Lamar Jackson

[Grim]

So a lot of opinions here but in short I’ll say this:

Using Rivers as an example of a guy in whom Joe is similar yet doesn’t have the same team as him is a bit far fetched. Rivers has had plenty of problems with teams he had to work with while at QB. He isn’t going to validate your argument. Chargers haven’t really built around him except for some weapons but the OL investment and RB investment has been mostly poor. He’s also had plenty of bad coaches so yeah.

Anyway on the subject of Lamar Jackson, of whom this topic refers, it’s way too early to say he’ll be better than Joe and way too early to say you don’t like him because he runs too much and can’t throw. On both sides I say give it time to see how he develops. There’s a lot I like about Lamar and he does things better than Joe already. Joe Flacco isn’t trash but I’m personally done with him because too much of the same story. We can blame everyone but it’s time to blame Flacco too. I just hope he plays well this year if and likely when he returns. If we want to make a run we need him to play well.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

Rodgers willed his team to win in game one this season. I know you aren’t comparing QBs, but a great qb makes the players around him better and Joe absolutely doesn’t do that. None of us ever said Joe sucks. Absolutely coaching and FO deserves part of the blame. Many of us are ready for a change though, including Harbaugh.

Not to derail this thread, but I’m a Harbaugh fan, but I also feel the need for change. Sometimes you need to derail the team to get going again and that includes your qb and head coach as well changing other players as well.

I think Harbaugh should go and let the next coach decide if they want Lamar or Joe or draft. But I’m just saying let’s not be dishonest and disrespectful to Joe for what he’s done and gone through - and yes he deserves part of the blame but not as much as I see
Being given

 

[rossihunter2]

No it isn’t safe to say, we’ve had one good coordinator for one year that we did really well, One for a couple years who everyone recognized was
Trash and Marty doesn’t seem to play to the strength of personnel and Joe, but loves Mobile qbs. This is the first year since 2014 that the weapons have been decent and the running game disappeared. Just stop it. You’re completely ignoring reality and circumstances because you’re impatient and fed up with the failures of the team and I sympathize but Joe is the LEAST of our problems.

so you're telling me im wrong but then not providing any evidence at all that joe is a good qb - you're giving us reasons why he MIGHT not be a bad qb but not actually articulating any reasons why joe is actually good

and the running game hasnt disappeared - it's only disappeared when flacco's in the game...

and i dont think youve read any of the stuff ive posted here since the board began because you'll find im an incredibly realistic poster - who's probably too patient with certain players and ideas

 

[3-4ravdef509]

So a lot of opinions here but in short I’ll say this:

Using Rivers as an example of a guy in whom Joe is similar yet doesn’t have the same team as him is a bit far fetched. Rivers has had plenty of problems with teams he had to work with while at QB. He isn’t going to validate your argument. Chargers haven’t really built around him except for some weapons but the OL investment and RB investment has been mostly poor. He’s also had plenty of bad coaches so yeah.

Anyway on the subject of Lamar Jackson, of whom this topic refers, it’s way too early to say he’ll be better than Joe and way too early to say you don’t like him because he runs too much and can’t throw. On both sides I say give it time to see how he develops. There’s a lot I like about Lamar and he does things better than Joe already. Joe Flacco isn’t trash but I’m personally done with him because too much of the same story. We can blame everyone but it’s time to blame Flacco too. I just hope he plays well this year if and likely when he returns. If we want to make a run we need him to play well.

I think Rivers has had slightly better numbers and has played in better offenses but worse overall teams.

 

[RavensMania]

I think Harbaugh should go and let the next coach decide if they want Lamar or Joe or draft. But I’m just saying let’s not be dishonest and disrespectful to Joe for what he’s done and gone through - and yes he deserves part of the blame but not as much as I see
Being given

No one is being disrespectful to Joe and if they are, they shouldn’t be. That I agree with.

 

[rossihunter2]

Like I said it’s really not better because it’s all RELATIVE. Even if all quarterback play is going up and is more available that just means the bad and middle tier qbs will look better than they used to in years past. And while a lot of teams have quarterbacks it’s nkt much more than years past and we don’t know for sure if all of these quarterbacks will work out long term either or if some will regress.

what a terrible argument - quarterbacks arent currency - there's no natural annual inflation
a good qb doesnt suddenly become bad just because a better qb comes along...

and we never know what's going to happen in the future sure... but the year 2018 has featured the best league-wide qb play probably ever - both in terms of elite consistency, unbelievable plays, general depth of talent and quality, scheme

and we've already seen a lot of good play from these young qbs:

