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2018 Secondary

RavensMania said:
Lets not forget that Carr's contract is most likely going to be a two year contract. It's actually pretty easy to get out of it after this season with option years for the remaining three years. Claiborne's upside is higher but his injury risk is too much to bear.
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Fair point, though the point of my post was a retort about Carr being paid less. I feel like a case could be made both for and against Claiborne.
 
Sledge Hammer said:
We took our shot to be a great intimidating defense and it rained lol. Claiborne could be that shutdown playmaking cornerback and I wouldn't be upset at management. I may criticize management at times. But it's all about being the best. And if Claiborne got hurt then management took its shot. To get a shutdown playmaker at a fraction of the cost. If Timmy Williams falls off track I would applaud management for trying. I'm gonna guess he plays 16 games or close to it. I think there is much a chance of Carr falling off the diving board going into season 10. And maybe I'm a spoiled brat. But I didn't like the Humphrey pick. And I don't like him at cornerback. At All. There was 4 players on Bama alone I liked better than Humph. Allen,Timmy Williams Foster and My favorite of the bunch Howard. Especially Allen,Howard. Actually Tim Williams I liked as much or more than Howard and Allen. But with the drama we got him at a total steal round3
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But youve got to look at it from managements perspective.

Injuries at CB and not having even an average person to cover may have cost us a SB in 2014, and definitely cost us a playoff spot last year.

While yes, I was more excited when I thought we were going to get Claiborne, and kind of blehh when it turned out we signed Carr... I get it. Yes if Claiborne stays healthy and Jimmy does too - best secondary in the league. Easy. Absolute shut down.

But if both get hurt.... nothing.

Sure he could stay healthy, and anyone can get injured - but when a guy hasnt stayed healthy for any prolonged period in his career its tough to bet on that. And they almost did... i imagine had he agreed to a contract that gave us more outs they wouldve taken him.

But Carr is the more sure thing. Theyre looking at it like, while it may not be the sexy signing... had we had a guy like Carr on the team in 2014 or last year, we probably wouldve played in another SB and been in the playoffs last year.

Its all about odds and percentages. Yes if claibornes healthy the chances of winning are better, but the odds of him staying healthy are very low based on his career. With Carr healthy, the odds of winning may be slightly lower than they were with a healthy Claiborne, but the odds of having a healthy Carr over 16 games is much much higher. And the odds of winning with a healthy Carr vs an injured Claiborne are far better as well.


If Carr stays healthy all year and Claiborne ends up hurt -- they definitely made the right call. And even without knowing how it turns out - i have to say they made the right call. bc based on the available info - Carr gives us what we need to get to the playoffs. A steady, dependable veteran presence opposite Jimmy.

And then they went and drafted Humphrey who is the CB that gives us the chance at 2 shutdown CBs. So they went ahead and hedged their bet. Get the sure, dependable thing.... and then go get the really high upside one that may not pan out this year. And at least with Humphrey if hes not ready year 1, we've got another 3-4 at a low cap hit to have a shot at 2 shutdown CBs.
 
JoeyFlex5 said:
so would you say, compared to having a shareece wright or rashaan melvin as the #2, that we have a lot less to worry about with our secondary? with the rest of our secondary healthy, and brandon carr becoming the guy who gets targeted often, can he hold up and not kill any chance of us winning big games like those others?

and if jimmy goes down again, would it be a drastic improvement to solidify our defense having him as our next man up to play the top spot with humphrey across from him? or would he often struggle the way he did against ODB and be a liability and make our pass defense an easy target once again? basically, does our defense and basically our whole season ride on jimmys health still?

also, by the end of the year, do you think carr holds the #2 spot strong, or do you think humphrey bypasses him, based on what you know of the 2?
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I think anytime the Ravens lose Jimmy, I'm going to be incredibly concerned and worried. You don't lose a top 10 player and lose nothing in return. Unless you've got a secondary trio of Peterson, Jimmy, and Revis in his prime, you're going to be hurting when your top guy goes down.

But yeah, I'm more comfortable now if Humphrey and Carr step in than I would be if it were like Humphrey and Canaday or last year with Wright and Young/whoever the three was. I legit don't even remember.

I think with Carr, you're getting a better version of Shareece Wright. He's extremely handsy and confident in his press abilities. He's only got an inch on Wright, but he's got 25 pounds on Wright. Carr wants to be the bully at the LoS and down the field. He's going to keep his man to the sideline and as a veteran, he's pretty savvy with his nudges, grabs, pushes, etc. down the sideline to throw his man.

He's a lot like Wright in that he's not the best when reacting to routes that break quickly. He can be beat with good timing, but rarely will he be just flat out beat. He won't give contested catches away, even if his ball skills suck. He is really pretty damn good in press coverage and has a great ability to cover his man in phase.

