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The Tucker, the Refs and the Fish and Chips

Tank

Hall of Famer
Do you guys think it's Harbaugh handcuffing the OC when we have a lead? Or is it the OC being new trying to conserve the lead and trying not to mess up?
IMO Monken is doing what they can with where they are at in the process. We still see too much confusion and miscommunication between Lamar and receivers, and things all over just look broken sometimes.

Hopefully things smooth out soon and Lamar grabs the bull by the balls and gets things rolling like they should be.
 

GodIsGreat

Veteran
Do you guys think it's Harbaugh handcuffing the OC when we have a lead? Or is it the OC being new trying to conserve the lead and trying not to mess up?
Its most likely harbaugh look at monken previous offenses in the league compared to how conservative he is now
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
It's Harbaugh. Why else would pass first OCs like Trestman, Mornhinweg and Monken all coincidentally become run run pass guys as soon as they get to Batimore?
Good lord:
a) Who told you that Trestman and Marty were run/run/pass guys in Baltimore? I don't see any data points or film that suggests that. Pretty much the most pass-heavy offenses in the history of the franchise existed with those two guys as OC. Was a very sharp criticism of both of them, especially considering the QB and lack of weapons.
b) Would point out that Monken's offenses pretty much always are based on personnel. He was a run-dominant OC in Georgia for three years. And that's in College, where throwing the ball around the yard on the regular is the norm.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
It's Harbaugh. Why else would pass first OCs like Trestman, Mornhinweg and Monken all coincidentally become run run pass guys as soon as they get to Batimore?
Trestman and Mornhingweg didn't run enough. That was a huge complaint with them. Balance was just way off.
 

QtR Nevermore

Pro Bowler
Good lord:
a) Who told you that Trestman and Marty were run/run/pass guys in Baltimore? I don't see any data points or film that suggests that. Pretty much the most pass-heavy offenses in the history of the franchise existed with those two guys as OC. Was a very sharp criticism of both of them, especially considering the QB and lack of weapons.
b) Would point out that Monken's offenses pretty much always are based on personnel. He was a run-dominant OC in Georgia for three years. And that's in College, where throwing the ball around the yard on the regular is the norm.
a) Trestman and Marty passed for the first few weeks before they went to more of a run heavy plan, presumably on Harbaugh's orders, (which no one minded at the time because they were both horrible OCs who should never have been hired and there passing games were never any good anyway. ) Just pointing out a pattern.

b) Why are the Ravens running so much if Monken is driven by his personnel? The Ravens clearly have talent more suited to the passing game - the WRs are a better group than the RBs, the TEs are all pass catchers first, blockers second and the O line seems more suited to pass blocking.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
a) Trestman and Marty passed for the first few weeks before they went to more of a run heavy plan, presumably on Harbaugh's orders, (which no one minded at the time because they were both horrible OCs who should never have been hired and there passing games were never any good anyway. ) Just pointing out a pattern.

b) Why are the Ravens running so much if Monken is driven by his personnel? The Ravens clearly have talent more suited to the passing game - the WRs are a better group than the RBs, the TEs are all pass catchers first, blockers second and the O line seems more suited to pass blocking.
Because they're too conservative in the second half playing with leads, which has been basically every game.
And I think their run game is somewhat inflated by Lamar designed runs or scrambles, which will be a staple in any offense he runs with any OC. Otherwise I think they're leaning on RBs a little bit less than previously.

Also would at least partially point out that you had weeks of overlap where some of your receivers weren't on the field (Odell missed two games, Bateman and Andrews each one), and weeks of overlap where your Oline was playing 2nd or 3rd stringers, who obviously aren't as good in pass protection. I'm not sure Mekari, Faalele, or Mustipher are guys that really instill confidence in pass protection at this point. You could do worse, but those aren't guys you want playing multiple games.

I would also point out that, while I agree with the majority that we're far too conservative in play calling in the second half, it has, largely, been effective. At least from a W/L perspective. We were run heavy in the second half against Houston, Cincy, Cleveland and Tennessee, and we did win all of those games. The only game where I thought it backfired a bit was in Pittsburgh, and I had no confidence in our pass protection in that game.

The difference is a more dominant running game would "put these games away", so we didn't have to put pressure on the defense (ala 2019). We just don't have that.
 

QtR Nevermore

Pro Bowler
I wouldn't say it's been working. The conservative approach gave away two games we should have won and it made all the others closer than they should have been. The W/L record might look uglier if Cincinnati and Tenessee had had their starting QBs healthy for the final stretch of those games too.

It's more like self sabotage than a winning strategy.
 

drjohnnyfever

Pro Bowler
It's Harbaugh. Why else would pass first OCs like Trestman, Mornhinweg and Monken all coincidentally become run run pass guys as soon as they get to Batimore?
Agree. JH likes a two score lead. When he achieves that he wants run plays because a ball in the air is a potential TO, hence, team philosophy, take the foot off the pedal and play safe. Utterly stupid. Go with what is working until the other team is able to stop you.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I wouldn't say it's been working. The conservative approach gave away two games we should have won and it made all the others closer than they should have been. The W/L record might look uglier if Cincinnati and Tenessee had had their starting QBs healthy for the final stretch of those games too.

It's more like self sabotage than a winning strategy.
I mean... was Indy a conservative approach? I didn't come out of that game with that takeaway at all. We were losing for more of that game than we were winning. It may have been conservative in the context of the weather in that game, considering it was raining for half of it, but I don't think anybody could argue conservatism was the reason for that loss.

