The Tucker, the Refs and the Fish and Chips

[Truth]

I don’t think anyone is suggesting we give up on the short and intermediate passing game. That has been working pretty well. The discussion was around the deep passing game and why we haven’t done more of it. My point is simply that after Zay there is a pretty steep drop off in production from the other wr’s. And personally I don’t care whether we win by throwing bombs or whether we throw 5 yard out routes, and run the ball. As long as we win. I do think though that this offense will evolve into something much better then what we’ve seen so far.

Ah, good to hear. I figured with you saying that you can't have a deep passing game that it was an advocation to lean away from it. Fair enough. That said, there is also a steep drop in opportunities. With the numbers tallied after this week, Bateman and Beckham Jr. have 8 combined targets beyond 10 yards, 4 each, which is an alarming low number. For context, in the intermediate range alone, their 2 targets each are good for 134th in the league through 6 games, which is a massive tie for second to last place. I've always had tame expectations of Beckham Jr. going into the year. But you can't produce if you're not used. Definitely with you there regarding the wins, however.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

I don't think RB is a position the Ravens try to address via trade. For me it's CB, DL/DE, OL depth in that order. Wonder if Marcus Peters could be targeted? 5M contract almost 1/2 paid. Don't know how the Raiders feel about 3-3, but their odds are pretty long. They might be receptive to a late round pick if they are below .500 at the deadline.

 

[Jacquouille]

I don't think RB is a position the Ravens try to address via trade. For me it's CB, DL/DE, OL depth in that order. Wonder if Marcus Peters could be targeted? 5M contract almost 1/2 paid. Don't know how the Raiders feel about 3-3, but their odds are pretty long. They might be receptive to a late round pick if they are below .500 at the deadline.

Peters has been absolutely unplayable. Pains me to say it but he's just cooked

 

[SaltyDog]

Ah, good to hear. I figured with you saying that you can't have a deep passing game that it was an advocation to lean away from it. Fair enough. That said, there is also a steep drop in opportunities. With the numbers tallied after this week, Bateman and Beckham Jr. have 8 combined targets beyond 10 yards, 4 each, which is an alarming low number. For context, in the intermediate range alone, their 2 targets each are good for 134th in the league through 6 games, which is a massive tie for second to last place. I've always had tame expectations of Beckham Jr. going into the year. But you can't produce if you're not used. Definitely with you there regarding the wins, however.

Well sure but why they are not getting opportunities is the question. They’ve both missed games Bate 1, OBJ 2, so there’s that, but does that explain the disparity? Is it Monken? Is it Lamar’s lack of confidence in them? Is it Harbaugh’s conservative game plans? As for OBJ I had zero expectations, especially after being out in 2022, but hope that he would produce. Same with Bateman. He hasn’t been able to stay on the field (healthy), and when he’s there he has not shown very much. I’m just hoping that as the year and this offense progresses, both will get their opportunities, and both will produce. We’re only 6 games in and on top of our division. I’m good with that for now.

 

[Simba]

He's been blasted for not showing enough effort for the bulk of his career, but the motor has been non-stop in his stint here. Even when he doesn't get there, he's making an impact.

 

[redrum52]

He's been blasted for not showing enough effort for the bulk of his career, but the motor has been non-stop in his stint here. Even when he doesn't get there, he's making an impact.

The effort thing I think stemmed from not finishing sacks or maybe the injuries. He's always shown a motor to me when I've watched him. The guys we've had a chance to see up close even later in their career is crazy.

 

[Davesta]

When the coaches think a 10pt lead is enough to take the foot off the gas pedal. They got spoiled by 2019 and think we can churn out 8-10 minute drives still.

 

[UPennChem]

He's been blasted for not showing enough effort for the bulk of his career, but the motor has been non-stop in his stint here. Even when he doesn't get there, he's making an impact.

He's happy, in a good scheme, surrounded by good and talented guys, and knows he's got an opportunity for another huge pay day

 

[rmcjacket23]

The WRs apart from Zay are very good. The problem is that the playcalling is just terrible. Basically you are asking me to believe that every single player on the Ravens, except for Flowers who as a rookie this comparison does not work, has gotten worse since the last time we saw them play. Whether its FAs like OBJ or consistently decent but injured players like Bateman or the RBs or even some of the blocking. Basically either every player who is playing got worse or, and I hate typing this, the playcalling is not taking advantage of what they can do.

I mean I don't think they're all worse. Flowers is good, Andrews looks the same as he always does, and Agholor fits very well in this offense.

I don't think Edwards or Hill are special RBs (nor were they ever). I think our Oline isn't nearly as good of a run blocking unit this year as they were in the past, and I think that's a combo of injuries and replacement players.