One thing worth noting is that Dallas's safety situation improved in 2016 a pretty good deal. Byron Jones was pretty damn good and Barry Church has gotten much better in coverage. Coincidence that he had his best coverage year of the last three years in 2016?

I see a lot of people also saying that he was the CB1 in Dallas and so this move will put him at CB2 and he'll be much better.

Disagree entirely because Carr is a LCB. Unless (and this is a distinct possibility given the ability to play press man with Jimmy and Carr) the Ravens shadow receivers, Carr is still going to be who he is. Granted, he'll have Weddle, Webb, and Jefferson behind him now and Mosley and Jefferson over the middle, so this might not be a bad thing.

Do I think Humphrey will beat him out? I do. I think Humphrey has absurd talents lying in wait and talents that will be realized. Will Carr be a liability? I think if you're expecting him to be above average and a really great week in and week out performer, yes, he will be a liability. But if you're just expecting someone who can come in and basically be another Cary Williams, you're in the right place. Carr will get beat and he'll get beat often, but he will not let up big plays and he won't let up contested catches. He is capable of starting and playing well. He will not be as bad as Shareece Wright vs Seattle or Reshaan Melvin vs NE.
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
I think anytime the Ravens lose Jimmy, I'm going to be incredibly concerned and worried. You don't lose a top 10 player and lose nothing in return. Unless you've got a secondary trio of Peterson, Jimmy, and Revis in his prime, you're going to be hurting when your top guy goes down.

But yeah, I'm more comfortable now if Humphrey and Carr step in than I would be if it were like Humphrey and Canaday or last year with Wright and Young/whoever the three was. I legit don't even remember.

I think with Carr, you're getting a better version of Shareece Wright. He's extremely handsy and confident in his press abilities. He's only got an inch on Wright, but he's got 25 pounds on Wright. Carr wants to be the bully at the LoS and down the field. He's going to keep his man to the sideline and as a veteran, he's pretty savvy with his nudges, grabs, pushes, etc. down the sideline to throw his man.

He's a lot like Wright in that he's not the best when reacting to routes that break quickly. He can be beat with good timing, but rarely will he be just flat out beat. He won't give contested catches away, even if his ball skills suck. He is really pretty damn good in press coverage and has a great ability to cover his man in phase.

One thing worth noting is that Dallas's safety situation improved in 2016 a pretty good deal. Byron Jones was pretty damn good and Barry Church has gotten much better in coverage. Coincidence that he had his best coverage year of the last three years in 2016?

I see a lot of people also saying that he was the CB1 in Dallas and so this move will put him at CB2 and he'll be much better.

Disagree entirely because Carr is a LCB. Unless (and this is a distinct possibility given the ability to play press man with Jimmy and Carr) the Ravens shadow receivers, Carr is still going to be who he is. Granted, he'll have Weddle, Webb, and Jefferson behind him now and Mosley and Jefferson over the middle, so this might not be a bad thing.

Do I think Humphrey will beat him out? I do. I think Humphrey has absurd talents lying in wait and talents that will be realized. Will Carr be a liability? I think if you're expecting him to be above average and a really great week in and week out performer, yes, he will be a liability. But if you're just expecting someone who can come in and basically be another Cary Williams, you're in the right place. Carr will get beat and he'll get beat often, but he will not let up big plays and he won't let up contested catches. He is capable of starting and playing well. He will not be as bad as Shareece Wright vs Seattle or Reshaan Melvin vs NE.
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and this is essentially what I've been expecting. Having an elite safety tandem and even stronger coverage to the inside from the LBs and slot guys, and potentially a better pass rush as well, would you think the quick breaking routes become less of an issue and he more confidently breaks on those routes? Or is that just plain slow reaction on his part?
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
Disagree entirely because Carr is a LCB. Unless (and this is a distinct possibility given the ability to play press man with Jimmy and Carr) the Ravens shadow receivers, Carr is still going to be who he is. Granted, he'll have Weddle, Webb, and Jefferson behind him now and Mosley and Jefferson over the middle, so this might not be a bad thing.
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if anything, him being the LCB and being effectively number 2 opposite a shutdown guy like jimmy should mean he sees more targets go his way surely?
 
rossihunter2 said:
if anything, him being the LCB and being effectively number 2 opposite a shutdown guy like jimmy should mean he sees more targets go his way surely?
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likely, but in our scheme it shouldn't make his job harder to see
More targets, quite the opposite in fact. Carr is likely to have more help and those targets going his way will be hard earned as it should take more accurate passes and more crisp routes to deliver into the tight windows that pees tends to dial up.

Jimmys job will always be harder simply because he is trusted to shut down his side of the field.
 