While I wasn't super thrilled with the play calling against PIT, would point out that was one of the least run-based approaches we had taken in a game all year. We threw it significantly more than we ran it, and certainly true in the 2nd half also. We lost that game to due a combination of some egregious, game altering dropped passes, and just overall sloppy control of the ball (ugly INTs and fumbles).

I actually think it would be really hard to correlate either of our losses with conservative game plans. Those second half conservative plans have mostly been in games we've won, but allowed the teams to "get back into it" more than they should have.

Would say I think that's also isolated mostly to Cincy and Tennessee. Houston game wasn't really "locked up" until end of the third quarter, and Cleveland just had such atrocious QB play that the game was never really in doubt post-halftime.
 

Tank

Hall of Famer
I wouldn't say it's been working. The conservative approach gave away two games we should have won and it made all the others closer than they should have been. The W/L record might look uglier if Cincinnati and Tenessee had had their starting QBs healthy for the final stretch of those games too.

It's more like self sabotage than a winning strategy.

I agree we should stay aggressive and put teams away, but turnovers and poor player execution on offense were responsible for the 2 losses, not the game plan. If players had done their jobs we’re undefeated.

It was stressed time and again that Monken plays to what he sees as the strengths(ergo avoiding weaknesses)of his personnel at any given time.
 

QtR Nevermore

Pro Bowler
I agree we should stay aggressive and put teams away, but turnovers and poor player execution on offense were responsible for the 2 losses, not the game plan. If players had done their jobs we’re undefeated.

It was stressed time and again that Monken plays to what he sees as the strengths(ergo avoiding weaknesses)of his personnel at any given time.
If every player had done their job correctly every single team in history would have won all their games.

I never buy it when coaches blame everything on 'execution'. Humans make mistakes and coaches have to build that into their plans. There's less margin for error on 2 yd runs and 3 yd passes, which puts more pressure on the players to 'execute' flawlessly.

Everyone said Monken adapts to his players, but does the evidence back that up so far? Not entirely, in my view.

It's early days and Monken's done a lot of good things. I'd just like to see them use the passing game to attack a bit further downfield & on early downs and late in games, like a lot of other Ravens fans.
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer
I don't think RB is a position the Ravens try to address via trade. For me it's CB, DL/DE, OL depth in that order. Wonder if Marcus Peters could be targeted? 5M contract almost 1/2 paid. Don't know how the Raiders feel about 3-3, but their odds are pretty long. They might be receptive to a late round pick if they are below .500 at the deadline.
Agreed rather go defense. I know we are #1 in sacks which is great work by mcdonald for sure but how much of that comes from actual pass rushers? I just think when we play a good offense, shit gonna look a lot different with all the lb and cb blitzes.. im not sold ok stepehens so i wouldnt mind another cb
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
If every player had done their job correctly every single team in history would have won all their games.

I never buy it when coaches blame everything on 'execution'. Humans make mistakes and coaches have to build that into their plans. There's less margin for error on 2 yd runs and 3 yd passes, which puts more pressure on the players to 'execute' flawlessly.

Everyone said Monken adapts to his players, but does the evidence back that up so far? Not entirely, in my view.

It's early days and Monken's done a lot of good things. I'd just like to see them use the passing game to attack a bit further downfield & on early downs and late in games, like a lot of other Ravens fans.
I think you'd have a hard time showing me what "baking lack of execution" into a plan looks like.

And the irony is... the solution to lack of execution, in the PIT game, for example, would be run the ball MORE, not less. The backup plan for receivers dropping passes is to stop throwing them the ball.

The execution that plagued us in that game, for example, is high-school level execution. Basic fundamental football, like catching the ball. You literally can't plan your way out of failure to execute baseline football. We're not talking about like an Olineman failing to execute a combo block after pulling across the line of scrimmage.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
I think you'd have a hard time showing me what "baking lack of execution" into a plan looks like.

And the irony is... the solution to lack of execution, in the PIT game, for example, would be run the ball MORE, not less. The backup plan for receivers dropping passes is to stop throwing them the ball.

The execution that plagued us in that game, for example, is high-school level execution. Basic fundamental football, like catching the ball. You literally can't plan your way out of failure to execute baseline football. We're not talking about like an Olineman failing to execute a combo block after pulling across the line of scrimmage.
or maybe not throw a shuffle pass???

Agree, you can't have a "lack of execution" plan. lmao
 

QtR Nevermore

Pro Bowler
I think you'd have a hard time showing me what "baking lack of execution" into a plan looks like.

By aiming for bigger chunks of yardage.

If you call a very straightforward between the tackles run (of the type that has been gaining 3 yds all day) and follow to with a pass to Zay at the LoS ( a play that hasn't yielded many big gains so far) there's very little margin of error to allow for eg. a missed block (lack of execution). You need both plays to succeed to get to a manageable third down.

With more deep passes you can mess one play up and still gain the necessary yardage to keep your offense on track.
 

GodIsGreat

Veteran
why go defense? last superbowl the #1 defense and #2 defense of 2022 got 38 and 35 dropped on them, our defense cannot carry this lackluster offense in the postszn against mahomes,tua the elite qbs, go out and get some more offensive firepower
 

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
I wouldn't say it's been working. The conservative approach gave away two games we should have won and it made all the others closer than they should have been. The W/L record might look uglier if Cincinnati and Tenessee had had their starting QBs healthy for the final stretch of those games too.

It's more like self sabotage than a winning strategy.
I would say 8 drops cost the Pitt game combined with Lamar throwing a pick and snapping it when he should not. None of those are emblematic of a conservative playcalling approach. In fact they are more symptomatic of the opposite.
 
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