Lamar Jackson

[Simba]

100% - not advocating for a complete restructure like that - just suggesting that roman should have adapted better to the talent around lamar... we've got lots of speed and weapons in the passing game and our OL was in tatters - makes sense to get the ball into the hands of the guys who can make plays with it and mitigate the impact of the poor blocking

once miami put a spanner in the works and the offence stopped working so well, that was the perfect time to add more of these elements and spread the field and go to a quicker passing game to 1) get lamar back in rhythm and comfortable 2) make it harder for teams to give us cover-0 looks (because we're not behind the chains) and 3) to create more opportunities for receivers to get YAC and make plays

but roman did the opposite - we got tighter, we reduced the numbers of guys in the routes, we relied on extra blockers and low-threat receivers in the passing game and it only helped bring more defenders into the box which made running the ball even more difficult, and made blitz disguise easier for the defence (and harder to diagnose and beat for lamar)

Absolutely do not disagree whatsoever. For the sake of not repeating everything, I'll just reiterate my point above that it's an offensive failure all around and it's going to take more than game planning to reevaluate how you go forward. There should be wholesale adjustments whether that's coaching (not sure that's likely) or getting into the film room, evaluating what went wrong, and making those changes over an offseason. Just think the issues are a little larger scale than they're represented at times.

 

[purplepittabread88]

we all liked him when we signed him.

My freshmen year in college we played him (washington vs Utah)
I wasnt feeling well so I didn't go, but then I saw we had a huge lead over a ranked team so I got my ass to the stadium.
As I walk in and Huntley is scoring his first touchdown, a few minutes later my day was ruined.
Was happy when we got him though.

 

[rossihunter2]

It's a combo of both. As mentioned in another post, there's room to add some more of these quick passes to get Lamar into a rhythm. But we also can't ignore our reality in that we're just not good enough right now on the OL or in the RB room. You can scheme things up but defenses can adjust too and they've already shown how easy that is.

As Rossi said above, I do think Roman did fuck up in his answer to zero blitz being holding more blockers in and things like that. There's no debating that. But Lamar still needs to get out of his own head and take those opportunities when they're there instead of looking for the big hitter every time. It's just a colossal offensive failure from the coaching all the way to the players and it's not as simple as going to these sluggo type routes though. It's going to need a full reevaluation in the offseason whether that's Roman or whatever other OC.

i think orlovsky had the killer point here RE: how Roman failed Lamar and it was our lack of an answer

we want lamar to read hi-to-lo because that's how you keep defences on the back-foot and are able to create explosive plays and put defenders in binds

but what a lot of our passing concepts were missing (before we've moved almost exclusively to the short game with huntley and johnson) is that underneath option or outlet to relieve the pressure - in too many cases it just didnt exist (i imagine some of that is receivers not understanding who's hot or lamar not making receiver's hot - saw a great example of Big Ben yesterday pointing out to his receiver what makes him "hot" pre-snap)

too many times lamar's options with a crumbling OL was scramble and hope someone uncovers but that's difficult when the defence knows they are zero blitzing and can set the edge defenders to keep contain while rushing so that there's no exits out of the pocket - too often that slant in behind a blitzing slot or a drag or spot route behind a blitzing LB just wasnt there to hit

 

[Simba]

i think orlovsky had the killer point here RE: how Roman failed Lamar and it was our lack of an answer

we want lamar to read hi-to-lo because that's how you keep defences on the back-foot and are able to create explosive plays and put defenders in binds

but what a lot of our passing concepts were missing (before we've moved almost exclusively to the short game with huntley and johnson) is that underneath option or outlet to relieve the pressure - in too many cases it just didnt exist (i imagine some of that is receivers not understanding who's hot or lamar not making receiver's hot - saw a great example of Big Ben yesterday pointing out to his receiver what makes him "hot" pre-snap)

too many times lamar's options with a crumbling OL was scramble and hope someone uncovers but that's difficult when the defence knows they are zero blitzing and can set the edge defenders to keep contain while rushing so that there's no exits out of the pocket - too often that slant in behind a blitzing slot or a drag or spot route behind a blitzing LB just wasnt there to hit

Agreed. It's not like we need to go out and revamp the whole system but there needs to be a major philosophical change. A healthy Ravens team has the pieces to make this work. We just need to adjust based on how teams have been playing us now and open it up a little more.

