The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

[rossihunter2]

Now correct if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an unclassified memo not have any redacted information as shown in this link below?:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/24/democratic-memo-fbi-trump-423447

the redactions are only details and specifics that involve things sources and sensitive information that are part of active or sensitive investigations etc. - in fact with the redactions is probably what the Nunes memo should have looked like

it does seem like it should be incongruous (redacted information when it's declassified) but it's not like the whole thing (apart from 1 or 2 places like where they present the evidence for FISA renewals) is blotted out...

in actuality redaction is the main reason why you can declassify sensitive documents...

look up the wikipedia for sanitization (it will explain it better than i could)

 

[Dom McRaven]

Are you from Baltimore? If you are I know exactly why you suspect they were told to "stand down"
It made me sick then. It makes me sick to this day to think our leadership could say such a thing.
So, no, it is not out of the question. Sadly.



Even if they weren't trained....
I think we all can agree there are basically two types of cops out there. One type is a truly unique human being. Wired in a way most of us can not even comprehend. Will risk their lives day in and day out without a second thought to protect us. The other types just lives for huge dick contests.
I would like to think most are the first type. I would like to think the ones in Florida, at the very least, could not be content doing nothing.

I am not saying I would or I would not. CLearly, you never really know until you are in that moment, but I can guarantee you too things. At the very least, at the very minimum, I would *want* to go in there. Secondly, I would NOT DO NOTHING. ( I don't know what I would do, but, unless I am caring for my kid, I would do more than nothing. ) ( or I would like to think, again, most cops are simply wired differently than us )

I am not actually nor do I have any family (that I know of) living in B-more so I have no idea about the cops over there. If you or anyone else wants to educate me on them, feel free. I'm all ears.

I live in FL actually, but not near Parkland so I don't know about them. There's been articles of police from Coral Springs who are upset to say the least (as they should be) with the mishandling of this situation.

 

[Dom McRaven]

the redactions are only details and specifics that involve things sources and sensitive information that are part of active or sensitive investigations etc. - in fact with the redactions is probably what the Nunes memo should have looked like

it does seem like it should be incongruous (redacted information when it's declassified) but it's not like the whole thing (apart from 1 or 2 places like where they present the evidence for FISA renewals) is blotted out...

in actuality redaction is the main reason why you can declassify sensitive documents...

look up the wikipedia for sanitization (it will explain it better than i could)

Yep, sanitization is what I thought it was. Now I wonder, if we will ever see the unredacted version of this memo and, if we do, what happens then. What makes chuckle to an extent is how Schiff now says it's "important for the people to see the facts, that the FBI." But I thought he didn't want the Nunes memo because he didn't think the American people wouldn't understand it. Whatever...

 

[K-Dog]

I am not actually nor do I have any family (that I know of) living in B-more so I have no idea about the cops over there. If you or anyone else wants to educate me on them, feel free. I'm all ears.

I live in FL actually, but not near Parkland so I don't know about them. There's been articles of police from Coral Springs who are upset to say the least (as they should be) with the mishandling of this situation.

During the Baltimore riots a few years ago, the then mayor told the police to "stand down" as rioters destroyed business and personal property.
It was horrible.

 

[Dom McRaven]

During the Baltimore riots a few years ago, the then mayor told the police to "stand down" as rioters destroyed business and personal property.
It was horrible.

That's disgusting. Talking about it is one thing, but watching it? Completely different thing.

 

[rossihunter2]

Yep, sanitization is what I thought it was. Now I wonder, if we will ever see the unredacted version of this memo and, if we do, what happens then. What makes chuckle to an extent is how Schiff now says it's "important for the people to see the facts, that the FBI." But I thought he didn't want the Nunes memo because he didn't think the American people wouldn't understand it. Whatever...

well i imagine it would be available after the requisite 50 years for freedom of information to become available (or whenever a president decides to make it available earlier)

- and to my understanding schiff didnt want the nunes memo because it was a misleading snapshot of the entire thing - the nunes memo cherrypicked to create a narrative that the context and evidence that was wilfully omitted completely destroys

im not sure what it is that you want from the redactions - mostly the only thing that's missing is the details of information that was provided to the judge to get the FISA renewed on carter page - as far as i can tell the redactions seem to be only about information that contextually seems pertinent to the russian collusion investigation (which makes sense to keep it redacted given how sensitive that information is - whatever it is) i.e. evidence/interview transcriptions/sources etc.

 

[Rusfan]

So China finally accepted what we all knew to be true
President Xi has removed term limits from China's constitution

 

[The Raven]

Now correct if I'm wrong, but wouldn't an unclassified memo not have any redacted information as shown in this link below?:
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/24/democratic-memo-fbi-trump-423447

Not exactly. All it takes is one sentence or even one word to make a document classified. Sometimes, what makes a document classified is a personal identifier, details on a process or procedure, or something like that. If that part that's classified is redacted, the document can be unclassified. As you can see in the document, a lot of what's documented is information referring to personnel or process.