Baker Mayfield is here to stay
Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen have all shown positives
Mitch Trubisky is here to stay
Patrick Mahomes is here to stay
Deshaun Watson is here to stay
Jared Goff is here to stay
Carson Wentz is here to stay
Dak Prescott has shown positives

that's at least 6 and maybe 11 qbs drafted in the last 3 years alone who are clearly the real deal

 

[3-4ravdef509]

so you're telling me im wrong but then not providing any evidence at all that joe is a good qb - you're giving us reasons why he MIGHT not be a bad qb but not actually articulating any reasons why joe is actually good

and the running game hasnt disappeared - it's only disappeared when flacco's in the game...

and i dont think youve read any of the stuff ive posted here since the board began because you'll find im an incredibly realistic poster - who's probably too patient with certain players and ideas

I’ve given you a logical explanation for the same set of facts and numbers we are both looking at. If you disagree with my arguments then you should examine it and point out where you think I’m going wrong, but don’t suggest I haven’t provided you with anything to substantiate my position. It’s a matter of perspective, and againthe number of teams with quarterbacks doesn’t seem to be much higher than years past and even if overall play is up you still have the best the worst and those in between - the bar for being a good quarterback will go up in the event that overall quarterback play goes up.

 

[rossihunter2]

Joe didn’t play the best vs the Steelers, but of course he was hurt and fuck on the first drive the piss poor like let him get hit like 4 plays in a row. I’m not saying the guy is infallible, but quarterbacks can for the most part only play as well as the players and coaching around them. Even Rodgers as good as he is can’t will his team to win. Joe has a lot going for him, if you want to scrap him fine, whatever but here’s what I’m saying : DONT tell me Joe sucks and give the coaching and FO a pass and make Joe the scapegoat. No one is explicitly doing that but at the same time everyone is basically saying yeah , the team didn’t help Joe enough but rather than demand the team actually build a good team around the quarterback, just throw him overboard. Joe has earned more respect than that.

because bad coaching and bad qb play arent mutually exclusive - it doesnt have to be either or - it can be both

nobody is scapegoating joe here - most of us want a massive offensive coaching changeup too

 

[Grim]

I think Rivers has had slightly better numbers and has played in better offenses but worse overall teams.

I’ll agree Rivers had better receivers but not OL nor RB and I’d even disagree on coordinators. I’d say the coordinators are even because Rivers had some eh coordinators IMO. Definitely better receivers though

 

[rossihunter2]

I agree, Joe isn’t great - I had him ranked like 10-12. But he’s not someone I would choose to casually throw out - especially for Lamar Jackson’s stupid Navy/Army offense we ran Sunday. We draft Patrick Mahomes then yeah, different story.

you only have at most 11 qbs ahead of joe?

Off the top of my head Ill see how many i can name:

Drew Brees
Pat Mahomes
Jared Goff
Aaron Rodgers
Phillip Rivers
Andrew Luck
Tom Brady
Matt Ryan
Carson Wentz
Kirk Cousins
Mitch Trubisky
Big Ben
Russel Wilson
Cam Newton
Deshaun Watson
Matt Stafford

those are just the inarguable ones
you could make arguments for more qbs to be ahead of him as well
10-12 is laughable - maybe in 2014 you could say he was 10-12 but not anymore

 

[RavensMania]

I’ve given you a logical explanation for the same set of facts and numbers we are both looking at. If you disagree with my arguments then you should examine it and point out where you think I’m going wrong, but don’t suggest I haven’t provided you with anything to substantiate my position. It’s a matter of perspective, and againthe number of teams with quarterbacks doesn’t seem to be much higher than years past and even if overall play is up you still have the best the worst and those in between - the bar for being a good quarterback will go up in the event that overall quarterback play goes up.

@rossihunter2 is one of the best posters we have on this board. Go through his othet posts to read through the, and you will see for yourself.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

what a terrible argument - quarterbacks arent currency - there's no natural annual inflation
a good qb doesnt suddenly become bad just because a better qb comes along...

and we never know what's going to happen in the future sure... but the year 2018 has featured the best league-wide qb play probably ever - both in terms of elite consistency, unbelievable plays, general depth of talent and quality, scheme

and we've already seen a lot of good play from these young qbs:

Baker Mayfield is here to stay
Josh Rosen, Sam Darnold, Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen have all shown positives
Mitch Trubisky is here to stay
Patrick Mahomes is here to stay
Deshaun Watson is here to stay
Jared Goff is here to stay
Carson Wentz is here to stay
Dak Prescott has shown positives

that's at least 6 and maybe 11 qbs drafted in the last 3 years alone who are clearly the real deal

We don’t knkw if Baker is here to stay, or Watson, Prescott. I am not predicting they will be total busts but we don’t know. Even Mahomes as great as he looks could regress, we don’t know. Let’s be real NFL history is filled with examples in one and two year wonders.