 

[rossihunter2]

Absolutely do not disagree whatsoever. For the sake of not repeating everything, I'll just reiterate my point above that it's an offensive failure all around and it's going to take more than game planning to reevaluate how you go forward. There should be wholesale adjustments whether that's coaching (not sure that's likely) or getting into the film room, evaluating what went wrong, and making those changes over an offseason. Just think the issues are a little larger scale than they're represented at times.

definitely a schematic and philosophical overhaul required in the passing game

we just didnt have answers schematically (and execution-wise) to take advantage of opportunities defenders were giving us which shouldnt be the case with the skill position group we've got (and it's going to be even better with JK and Gus back next year too)

ironically, despite it being the biggest issue right now, the OL is the easiest part of this offence to fix - just need better and healthier players... the tricky part of this offseason is going to be how do we fix this passing game so that we have answers to cover-0 and things like (and not just answers but how do we overcome it and destroy it so that teams stop wanting to use it)

i think there's going to have to be a significant amount of self-evaluation going on - and that's the coaching staff first - and Harbs needs to look honestly at this offence and make a decision about whether he thinks Roman can fix these things because we know lamar isnt going anywhere so we know that part of this offseason is going to be about helping lamar overcome these things and we've got no evidence right now that roman can do that for him

 

[rossihunter2]

Agreed. It's not like we need to go out and revamp the whole system but there needs to be a major philosophical change. A healthy Ravens team has the pieces to make this work. We just need to adjust based on how teams have been playing us now and open it up a little more.

i do think Roman (if he stays) needs to fundamentally re-think the personnel we use - in the running game too...

it's unlikely we'll ever have an OL capable of dominating the way that 2019 front did which means that bringing extra defenders into the box with heavy sets is not necessarily that sustainable moving forwards - we've got Gus who always breaks tackles and JK who's amazing in space and difficult to corral also - would make a lot of sense to me to lighten the box moving forwards and stretch defences horizontally (and get more of our receiving weapons on the field) - there's definitely a role still for Ricard and Boyle but I think we have to re-think what our base offence looks like...

and i know 11 personnel was probably technically our base offence but we get into that package 3rd least in the NFL... we run the 2nd most 21 personnel and most 22 personnel in the league and i get that part of that's about Ricard but he's not a receiving weapon in the way that Kyle Juszczyk is (and the 49ers are for that reason the team that runs the most 21 personnel by far in the NFL... but notably they dont run much 22 at all) - we also lead the NFL by miles in 20 personnel which is an odd package lol but i imagine that's one we might see more with Dobbins and Gus next year

those heavier personnel packages are not helping us in the running game - we're pretty good running out of 12 personnel but the heavier we get (and ironically in all packages with ricard in the game) our YPC is not great - important contextually that some of that will be because the jumbo heavy sets come in shorter yardage and goal-line type offence but our ypc is best in 11, 12 and 01 personnel and it's ok in 21 personnel and we've been better in the passing game when we spread teams out too

just seems obvious to me what 1 simple easy change in terms of playcalling might be

 

[SepticeyePoe]

just seems obvious to me what 1 simple easy change in terms of playcalling might be

"Fix your running game with one weird trick. DCs hate him!"

 

[JAAM]

i do think Roman (if he stays) needs to fundamentally re-think the personnel we use - in the running game too...

it's unlikely we'll ever have an OL capable of dominating the way that 2019 front did which means that bringing extra defenders into the box with heavy sets is not necessarily that sustainable moving forwards - we've got Gus who always breaks tackles and JK who's amazing in space and difficult to corral also - would make a lot of sense to me to lighten the box moving forwards and stretch defences horizontally (and get more of our receiving weapons on the field) - there's definitely a role still for Ricard and Boyle but I think we have to re-think what our base offence looks like...

and i know 11 personnel was probably technically our base offence but we get into that package 3rd least in the NFL... we run the 2nd most 21 personnel and most 22 personnel in the league and i get that part of that's about Ricard but he's not a receiving weapon in the way that Kyle Juszczyk is (and the 49ers are for that reason the team that runs the most 21 personnel by far in the NFL... but notably they dont run much 22 at all) - we also lead the NFL by miles in 20 personnel which is an odd package lol but i imagine that's one we might see more with Dobbins and Gus next year

those heavier personnel packages are not helping us in the running game - we're pretty good running out of 12 personnel but the heavier we get (and ironically in all packages with ricard in the game) our YPC is not great - important contextually that some of that will be because the jumbo heavy sets come in shorter yardage and goal-line type offence but our ypc is best in 11, 12 and 01 personnel and it's ok in 21 personnel and we've been better in the passing game when we spread teams out too

just seems obvious to me what 1 simple easy change in terms of playcalling might be

What percentage do you give Roman staying as our OC?