Source: I'm a government contractor.

 

[Dom McRaven]

well i imagine it would be available after the requisite 50 years for freedom of information to become available (or whenever a president decides to make it available earlier)

- and to my understanding schiff didnt want the nunes memo because it was a misleading snapshot of the entire thing - the nunes memo cherrypicked to create a narrative that the context and evidence that was wilfully omitted completely destroys

im not sure what it is that you want from the redactions - mostly the only thing that's missing is the details of information that was provided to the judge to get the FISA renewed on carter page - as far as i can tell the redactions seem to be only about information that contextually seems pertinent to the russian collusion investigation (which makes sense to keep it redacted given how sensitive that information is - whatever it is) i.e. evidence/interview transcriptions/sources etc.

I guess the only thing I want from the redactions if the subject(s) in question from the memo differ from the Nunes memo or not.

 

[gtalk12]

Georgia teacher barricaded himself in a classroom with a gun and fired a shot......

 

[K-Dog]

Georgia teacher barricaded himself in a classroom with a gun and fired a shot......

ass hole

 

[The Raven]

Georgia teacher barricaded himself in a classroom with a gun and fired a shot......

And just days prior, the GOP said we need more guns in schools.

 

[52520Andrew]

A lot of teachers have had training and are very familiar with firearms. Pistols can do a lot of damage too. Are they next? What needs to be done is figgering out how to protect public schools not trample on 2nd amendment rights. Have a policeman on duty during operating hours, limiting entranceways to get in, camaras in parking lot and surrounding building are just few ways to at least look at. What is the local govt wanting to spend?

See the thing to me is say they eliminate certain weapons all they're gonna do is move on to the next thing. It wont be enough. I promise you.

If pistols can do so much damage then why were the 3 police officers and the armed guard so scared to go in and stop the shooter? Also when the armed guards aren't fighting the shooter, limiting entrances is basically limiting exits.

I mean if you want to blame it on mental health then go ahead and do that, except no one is doing anything to address mental health either.

I am tired of seeing this stuff on the news every couple months if not more often and don't forget a good chunk of these shootings are not at schools and we are still waiting for solutions to those. Still waiting for bump stocks to be banned, something even the NRA said they supported. Odds are we will be having the same conversation in a couple months when the next mass shooting happens. Can't wait

 

[cobrajet]

Georgia teacher barricaded himself in a classroom with a gun and fired a shot......

That idiot pretty much ruined any argument for possibly allowing teachers to be armed. I would not know how law enforcement could identify an armed teacher over a bad guy during a stressful active armed shooter scenario anyway. I wonder if retired law enforcement officers, who qualify under HR218 every year could be utilized to protect schools? They would probably need special certification and training on top of their national carry certification. They probably could be paid the equivalent of a bus driver to supplement a pension, which would be cheaper than hiring extra school resource officers, and much cheaper than building new safer schools. These retired officers working in schools would be familiar with the troubled students and may be able to spot potential danger. They could wear a special uniform and local law enforcement officers could check on them at least once a day during their patrol. Just a thought, as it may be something worth at least looking into.

 

[Willbacker]

If pistols can do so much damage then why were the 3 police officers and the armed guard so scared to go in and stop the shooter? Also when the armed guards aren't fighting the shooter, limiting entrances is basically limiting exits.

I mean if you want to blame it on mental health then go ahead and do that, except no one is doing anything to address mental health either.

I am tired of seeing this stuff on the news every couple months if not more often and don't forget a good chunk of these shootings are not at schools and we are still waiting for solutions to those. Still waiting for bump stocks to be banned, something even the NRA said they supported. Odds are we will be having the same conversation in a couple months when the next mass shooting happens. Can't wait

Are you saying they didn't go in becuz they only had pistols?? If you don't think pistols can cause a lot of damage ask the VaTech students about that.

I never blamed anything on mental health but if you look at a lot these mass shootings.............................

To me I believe a lot of people wish they had a gun when they're being shot at. Its just too bad and extremely horrible that it seems like a lot of these shootings happen in no gun zones.

Now when I was talkin about limiting entrances a lot of these could involve doors that only open from the inside or be opened by ID's by people that are allowed at the school. The problem is libs aren't looking at how to protect places that make sense. All they're about is going after the 2nd amendment.

If a killer breaks the law by purchasing weapons and enters your home I guess its best to depend on the law to save us. Trust me the elites and the higher ups in govt don't depend on the law. They got their protection. The rest of us just aren't as important I guess.