And yeah, OBJ and Bateman are either injured all the time, or in the case of Bateman, he's just flat out gotten worse. That is possible.

Still think this offense is considerably better than what we've seen the last 2-3 years under Roman.

 

[Adreme]

I mean I don't think they're all worse. Flowers is good, Andrews looks the same as he always does, and Agholor fits very well in this offense.

I don't think Edwards or Hill are special RBs (nor were they ever). I think our Oline isn't nearly as good of a run blocking unit this year as they were in the past, and I think that's a combo of injuries and replacement players.

And yeah, OBJ and Bateman are either injured all the time, or in the case of Bateman, he's just flat out gotten worse. That is possible.

Still think this offense is considerably better than what we've seen the last 2-3 years under Roman.

Flowers is worthless in this comparison because he is a rookie. To say he is better is to compare him to empty air in this comparison because he did not exist in the NFL last year.

On the other players it does not matter whether Edwards or Hill are "special", because the comparison is between who they are and who they have been. Who they have been played better last year and every other year they have played. The same is true of the OLine. Either they all got worse or are somehow all playing worse. I will grant Aghalor is having his best year since 2020 but that still leaves us with one problem. We have one player looking better and somehow every single other player in the entire offense looks the same or worse than last year regardless of whether they were on the Ravens last year or not.

Lets flip this comparison just to demonstrate how weird it is. Lets look at the defense. Queen looks better and looks like he will be getting paid (hopefully by the Ravens). Hamilton has taken a 2nd year jump. All of the free agent corners signed looked better than they did last year. Madubuike has taken a step forward. Meanwhile the only player I can say who definitively looks worse than last year is Marlon but that might be due to him coming back from his injury.

Still when you do the comparison one player looks worse on defense and only one player looks better on offense. That is a striking indictment of something not working in the scheme.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Flowers is worthless in this comparison because he is a rookie. To say he is better is to compare him to empty air in this comparison because he did not exist in the NFL last year.

On the other players it does not matter whether Edwards or Hill are "special", because the comparison is between who they are and who they have been. Who they have been played better last year and every other year they have played. The same is true of the OLine. Either they all got worse or are somehow all playing worse. I will grant Aghalor is having his best year since 2020 but that still leaves us with one problem. We have one player looking better and somehow every single other player in the entire offense looks the same or worse than last year regardless of whether they were on the Ravens last year or not.

Lets flip this comparison just to demonstrate how weird it is. Lets look at the defense. Queen looks better and looks like he will be getting paid (hopefully by the Ravens). Hamilton has taken a 2nd year jump. All of the free agent corners signed looked better than they did last year. Madubuike has taken a step forward. Meanwhile the only player I can say who definitively looks worse than last year is Marlon but that might be due to him coming back from his injury.

Still when you do the comparison one player looks worse on defense and only one player looks better on offense. That is a striking indictment of something not working in the scheme.

Well or the fact that there was a scheme change. The defense didn't change DC's since last year... they're working in the same scheme they've been in for the second season in a row.

I don't think its a surprise our running game is less effective, because pretty much any running game transitioning from Roman to basically any other OC on the planet will get worse. Because he's one of the best running game OC's to ever coach in the league. The better question is... who would have expected the running game to improve or even stay the same? Especially with no personnel upgrades?

I think the WRs, overall, are doing significantly better. That's a product of better passing schemes and concepts and an obvious talent infusion. The only guy who literally looks worse is Bateman. If I can't say Flowers is a comparison, then neither is OBJ. Because he'd never played for the Ravens before and essentially hadn't played football at all in two years.

So the WR room is better, and the running game got worse. Or, basically, exactly what everybody thought all offseason.

Now for the Oline, its potentially more complicated. Obviously in run blocking I'd expect them to be worse, because a) again, its Roman, and b) last years running game used a lot more 12 personnel and utilized Ricard more than they're utilizing him now, which is by design, since those alignments aren't exactly ideal for the talent we have on offense.

John Simpson isn't as good as Ben Powers, and we've literally played one game all year I believe with the starting five Oline in tact. Stanley is playing worse because he's likely still recovering from an injury, and the only other player I can say is considerably worse is Zeitler, who's probably just at the point where he should be retiring soon. Moses is playing at a high level, as is Linderbaum.

One other person we kind of glanced over... is Lamar better or worse than he was a year ago?

 

[Adreme]

Well or the fact that there was a scheme change. The defense didn't change DC's since last year... they're working in the same scheme they've been in for the second season in a row.

I don't think its a surprise our running game is less effective, because pretty much any running game transitioning from Roman to basically any other OC on the planet will get worse. Because he's one of the best running game OC's to ever coach in the league. The better question is... who would have expected the running game to improve or even stay the same? Especially with no personnel upgrades?

