2019 OL Thread

[Willbacker]

I watched one game of McCoy and wasn’t impressed. I felt like if someone wanted to complain about strength and anchor then McCoy should be a target just as much, if not more than Bradbury. But then again I’ve watched like 4 games of Bradbury and never once felt like his anchor was so bad that he wouldn’t overcome, and only watched one game of McCoys.

If we have an extremely mobile, technical, agile, and smart center then I think weakish play strength can definitely be overcome as long as he’s surrounded by power, grabbing a Nate Davis, Chris lindstrom, or Conner McGovern would solve that situation, and if Bradbury is the starting C then I’m perfectly comfortable with 2 rookies on the interior because Bradbury is just that sound, the inexperience thing just wouldn’t be a worry for me. Plus I really love the idea of giving Greg Roman a “weapon” of sorts at C, I feel like he could scheme up some brilliance with a guy who moves like him, and you would never worry about the exotic block packages in regards to assignment, because you have a field general at C who’s going to synchronize everything.

Another guy who keeps getting left out, a mid day 3 prospect, is Nate herbig, he is an absolute mammoth of a man

You want a good game check out the bowl game between A&M/NC ST. You get to check out both players lol. This is the game where McCoy's great pulling action really...………………..grew on me.

 

[Oldfaithful]

something is wrong if we don't come out of this draft/fa with help at guard and/center

We need at least two. Yanda needs his replacement groomed.

If you want an example as to why I’m so damn skeptical of Eric, he was part of a FO that oversaw a team that’s had an oline need since 2015. It’s been the biggest need on the team every fucking year since then and the only real investments we’ve made were Stanley, who was a slam dunk and should be 10 year starter at the LT spot, and Orlando Brown, who had a good rookie year and should’ve been starting from day 1, but was inconsistent and jury is still out on. The other “investments” have been mid round picks and frankly I only have confidence that one of them has starter upside in Bozeman. Lewis? Backup and should stay there. Siragusa could’ve developed but injuries ruined him. Eluemenor is a lost cause and we should move the fuck on. Stop settling for mediocrity. I like Senat as a backup.

The lack of investment has been pathetic. Scares the shit out of me. Sure a WR corps is important for a new QB, but at the end of the day football is, and always will be won in the trenches. Oline and Dline need to be the main focus here. Give Lamar good trenches, and we should be good for the next decade if his development goes smoothly

 

[RavensMania]

If we end up drafting a G/C in the 3rd round, I wouldn't mind drafting Ross Pierschbacher, the Center from Alabama in 2018 that played Guard in 2017. He'd be a good fit in Roman's scheme.

 

[RavensMania]

We need at least two. Yanda needs his replacement groomed.

If you want an example as to why I’m so damn skeptical of Eric, he was part of a FO that oversaw a team that’s had an oline need since 2015. It’s been the biggest need on the team every fucking year since then and the only real investments we’ve made were Stanley, who was a slam dunk and should be 10 year starter at the LT spot, and Orlando Brown, who had a good rookie year and should’ve been starting from day 1, but was inconsistent and jury is still out on. The other “investments” have been mid round picks and frankly I only have confidence that one of them has starter upside in Bozeman. Lewis? Backup and should stay there. Siragusa could’ve developed but injuries ruined him. Eluemenor is a lost cause and we should move the fuck on. Stop settling for mediocrity. I like Senat as a backup.

The lack of investment has been pathetic. Scares the shit out of me. Sure a WR corps is important for a new QB, but at the end of the day football is, and always will be won in the trenches. Oline and Dline need to be the main focus here. Give Lamar good trenches, and we should be good for the next decade if his development goes smoothly

EDC is also part of the team that has put together mostly very good drafts. Sure they have missed out on some drafts but in many drafts there weren't many decent offensive lineman in the top few rounds to even draft or they weren't in position to get that player.

2015 we had a good offensive line, except for LT which we improved in the 2016 draft. Our center, Jeremy Zuttah was a top 10 center until injuries got him. He was a very good fit in the WCO.

2016 took Stanley in the 1st and Lewis in the 4th. Stanley is ok for a 4th round pick, he just needs to be depth. You can't expect them all to end up studs. Sure we could have taken Whitehair in the 2nd but we had more holes than just offensive line to improve on the team. This was a good draft overall due to the starters that have come out of this draft.