 

[rossihunter2]

I think Harbaugh should go and let the next coach decide if they want Lamar or Joe or draft. But I’m just saying let’s not be dishonest and disrespectful to Joe for what he’s done and gone through - and yes he deserves part of the blame but not as much as I see
Being given

nobody's being disrespectful or dishonest

 

[3-4ravdef509]

@rossihunter2 is one of the best posters we have on this board. Go through his othet posts to read through the, and you will see for yourself.

That’s fine , I’m not attacking him I’m saying he should actually try to attack my argument if he disagrees with it.

 

[RavensMania]

you only have at most 11 qbs ahead of joe?

Off the top of my head Ill see how many i can name:

Drew Brees
Pat Mahomes
Jared Goff
Aaron Rodgers
Phillip Rivers
Andrew Luck
Tom Brady
Matt Ryan
Carson Wentz
Kirk Cousins
Mitch Trubisky
Big Ben
Russel Wilson
Cam Newton
Deshaun Watson
Matt Stafford

those are just the inarguable ones
you could make arguments for more qbs to be ahead of him as well
10-12 is laughable - maybe in 2014 you could say he was 10-12 but not anymore

I agree, Flacco is bottom 3rd to me and that’s my honest opinion without going through all the qbs.

 

[3-4ravdef509]

you only have at most 11 qbs ahead of joe?

Off the top of my head Ill see how many i can name:

Drew Brees
Pat Mahomes
Jared Goff
Aaron Rodgers
Phillip Rivers
Andrew Luck
Tom Brady
Matt Ryan
Carson Wentz
Kirk Cousins
Mitch Trubisky
Big Ben
Russel Wilson
Cam Newton
Deshaun Watson
Matt Stafford

those are just the inarguable ones
you could make arguments for more qbs to be ahead of him as well
10-12 is laughable - maybe in 2014 you could say he was 10-12 but not anymore

Wouldn’t take Luck over him based on injury, but perhaps on talent and play. I wouldn’t take Watson yet , Newton, Cousins, Stafford or Trubisky yet

So that puts him 10-12 like I said.

 

[redrum52]

I agree, Flacco is bottom 3rd to me and that’s my honest opinion without going through all the qbs.

This is why I usually end my back and forth after that question. When you have an understanding of where the person is ranked by both parties, you can see where either side is coming from and decide if it the conversation is worth it.

 

[Militant X 1]

the last time joe elevated his game was 4 years ago...
and in the regular season he's consistently been outside the top 20 qbs in the league in a given year since 2014 also - you dont get to the postseason if your qb isnt playing well enough

at this point though i think we can safely say that its clear that flacco's inconsistency is embedded in himself and not the coaching staff - we've had the same flacco across multiple coordinators with various different tools - he's been the same the whole time.

and it really isnt similar in terms of qb play to 2010/2011 - it's not even close

ABSOLUTELY!

 

[rossihunter2]

I’ve given you a logical explanation for the same set of facts and numbers we are both looking at. If you disagree with my arguments then you should examine it and point out where you think I’m going wrong, but don’t suggest I haven’t provided you with anything to substantiate my position. It’s a matter of perspective, and againthe number of teams with quarterbacks doesn’t seem to be much higher than years past and even if overall play is up you still have the best the worst and those in between - the bar for being a good quarterback will go up in the event that overall quarterback play goes up.

those sections are not fixed though - its not like there's always a top 10 group of elite qbs, then the next 10 average guys and then a group of 12 bad qbs

better qbs coming in just makes the elite section larger and the good section larger - you end up in a league with fewer bad qbs not the same number...

and you literally gave me 2011 as an example and there are at least 5 more competent qb situations in 2018 than in 2011 - that's not insignificant - that means that the league has at least 15% better qb situations... likely more... 15% is a lot

you're arguments about qb play literally assumes that defences improve at the same rate - which quite clearly they dont - in fact they are getting worse - which makes the relative level of qb play even higher than it was before... that means more teams with good offensive play which invariably means a higher level of play all around the nfl

 

[rossihunter2]

I’ll agree Rivers had better receivers but not OL nor RB and I’d even disagree on coordinators. I’d say the coordinators are even because Rivers had some eh coordinators IMO. Definitely better receivers though

rivers has had some awful coordinators and head coaches