 

[Willbacker]

That idiot pretty much ruined any argument for possibly allowing teachers to be armed. I would not know how law enforcement could identify an armed teacher over a bad guy during a stressful active armed shooter scenario anyway. I wonder if retired law enforcement officers, who qualify under HR218 every year could be utilized to protect schools? They would probably need special certification and training on top of their national carry certification. They probably could be paid the equivalent of a bus driver to supplement a pension, which would be cheaper than hiring extra school resource officers, and much cheaper than building new safer schools. These retired officers working in schools would be familiar with the troubled students and may be able to spot potential danger. They could wear a special uniform and local law enforcement officers could check on them at least once a day during their patrol. Just a thought, as it may be something worth at least looking into.

This is one good idea and there are just so many other solutions but its up to the local govt on what they want to do.

 

[rossihunter2]

I never blamed anything on mental health but if you look at a lot these mass shootings.............................

im assuming by the .................. that you are referring to the common thread in all of them which is white men with histories of sexually abusive or harassing behaviour?

 

[Willbacker]

im assuming by the .................. that you are referring to the common thread in all of them which is white men with histories of sexually abusive or harassing behaviour?

Nope. Try again. Ever heard of John Muhammad. The Ft Hood shootings wasn't a white guy. Neither was the Pulse Club or San Bernadino.

 

[rossihunter2]

Nope. Try again. Ever heard of John Muhammad. The Ft Hood shootings wasn't a white guy. Neither was the Pulse Club or San Bernadino.

and not all of them were mentally ill either... (which is what i assume you were actually suggesting)

here's a summary of the findings from a 2016 paper on the subject of mental health and gun crime:

"Common Misperceptions
 Mass shootings by people with serious mental illness represent the most significant relationship between gun violence and mental illness.
 People with serious mental illness should be considered dangerous.
 Gun laws focusing on people with mental illness or with a psychiatric diagnosis can effectively prevent mass shootings.
 Gun laws focusing on people with mental illness or a psychiatric diagnosis are reasonable, even if they add to the stigma already associated with mental illness.

Evidence-Based Facts
 Mass shootings by people with serious mental illness represent less than 1% of all yearly gun-related homicides. In contrast, deaths by suicide using firearms account for the majority of yearly gun-related deaths.
 The overall contribution of people with serious mental illness to violent crimes is only about 3%. When these crimes are examined in detail, an even smaller percentage of them are found to involve firearms.
 Laws intended to reduce gun violence that focus on a population representing less than 3% of all gun violence will be extremely low yield, ineffective, and wasteful of scarce resources. Perpetrators of mass shootings are unlikely to have a history of involuntary psychiatric hospitalization. Thus, databases intended to restrict access to guns and established by guns laws that broadly target people with mental illness will not capture this group of individuals.
 Gun restriction laws focusing on people with mental illness perpetuate the myth that mental illness leads to violence, as well as the misperception that gun violence and mental illness are strongly linked. Stigma represents a major barrier to access and treatment of mental illness, which in turn increases the public health burden."

this is why i was being snarky

 

[Willbacker]

and not all of them were mentally ill either... (which is what i assume you were actually suggesting)

here's a summary of the findings from a 2016 paper on the subject of mental health and gun crime:

"Common Misperceptions
 Mass shootings by people with serious mental illness represent the most significant relationship between gun violence and mental illness.
 People with serious mental illness should be considered dangerous.
 Gun laws focusing on people with mental illness or with a psychiatric diagnosis can effectively prevent mass shootings.
 Gun laws focusing on people with mental illness or a psychiatric diagnosis are reasonable, even if they add to the stigma already associated with mental illness.

Evidence-Based Facts
 Mass shootings by people with serious mental illness represent less than 1% of all yearly gun-related homicides. In contrast, deaths by suicide using firearms account for the majority of yearly gun-related deaths.
 The overall contribution of people with serious mental illness to violent crimes is only about 3%. When these crimes are examined in detail, an even smaller percentage of them are found to involve firearms.
 Laws intended to reduce gun violence that focus on a population representing less than 3% of all gun violence will be extremely low yield, ineffective, and wasteful of scarce resources. Perpetrators of mass shootings are unlikely to have a history of involuntary psychiatric hospitalization. Thus, databases intended to restrict access to guns and established by guns laws that broadly target people with mental illness will not capture this group of individuals.
 Gun restriction laws focusing on people with mental illness perpetuate the myth that mental illness leads to violence, as well as the misperception that gun violence and mental illness are strongly linked. Stigma represents a major barrier to access and treatment of mental illness, which in turn increases the public health burden."

this is why i was being snarky

OK. That's cool. but to me and this is not fact based but an opinion but any premeditated murder or violent crime to me is a sign of mental illness. Evil like that is just not right. Sure there's gun violence that involves act of rage, suicide ,self defense and just accidents in general that makes up for a shitload of gun offenses that result in death but anything that's premeditated to me is some sort of mental illness.