2017 We took Siragusa and I agree he most likely would've developed. This was mainly a defensive draft and at the time seemed like a very good draft. We got a stud in Humphrey, Bowser and T. Williams I feel the jury is still out. Bowser just needs to be used as a SAM. Wormley is a good rotational piece who should get even more time this year with Urban most likely not being resigned. Chuck Clark drafted in the 6th has been decent as well. Most teams don't hit like we hit from the 4th-6th round. EDC is part of that team.

2018 We took Orlando Brown who is going to be a stud and Bozeman who I feel has starter ability at either Guard or Center.

I disagree that we haven't been trying to fix the offensive line. We haven't had the cap to be able to use for offensive line and letting Jenson walk in 2018 was the right thing to do. Even a lot of those big fa signings from a year or two ago have failed those respective teams.

We can't take studs every year along the line or else we will neglect other parts of the team. Yes you build the team from the lines outward, but no team, absolutely no team has studs in five spots. Most don't have good Tackles and we have two good tackles and a stud in Yanda who needs to be replaced. I agree his replacement needs to be groomed, but you can't say we haven't done anything.

So I do have a lot of trust in EDC in building this team his own way and I'm glad he learned under Ozzie as well.

 

[Oldfaithful]

@RavensMania
I'm not expecting studs. But look at what the colts and cowboys did. Not everyone on those lines were dominant, but they did invest high draft picks on people and have gotten results. We haven't. For the fourth offseason in a row, the offensive line is the biggest need. We've let lots of key guys walk. Relied on stop gaps. And ultimately have grown content with garbage starting.. No more.

Stanley and Brown are the only high picks. Everyone else has been mid to late rounders, and the only one that even has starter upside from there is Bozeman. Elumenor? Garbage. Lewis, depth player who is forced into a starter role because WE DON'T INVEST. Siragusa I don't blame the FO for, shit happens. Senat, depth and a good depth piece.

THAT IS NO WAY TO BUILD A LINE. Trenches win you championships if you have the QB. We are relying on two UDFAs in the starting lineup when we are one sold starter at C(he doesn't have to be elite) from fielding a good oline that doesn't have to rely on a gimmicky scheme to run the ball. We are two solid starters away from fielding one of the best lines in the game. We don't need every player to be a superstar. But when you have two utter liabilities out there week in and week out, you're not going to have success in the long-term and you can't outscheme other teams away from it forever. That's what we've been doing.

This team's philosophy has been a joke

 

[JoeyFlex5]

@RavensMania
I'm not expecting studs. But look at what the colts and cowboys did. Not everyone on those lines were dominant, but they did invest high draft picks on people and have gotten results. We haven't. For the fourth offseason in a row, the offensive line is the biggest need. We've let lots of key guys walk. Relied on stop gaps. And ultimately have grown content with garbage starting.. No more.

Stanley and Brown are the only high picks. Everyone else has been mid to late rounders, and the only one that even has starter upside from there is Bozeman. Elumenor? Garbage. Lewis, depth player who is forced into a starter role because WE DON'T INVEST. Siragusa I don't blame the FO for, shit happens. Senat, depth and a good depth piece.

THAT IS NO WAY TO BUILD A LINE. Trenches win you championships if you have the QB. We are relying on two UDFAs in the starting lineup when we are one sold starter at C(he doesn't have to be elite) from fielding a good oline that doesn't have to rely on a gimmicky scheme to run the ball. We are two solid starters away from fielding one of the best lines in the game. We don't need every player to be a superstar. But when you have two utter liabilities out there week in and week out, you're not going to have success in the long-term and you can't outscheme other teams away from it forever. That's what we've been doing.

This team's philosophy has been a joke

Trade back > take lindstrom > use ammo to trade up > take Jenkins or McCoy > profit

 

[RavensMania]

@RavensMania
I'm not expecting studs. But look at what the colts and cowboys did. Not everyone on those lines were dominant, but they did invest high draft picks on people and have gotten results. We haven't. For the fourth offseason in a row, the offensive line is the biggest need. We've let lots of key guys walk. Relied on stop gaps. And ultimately have grown content with garbage starting.. No more.

