The 2023 Offseason Thread

[RavensMania]

So they would give say 200 guaranteed to Lamar's agent but not to Lamar?

What gives you an impression Lamar would agree to less just because agent told h8m so?

I just don't think he would be asking for a fully guaranteed contract if that is in fact what is happening. The NFLPA is pushing hard for guaranteed money to become more of a thing and that seems to be what is happening

 

[RavensMania]

As far as QBs go, they are actually pretty inept, historically. Selection and management of QBs.
Just look at what happened with Joe. He's been overpaid on the count of 4 games run, rather than paid what he was really worth. The contract was bad, too - done in a way that they had to restructure it at the point when it was clear Joe is done, not even capable of his old standard of play. Also, after giving him handsome bucks, they decided to trade his best WR. Kept drafting scrubs, continuing to tie Joe's hands, really.

All that screams ineptness. It may not be all on FO, Bisciotti had to have a hand in those decisions, just like he has now.

definitely a bad structure, but if I recall the Ravens were it cap hell and lost a lot of players after the super bowl also, which contributed to the contract structure.

 

[allblackraven]

I just don't think he would be asking for a fully guaranteed contract if that is in fact what is happening. The NFLPA is pushing hard for guaranteed money to become more of a thing and that seems to be what is happening

I don't think he ever asked for full guarantees but am fairly sure he asked for more money than Watson got.

 

[Tyler]

Me likey likey

I don’t want to get ahead of myself AT ALL, but dare I say that I see a little bit of AB in Zay Flowers’ game? His body control, fluidity, game speed. He looks the part of a potential elite NFL slot guy.

 

[purplepittabread88]

I might be in the minority, but I also think the prospect of Lamar playing on the tag is basically untenable at this point. Not because of the money, but because of the distraction. I'm not convinced either side wants to go through another year like 2022. It's reached it's breaking point to me, and a decision needs to be made one way or another.

right I feel its like your friend complaining about his girlfriend nonstop... either Man Up and break up with her or just fucking shut up and fix ya damn relationship

(clearly dealing with personal equivalents right now... lol)

 

[purplepittabread88]

That's a good question, because I have no idea. They left their QB without either of those for 2 years during which they failed to sign him, despite all the big talking. Now they seem to be eager to find a quality on coaching side and are promising the WR room overhaul but we still have no fucking idea who our QB really is.

I'm sick of all of it.

we can at least all agree hopefully the train isn't too late
yes they know what they did wrong now, but we have less money and time to fix it.

 

[rossihunter2]

Agree, however I think there's no chance they go into the draft pigeon-holing themselves into "must take" a WR in the first round. I think there's plenty of scenarios where they don't.

Especially given how nuts this CB class looks

 

[rossihunter2]

Right but his value goes up if he plays well, and could potentially go up further if other guys (Burrow, Herbert, Hurts) sign first.

I think he's playing for the Ravens this year 100%, because they won't know until at least September whether or not they've got a realistic shot to sign him long term. And by that point, its basically too late to trade.

Deadline to work out a long term deal in 2023 is July when they’re no longer allowed to negotiate and he has to play on the tag for 2023…

I’d imagine that would potentially be when trade talk quietens down for the year too if he’s not allowed to sign a new deal?

 

[rossihunter2]

And that's where we differ. Teams are absolutely going to want to pay him, and they'll probably want to pay him more than the Ravens are offering in the current state at least. However, I don't think what the Ravens have reportedly offered is an insult or anything. It's reasonable. And that's also not to say Lamar is dumb to not accept - he's well within his right to push for what he wants and I support that side as well.

I guess I just struggle with the idea that some team out there is just going to give him exactly what he wants on a contract and it's all hunky dory and done just like that. The reported gap between what Lamar supposedly wants and what offers the Ravens (and likely other teams as well if it gets to that point) are presenting is pretty significant. A team coming in and giving Lamar what he's assumed to want reshapes the league entirely. I guess I just don't agree that this is an easy contract from any team's perspective. Teams have given out dumb, big contracts before but the assumption with Lamar just seems far too grandiose for me because this is significantly more money.

Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm not.

Also the fact that… trading Lamar may get rid of some “problems” with cap management

But it also leads to your talented team taking a dirt nap and your chance of being a playoff contender is basically erased overnight because unless you’re trading with the Texans, there’s no shot you’re getting one of the top QBs and you’re never getting a high pick when Lamar governs how high your pick is because he’s an elite QB and this front office and coaching staff are way too good to have a team be bad enough to get a top 5 pick… the only times in the last 20 years we’ve got close were 2007 when we acquired the 8th pick in the 2008 draft and 2015 when we acquired the 6th pick in the 2016 draft

And in 2007 the team was a mess and about to go in transition

And in 2015 half the team, including the franchise QB was injured and our roster was lacking in high-end talent (and we still didn’t get a top 5 pick)

 

[rmcjacket23]

Boldin should have stayed. 2013 was really ugly, Flacco trying to force everything to Smith. We could have kept him if we hadn't given Flacco such a huge deal. And that's what's gonna happen now. If we are to sign Lamar expect Gus or Clark, or both to be traded. That's the kind of stuff that will (sad or not) happen. And that's a warning. Should we take the risk of going into our 2013-2018 era? or should we let Lamar go?

But who cares if Boldin stayed? He wasn't staying for five years. He would have 100% been gone by the end of 2014 at the latest. And if he was here in 2014, Steve Smith wouldn't have been. And we were good in 2014, so I don't know why people bitch about Boldin anyway. Its purely nostalgia. Basically people cared about Boldin staying more than they cared about the Ravens winning. Says something about fans...

Spoiler alert... if we trade Lamar tomorrow, Clark is probably still getting shipped out, and Edwards probably wouldn't be back either. Just because you have cap space doesn't mean you're going to pay everybody. They're still going to look at the cap hit and the contract and say "what am I getting for this". Edwards is a 28 year old complementary RB, off a major injury, who's due to make $4.3M. That's not going to happen. High end RBs don't even make that in a lot of cases.

Clark is going to be gone mostly because he wants a raise or to be traded. Just like what happened six months ago. He's only due $3.5M this year, and they have two better Safeties on the roster already. If he stays this year, he's 100% walking in FA next year, so the time to get value for him is now.

Again, those two things are largely unimpacted by whether Lamar is tagged, traded or extended.

The guys that could be impacted by that are the likes of Campbell, Zeitler, Powers, Peters, Pierce, etc. Guys that maybe you keep if Lamar isn't here, but have decreased chances of staying if he's tagged.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Deadline to work out a long term deal in 2023 is July when they’re no longer allowed to negotiate and he has to play on the tag for 2023…

I’d imagine that would potentially be when trade talk quietens down for the year too if he’s not allowed to sign a new deal?

Right but I guess I view it as even though they can't sign him in 2023, you'll have an idea if during training camp or preseason whether you've bridged the cap and can sign in January/February.

Assuming Lamar goes same route, by September, he's not negotiating anymore anyway, even for an extension to be signed in February.

So yeah, maybe the deadline is July for this year, but you pretty much know from September through at least probably mid-January, there's nothing to discuss.

My suspicion would be if they get to mid-July and don't quite hammer out a deal, but they're "close", they'll have confidence they can sign him next Winter. If they're not close, then yes, tag and trade becomes likely for 2024.

 

[Thezone27]

But who cares if Boldin stayed? He wasn't staying for five years. He would have 100% been gone by the end of 2014 at the latest. And if he was here in 2014, Steve Smith wouldn't have been. And we were good in 2014, so I don't know why people bitch about Boldin anyway. Its purely nostalgia. Basically people cared about Boldin staying more than they cared about the Ravens winning. Says something about fans...

Spoiler alert... if we trade Lamar tomorrow, Clark is probably still getting shipped out, and Edwards probably wouldn't be back either. Just because you have cap space doesn't mean you're going to pay everybody. They're still going to look at the cap hit and the contract and say "what am I getting for this". Edwards is a 28 year old complementary RB, off a major injury, who's due to make $4.3M. That's not going to happen. High end RBs don't even make that in a lot of cases.