 

[rossihunter2]

What percentage do you give Roman staying as our OC?

no idea tbh i keep flip-flopping either way - so much of it will depend on factors we have no access to like lamar's feelings about the offence and roman because Lamar doesn't air grievances in public at all (doesnt air anything lol)

but if i have to... im gonna say 70% probability he stays

 

[JAAM]

no idea tbh i keep flip-flopping either way - so much of it will depend on factors we have no access to like lamar's feelings about the offence and roman because Lamar doesn't air grievances in public at all (doesnt air anything lol)

but if i have to... im gonna say 70% probability he stays

Nooooo!! I was hoping it would be a 70% the other way lol!

 

[ravenslord]

no idea tbh i keep flip-flopping either way - so much of it will depend on factors we have no access to like lamar's feelings about the offence and roman because Lamar doesn't air grievances in public at all (doesnt air anything lol)

but if i have to... im gonna say 70% probability he stays

I give it 50-50

 

[SaltyDog]

i do think Roman (if he stays) needs to fundamentally re-think the personnel we use - in the running game too...

it's unlikely we'll ever have an OL capable of dominating the way that 2019 front did which means that bringing extra defenders into the box with heavy sets is not necessarily that sustainable moving forwards - we've got Gus who always breaks tackles and JK who's amazing in space and difficult to corral also - would make a lot of sense to me to lighten the box moving forwards and stretch defences horizontally (and get more of our receiving weapons on the field) - there's definitely a role still for Ricard and Boyle but I think we have to re-think what our base offence looks like...

and i know 11 personnel was probably technically our base offence but we get into that package 3rd least in the NFL... we run the 2nd most 21 personnel and most 22 personnel in the league and i get that part of that's about Ricard but he's not a receiving weapon in the way that Kyle Juszczyk is (and the 49ers are for that reason the team that runs the most 21 personnel by far in the NFL... but notably they dont run much 22 at all) - we also lead the NFL by miles in 20 personnel which is an odd package lol but i imagine that's one we might see more with Dobbins and Gus next year

those heavier personnel packages are not helping us in the running game - we're pretty good running out of 12 personnel but the heavier we get (and ironically in all packages with ricard in the game) our YPC is not great - important contextually that some of that will be because the jumbo heavy sets come in shorter yardage and goal-line type offence but our ypc is best in 11, 12 and 01 personnel and it's ok in 21 personnel and we've been better in the passing game when we spread teams out too

just seems obvious to me what 1 simple easy change in terms of playcalling might be

Good stuff there.

 

[SaltyDog]

no idea tbh i keep flip-flopping either way - so much of it will depend on factors we have no access to like lamar's feelings about the offence and roman because Lamar doesn't air grievances in public at all (doesnt air anything lol)

but if i have to... im gonna say 70% probability he stays

IMO I think it’s higher. Given all the injuries and Covid crap both of our coordinators have had to deal with I think it’s tough to judge his performance. I mean I bitch about his play calling sometimes, but it’s week 18 and we are still mathematically alive for a playoff spot.

 

[rossihunter2]

Nooooo!! I was hoping it would be a 70% the other way lol!

i mean i hope we move on too
but I think it's highly likely the organisation thinks more highly of him than outsiders do, they've got a whole load of stats they can point to as being successful even in spite of the injuries and of course the injuries themselves

i think it would be an interesting, exciting and decisive choice to replace him but im just not confident the ravens will make that decision - i think they'll probably look at the early parts of the year as well as the competitiveness of the team late in the year and think they can build on it next year

Harbs will have to make that decision and if I'm honest - he's probably already made it (1 way or the other) and if Roman's going to be gone it's likely going to happen soon after our season ends (roman was promoted only 5 days after the loss to the chargers in the playoffs lamar's rookie year)

1 way or another this isnt going to linger long beyond the season

 

[rossihunter2]

IMO I think it’s higher. Given all the injuries and Covid crap both of our coordinators have had to deal with I think it’s tough to judge his performance. I mean I bitch about his play calling sometimes, but it’s week 18 and we are still mathematically alive for a playoff spot.

that's why i say 70% and think it's likely he stays - but im not as confident in it because of a few reasons:
1) it's rare for an OC to make it to year 4 with their team as a general trend for various reasons
2) we've had some defensive issues posed to us and we've been unable to solve them
3) there are still issues with play design in the passing game and philosophically we've seen that the running game cannot carry us like it did in '19 and '20 - which is mostly why we promoted him in 2019 in the first place

would be very not surprised if he's still the OC for 2022
would be not surprised (but would be a little excited) if he's not the OC for 2022

 

[SaltyDog]

that's why i say 70% and think it's likely he stays - but im not as confident in it because of a few reasons:
1) it's rare for an OC to make it to year 4 with their team as a general trend for various reasons
2) we've had some defensive issues posed to us and we've been unable to solve them
3) there are still issues with play design in the passing game and philosophically we've seen that the running game cannot carry us like it did in '19 and '20 - which is mostly why we promoted him in 2019 in the first place

would be very not surprised if he's still the OC for 2022
would be not surprised (but would be a little excited) if he's not the OC for 2022

Yeah I won’t be disappointed if he’s gone, but I just think unless he leaves on his own, he’ll be here in 22.