I think the WRs, overall, are doing significantly better. That's a product of better passing schemes and concepts and an obvious talent infusion. The only guy who literally looks worse is Bateman. If I can't say Flowers is a comparison, then neither is OBJ. Because he'd never played for the Ravens before and essentially hadn't played football at all in two years.

So the WR room is better, and the running game got worse. Or, basically, exactly what everybody thought all offseason.

Now for the Oline, its potentially more complicated. Obviously in run blocking I'd expect them to be worse, because a) again, its Roman, and b) last years running game used a lot more 12 personnel and utilized Ricard more than they're utilizing him now, which is by design, since those alignments aren't exactly ideal for the talent we have on offense.

John Simpson isn't as good as Ben Powers, and we've literally played one game all year I believe with the starting five Oline in tact. Stanley is playing worse because he's likely still recovering from an injury, and the only other player I can say is considerably worse is Zeitler, who's probably just at the point where he should be retiring soon. Moses is playing at a high level, as is Linderbaum.

One other person we kind of glanced over... is Lamar better or worse than he was a year ago?

OBJ works because he played in the NFL. Flowers cannot really work because we do not have a baseline of his NFL ability. You cannot compare how Flowers looks to his previous NFL experience because he has none. OBJ has an entire career. The idea that we can say the scheme because higher quality players are here does not really add up. If Justin Jefferson came to the Ravens (healthy) today and finished an entire year with 700 yards receiving that would be an upgrade over what the Ravens had before but it would make me think there was a problem because we have evidence of what he can do. We know what OBJ can do. We have seen Bateman be far better. We have seen the OLine be FAR better than this both pass blocking and run blocking.

So yes maybe a bunch of offensive players just happened to get old all at the exact same time but that is a remarkable coincidence considering they are all different ages. The room might be more talented which has lead to slightly better numbers (think Lamar is averaging about 20 more yards per game passing but since the team is averaging 15 YPG less rushing it largely cancels out), but again we know the WR room is FAR better than last year. We know all 3 of the new faces (Flowers OBJ and Ag) are better than Duv so I would expect slightly more production from the passing game than 20 extra yards and only 5 net. When you massively upgrade the roster and the production is largely unchanged that is a bit of problem with the scheme.

 

[rmcjacket23]

OBJ works because he played in the NFL. Flowers cannot really work because we do not have a baseline of his NFL ability. You cannot compare how Flowers looks to his previous NFL experience because he has none. OBJ has an entire career. The idea that we can say the scheme because higher quality players are here does not really add up. If Justin Jefferson came to the Ravens (healthy) today and finished an entire year with 700 yards receiving that would be an upgrade over what the Ravens had before but it would make me think there was a problem because we have evidence of what he can do. We know what OBJ can do. We have seen Bateman be far better. We have seen the OLine be FAR better than this both pass blocking and run blocking.

So yes maybe a bunch of offensive players just happened to get old all at the exact same time but that is a remarkable coincidence considering they are all different ages. The room might be more talented which has lead to slightly better numbers (think Lamar is averaging about 20 more yards per game passing but since the team is averaging 15 YPG less rushing it largely cancels out), but again we know the WR room is FAR better than last year. We know all 3 of the new faces (Flowers OBJ and Ag) are better than Duv so I would expect slightly more production from the passing game than 20 extra yards and only 5 net. When you massively upgrade the roster and the production is largely unchanged that is a bit of problem with the scheme.

a) we don't really know what OBJ can do, because the last time you saw him play prior to his injury was like three years ago. So which year am I supposed to assess him on? Rookie year OBJ? I don't think that player exists anymore.
b) I don't think we've seen this unit better in pass blocking. Maybe in individual games, but not consistently over the course of a season. The pass blocking has been overall very good this year. We've seen it better in run blocking, but I also haven't seen John Simpson play, and I haven't seen a line play together for more than like one game so far. So I'm not really sure what this line is capable of at the moment. And we know the usage of personnel is different and that Roman can run the ball better.
I've seen individual players play better (Zeitler and Stanley) but I've also seen Moses and Linderbaum be better than they were last year.

20 extra yards net passing is actually quite good when you consider passing volume is largely flat. We were throwing it 27 times a game last year with Lamar, and we're throwing it about 29 times a game this year. Passing efficiency is way up, and turnovers are way down.

Also don't agree with the "massive upgrade of the roster". We upgraded WR. We downgraded Oline (at least one starter is worse) and we are, at best, neutral at RB. Though I'd say we are worse, especially looking at the second half of last year.

One other thought, since you brought up the comparison of MM to Monken... how exactly would you have rated the Ravens defense, last year, through the first 6 games? I don't think anybody was preaching the brilliance of MM at that point in time.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

View attachment 5591

When the coaches think a 10pt lead is enough to take the foot off the gas pedal. They got spoiled by 2019 and think we can churn out 8-10 minute drives still.