JoeyFlex5 said:
and this is essentially what I've been expecting. Having an elite safety tandem and even stronger coverage to the inside from the LBs and slot guys, and potentially a better pass rush as well, would you think the quick breaking routes become less of an issue and he more confidently breaks on those routes? Or is that just plain slow reaction on his part?
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I think he's just stiff, honestly. He's a straight line athlete, but nothing wrong with that because he's basically a bigger version of Shareece Wright. I think that's what I'd take away from this. A bigger, more physical player down the field than Wright, but some of the same struggles.
 
Adreme said:
We dont need to "take a shot" to be a great defense. We just needed to have reliable people opposite Jimmy and if that happens the Ravens are an elite defense in pretty much every stage of the game. The Ravens defense was the BEST defense in the league before Jimmy went down and they just got better in pretty much every facet of the game.
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Ok, but understand you are giving up/trading away quantum energy for stability. That never ever makes much progress in any facet anywhere. A Scientific fact. And There was nothing dominant about that defense that says much less guarantees a repeat of NO.1 with a similar lineup. Even Seattle has to win its share of shootouts. And I happen to favor of trying to get far much better. As opposed to stabilizing the team enough to sneak into the playoffs.
 
if the secondary holds up and brittle jimmy can stay healthy for once than we will be in the top 3 in sacks. williams said he needed to improve on getting sacks than he will hopefully get his chance
 
Williams
The Greek said:
if the secondary holds up and brittle jimmy can stay healthy for once than we will be in the top 3 in sacks. williams said he needed to improve on getting sacks than he will hopefully get his chance
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williams knew he needed to improve last yr and didnt
 
shareece wright wouldve been tolerable if he didnt give up the big play. he couldnt stop the dink and dunk and played far off and didnt tackle before the sticks, and then would get boxed out and posterized in the red zone. if our #2 can fix just ONE of those 2 things, im happy, because we legit havent had a second corner who has had anything resembling a "strength" since cary williams, who was strong against the deep ball but gave up lots of comeback routes. so as long as he can do something well as the cb2, im good. its been too long since weve had a cb2 that an stop ANYTHING.
 
rossihunter2 said:
what a bizarre and completely disconnected analogy...
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Who strives to be decent?? But Let's cut through the chase. Cuz I'm going out on a limb and saying Claiborne will play in 16 games or close to it. And by mid season it will be clear we shoulda signed him over Carr. If im wrong then season isn't far off to tell the tale.
 
Sledge Hammer said:
Who strives to be decent?? But Let's cut through the chase. Cuz I'm going out on a limb and saying Claiborne will play in 16 games or close to it. And by mid season it will be clear we shoulda signed him over Carr. If im wrong then season isn't far off to tell the tale.
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YJ5yMy
 
I know this is not the best use of resources per team need. But I would trade a round2 pick for Malcolm Butler. A playmaking and shutdown cornerback. Some schemes he would be an 8 interception cornerback. I'm biased in favor of 5'10 and less cornerbacks that are really good and play bigger than their size. Like a 6'1 cornerback. Can't believe patriots were only team to give him a tryout after he was DPOY of his conference. It was not even 10 minutes into his first practice when Belichick knew he got his next shutdown playmaking cornerback.

He picked off Brady like 4 practices in a row while covering like glue. His college playbook only consisted of 8 formations so he didn't play all that much as a rookie cuz he played for a small school with a very basic playbook. Therefore needed to learn a lot to play in such a complicated scheme. But he was in the game at that goal Line play because of his habit of picking off throws during practice. Brady was happy to see him pick off a QB after he picked Brady countless times in practice. His int was no fluke. Belichick knew he needed a big play if Seattle should throw and Butler was his best chance for such a play. Sucks Tavon Young is out for the season. Size is his only negative. And he definitely plays bigger than his size. I think he was going to be our best cornerback and one of the best smallish cornerbacks in the league. And one of best playmaking cornerbacks. Only fault is he isn't quite stout as Butler who is built like safety
 
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Sledge Hammer said:
I know this is not the best use of resources per team need. But I would trade a round2 pick for Malcolm Butler. A playmaking and shutdown cornerback. Some schemes he would be an 8 interception cornerback. I'm biased in favor of 5'10 and less cornerbacks that are really good and play bigger than their size. Like a 6'1 cornerback. Can't believe patriots were only team to give him a tryout after he was DPOY of his conference. It was not even 10 minutes into his first practice when Belichick knew he got his next shutdown playmaking cornerback.
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given that the pats wanted a 1st round pick for him there's no way that trade happens - he's also not a shutdown corner he's a good reliable corner but he is by no means a shutdown one side of the field guy - and if bellichek knew malcolm butler was the guy from 10 minutes in - why did he wait until those playoffs to even play him let alone start him
 
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