Philosophically I think Harbs would have loved to return to 2019 and be a run dominant offense. But when you lose Dobbins, Edwards, and Stanley before the season starts and then lose other O linemen to injury and Covid throughout the season it forces you to modify the philosophy.

Where I have issues with Roman is with his play calls when Lamar is at QB vs. Huntley or Johnson.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

I'll chime in and say I think most coaches and players are going to come back. This was not the season anyone thought it was going to be and that has to leave a bad taste in the mouth for them. If money and opportunity allow us to keep just about everyone, I think they do; furthermore, I'd argue that most of them want another go at what I feel like is a Mulligan of a season.

 

[rossihunter2]

I'll chime in and say I think most coaches and players are going to come back. This was not the season anyone thought it was going to be and that has to leave a bad taste in the mouth for them. If money and opportunity allow us to keep just about everyone, I think they do; furthermore, I'd argue that most of them want another go at what I feel like is a Mulligan of a season.

sure - only thing i think might play into this (at least with Roman) is that it seemed like 2020 might have been the mulligan when we look at the passing game and how it didnt really develop from 2019 and we blamed that on OL injuries and then trotted out something even less effective with even more injuries in 2021

at what point do we stop blaming injuries and covid on the lack of schematic development in the passing game

 

[ravenslord]

I'll chime in and say I think most coaches and players are going to come back. This was not the season anyone thought it was going to be and that has to leave a bad taste in the mouth for them. If money and opportunity allow us to keep just about everyone, I think they do; furthermore, I'd argue that most of them want another go at what I feel like is a Mulligan of a season.

Let’s face it, if we were healthy with Stanley , Peters , Dobbins , etc we would probably be the top seed in the AFC playoff hunt right now .

 

[D1City55]

definitely a schematic and philosophical overhaul required in the passing game

we just didnt have answers schematically (and execution-wise) to take advantage of opportunities defenders were giving us which shouldnt be the case with the skill position group we've got (and it's going to be even better with JK and Gus back next year too)

ironically, despite it being the biggest issue right now, the OL is the easiest part of this offence to fix - just need better and healthier players... the tricky part of this offseason is going to be how do we fix this passing game so that we have answers to cover-0 and things like (and not just answers but how do we overcome it and destroy it so that teams stop wanting to use it)

i think there's going to have to be a significant amount of self-evaluation going on - and that's the coaching staff first - and Harbs needs to look honestly at this offence and make a decision about whether he thinks Roman can fix these things because we know lamar isnt going anywhere so we know that part of this offseason is going to be about helping lamar overcome these things and we've got no evidence right now that roman can do that for him

IMO, more than anything, they need 5 guys on the OL who can flat out hold their blocks against four and five man fronts. The Ravens earlier in the season relied on extra blockers with Ricard and a TE to block the blitz, it worked against Denver who blitzed us at a rate of 56% but Cincinnati was the first team to adjust to this and had 6 DBs back and pretty much bet on them covering longer then we could find a guy open. They came in with a variety of looks and once Mekari went down the OL seemed to follow suit. If they can have 5 guys who can block without the need of having too many extra blockers it will make a world of a difference.

As far as Cover 0 goes, that Dolphins game Miami decided to play the sticks and make it hard for us to throw short crossing patterns with a LB and CB crashing down on those slant routes. Watkins decided to have a nightmare game by pulling up on a TD pass against the blitz(Good throw given the pressure) and then fumbling on a slant that was returned for a TD. I liked some of the screens we saw given how hard Miami was playing against the sticks, some of it worked and better blocking on one play and better vision by Duvernay and he could've had a huge play. Against Pittsburgh, I thought we had some success against the cover 0 looks we saw. Pittsburgh threw a bunch of delayed blitzes that we had trouble with and I think on some other plays the OL didn't do a good job with zone blitz packages we saw. Outside of the Miami game, I don't think the cover 0 looks were that big of a problem.

I agree that Roman needs to be more creative, that's #2 on the list IMO but they brought in a passing game coordinator this season, I wonder how much of the onus for the passing game falls on him compared to Roman. Roman calls the plays but it's not only him we have to single out here. I think for as long as we've all been watching the team it's just lacked creativity in the passing game, you made a good point about Harbaugh needing to do self-reflection, I couldn't agree more.