Clark is going to be gone mostly because he wants a raise or to be traded. Just like what happened six months ago. He's only due $3.5M this year, and they have two better Safeties on the roster already. If he stays this year, he's 100% walking in FA next year, so the time to get value for him is now.

Again, those two things are largely unimpacted by whether Lamar is tagged, traded or extended.

The guys that could be impacted by that are the likes of Campbell, Zeitler, Powers, Peters, Pierce, etc. Guys that maybe you keep if Lamar isn't here, but have decreased chances of staying if he's tagged.

Not Clark. No one uses strong safeties anymore. He is more valuable to us then he is on the market.

 

[Tank]

I think a lot of people also overestimate how dumb teams are as well, personally. A significant number of the owners were pissed at the Browns for Watson and I don't think they're going to go down that road.

Again, could be wrong, but just doesn't seem realistic all things considered.

It's what's been said from the beginning; The Watson deal was always an outlier, an anomoly, and never considered a mark to reset the market. Anyone thinking otherwise is just ignoring facts.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

It's what's been said from the beginning; The Watson deal was always an outlier, an anomoly, and never considered a mark to reset the market. Anyone thinking otherwise is just ignoring facts.

A good QB hitting a competitive market will get a fully guaranteed deal. Not just Watson but Cousins also got one. Lamar's better than both, if he rode out 2 tags and hit the market he'd definitely get it.

A trade makes it a little less likely, but if Lamar made 100% guarantees his criteria when choosing between suitors, then I think he'd get it.

From a practical position, giving Lamar a fully guaranteed deal wouldn't be much of a competitive disadvantage. Good QBs almost always earn their full salaries. Except in the case of catastrophic injury (which didn't hurt Dak) or when a bad QB gets a huge contract (Wentz, Goff etc) teams don't usually look to get out from their QB contracts. Not with QBs of Lamar's quality anyway.

What's hurting the Ravens is that Bisciotti has chosen to carry the owner's water in standing against guarantees.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Not Clark. No one uses strong safeties anymore. He is more valuable to us then he is on the market.

I agree, but he wants a pay raise and he wants to be able to find out what the market is for him. And I think Ravens are 100% going to allow him to do that. They'd also likely be able to re-sign Geno Stone to close to the veteran minimum, which would be like 25% of the cost of Clark or less. So its pretty much a no-brainer I think.

 

[BoredMarine13]

Especially given how nuts this CB class looks

I would not be upset at taking a CB early. Beyond Marlon, there’s not much there , especially with MPs status up in the air.

 

[Thezone27]

I agree, but he wants a pay raise and he wants to be able to find out what the market is for him. And I think Ravens are 100% going to allow him to do that. They'd also likely be able to re-sign Geno Stone to close to the veteran minimum, which would be like 25% of the cost of Clark or less. So its pretty much a no-brainer I think.

I guess. They'll probably shop him, but he won't end up getting traded.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I guess. They'll probably shop him, but he won't end up getting traded.

Will see. Have no idea what his value to the market is. If we were able to get like a day 3 pick for him (maybe a 5th or 6th rounder), that would be a win.

 

[RavensMania]

I don't think he ever asked for full guarantees but am fairly sure he asked for more money than Watson got.

I don't have a problem with him getting more. He deserves it.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

Especially given how nuts this CB class looks

In terms of drafting a good player that aligns with team needs, CB looks very sensible.

However, if we're paying Lamar $45M there will be no money to add a FA WR ( not that there are many good ones available). I just don't see how adding a (potentially) slightly better corner helps the team more than adding a (potentially) slightly worse receiver.

This year's FA corner group is much better (and cheaper) than the FA WRs too, which should factor into the decision.

It would also end any chance of getting a long term deal done with Lamar by sending the message that the team still values defense over offense.
All the big recent moves - Marcus W, Hamilton, Roquan have been defensive. Even Linderbaum is a great run blocker who struggles with pass pro. That's not building the team with the QB in mind.

On the other hand, if Lamar's gone, we can draft every position.