No one can stop our offense so we keep stopping ourselves.

"The coaches" have got the blame for too long. It's Harbaugh. For years pass happy coaches have suddenly become conservative when they got to Baltimore. I was going to call him conservative but I'm beginning to think cowardly is a better word.

Old Mother Harbaugh has an attack of the vapors even thinking about the new-fangled forward pass when the team has a lead.

I suppose he's scared of turnovers. I wish he'd realise that turnovers are a lot more likely on 3rd and long after your offense goes to the extremely predictable run run pass formula he's loved ever since Cam Cameron and gets stuffed by a defense that's ready for it.

I think EDC understands Harbaugh and has tried to force him to trust the passing game more with his roster construction.

Sadly, Harbaugh's answer to this predicament won't the easy option of trusting the strengths that we already have, by allowing more early down passes to be called throughout the game. His response be to call for us to run the ball better, even when defenses are prepared for it, and the focus on that in practice will begin to hurt the passing game and soon we won't have many leads to protect.

Then the cycle will start about whether Lamar can run a passing offense, whether the WRs are good enough, is Monken the right OC for the job and the man who caused it all will somehow survive unscathed to wreck the next version of our offense with his cowardice/conservatism.

Sorry. Rant over.

 

[allblackraven]

No one can stop our offense so we keep stopping ourselves.

"The coaches" have got the blame for too long. It's Harbaugh. For years pass happy coaches have suddenly become conservative when they got to Baltimore. I was going to call him conservative but I'm beginning to think cowardly is a better word.

Old Mother Harbaugh has an attack of the vapors even thinking about the new-fangled forward pass when the team has a lead.

I suppose he's scared of turnovers. I wish he'd realise that turnovers are a lot more likely on 3rd and long after your offense goes to the extremely predictable run run pass formula he's loved ever since Cam Cameron and gets stuffed by a defense that's ready for it.

I think EDC understands Harbaugh and has tried to force him to trust the passing game more with his roster construction.

Sadly, Harbaugh's answer to this predicament won't the easy option of trusting the strengths that we already have, by allowing more early down passes to be called throughout the game. His response be to call for us to run the ball better, even when defenses are prepared for it, and the focus on that in practice will begin to hurt the passing game and soon we won't have many leads to protect.

Then the cycle will start about whether Lamar can run a passing offense, whether the WRs are good enough, is Monken the right OC for the job and the man who caused it all will somehow survive unscathed to wreck the next version of our offense with his cowardice/conservatism.

Sorry. Rant over.

What if you are onto something here?

 

[UPennChem]

It's pretty annoying that it's not just qualitative but obviously quantifiable how poorly our offense plays over the course of a game.

There's no reason for it either. I don't believe defenses are even making crazy adjustments. We're simply calling different plays. Moving to a pretty constant run run pass 3 and out gameplan.

Additionally, even in the first half there is no downfield passing. It's crazy that this 1 dimensional dink and dump offense with a mid af run game and conservative play calling has done as well as it has. Especially against some good defenses.

Outside of the Steelers game which you squarely say the players sucked ass in, philosophy has been pretty fucking goofy tbh on offense. It's not a question of like of they need to just gel and execute. The offense by design and by playcall is just forcibly limited. It's based on rhythm, quick passes, yac, and begging Lamar to make something happen when there's nothing there.

 

[Florida Raven Fan]

Do you guys think it's Harbaugh handcuffing the OC when we have a lead? Or is it the OC being new trying to conserve the lead and trying not to mess up?

 

[UPennChem]

Do you guys think it's Harbaugh handcuffing the OC when we have a lead? Or is it the OC being new trying to conserve the lead and trying not to mess up?

Harbaugh is pretty notorious for being aggressive. I think this is Monken. The cynic in me thinks Monken doesn't trust Lamar's deep ball and that's why you don't see it much at all. Then I think he really is trying to establish a bruising run game, but I don't think this OL plus RB squad is that team.

 

[ravenslord]

Do you guys think it's Harbaugh handcuffing the OC when we have a lead? Or is it the OC being new trying to conserve the lead and trying not to mess up?

Yes !!! This will work against teams with weak QB's which is all we have seen so far,except Burrow who I think was still hurt.

It will not work agains a better than average QB like Goff and stellar QB's like Mahomes .

 

[QtR Nevermore]

Do you guys think it's Harbaugh handcuffing the OC when we have a lead? Or is it the OC being new trying to conserve the lead and trying not to mess up?

It's Harbaugh. Why else would pass first OCs like Trestman, Mornhinweg and Monken all coincidentally become run run pass guys as soon as they get to Batimore?