Stanley and Brown are the only high picks. Everyone else has been mid to late rounders, and the only one that even has starter upside from there is Bozeman. Elumenor? Garbage. Lewis, depth player who is forced into a starter role because WE DON'T INVEST. Siragusa I don't blame the FO for, shit happens. Senat, depth and a good depth piece.

THAT IS NO WAY TO BUILD A LINE. Trenches win you championships if you have the QB. We are relying on two UDFAs in the starting lineup when we are one sold starter at C(he doesn't have to be elite) from fielding a good oline that doesn't have to rely on a gimmicky scheme to run the ball. We are two solid starters away from fielding one of the best lines in the game. We don't need every player to be a superstar. But when you have two utter liabilities out there week in and week out, you're not going to have success in the long-term and you can't outscheme other teams away from it forever. That's what we've been doing.

This team's philosophy has been a joke

I'm willing to put money on it that we will draft OL in the first three rounds this year as well. You don't even give him a chance but you have praised the drafts in 2016, 2017 and 2018 in the past as well. Which one is it.

 

[Oldfaithful]

Let's see.

2016: Stanley(stud), Lewis(good depth. Forced into starting role because we haven't invested), Skura(hot garbage, but a starter because NO INVESTMENT)
2017: Siragusa(injuries ruined him), Eluemenor(trash, should cut our losses when we have the chance)
2018: Orlando Brown Jr(looks like a solid starter, jury is still out), Bozeman(starter upside), Greg Senat(depth piece)

So that may be a lot of players but how much VALUE? All but two of them were high draft picks, and only one has legit starter upside. You may be taking a LOT of players, but how many of them are high draft picks? How many of them are actually valuable contributors for this team?

Here's the right answer to this question: two. Stanley and Brown Jr. Have been good bookends. Bozeman has starter upside but even he isn't a guarentee. Because we haven't invested much in the trenches over the past four years(four years.. This has been the biggest need on the team for FOUR YEARS, and really we are no better off than we were four years ago).

Yes, we cannot have studs at every position. I understand that. That's not what I'm asking. But we cannot afford to have mediocrity to hot garbage as 2/5 starters otherwise every suffers on the offense. That's what we've had for every year since 2016.

2016: Lewis was not a good starter, Zuttah had fallen off. Vladimir Ducasse. Run game, non-existent
2017: Hurst and Skura in the starting lineup. Masked by genius of Greg Roman's scheme and weak competition down the stretch
2018: Hurst and Skura in the starting lineup. Run game completely fodderized for the first half of the season. Roman forced to use gimmick scheme to run the ball and we get lucky and play some of the worst rushing defenses in the league in the back half of the year to recover. Fall apart when we play a real team.

Oh gee? There's not a problem here.

 

[Oldfaithful]

I'm willing to put money on it that we will draft OL in the first three rounds this year as well. You don't even give him a chance but you have praised the drafts in 2016, 2017 and 2018 in the past as well. Which one is it.

Not a good argument.
1. I am giving him a chance, but I'm skeptical, don't put words in my mouth. Only a fool wouldn't be given how dumb the FO has been as a whole for the past 4 seasons with all of the talent we've passed up and some of the shitty contracts we've given. Being optimistic is fine, but crowning him outright and not allowing any semblance of criticism is how we have settled for this mediocrity. If he fucks up, and I think with how this team's philosophy hasn't changed in 5 years he probably will, we should be going for his throat.

2. The talent pool as been fine as a whole, but the team has had the same fundamental weaknesses for the past 4 seasons. Pass rush and oline. And nothing has changed. At all. Rather than build up the OL by signing a perfect scheme fit in Larry Warford we got a one dimmensional player in Brandon Williams and reset the market for him. The only thing that has changed over the past 4 seasons that has been noticeable is that the secondary is no longer an utter joke. WR corps? Still sucks. OL? Still has two garbage starters every year. Pass rush? Non-existent at times and heavily manufactured.

We need to invest more than a couple of picks in the oline. HIGH picks. The trenches are now at the utmost importance because we have a young QB. And the philosophy that the trenches aren't of the utmost importance is how other teams crashed and burned for awhile. Colts, Packers, New Orleans for awhile. We are no different. For the past 3 seasons we haven't been able to consistently run the ball. That's not on the ball carrier, the oline has been a joke. And even if I like some of the other moves, the biggest ones at hand have been consistently ignored.

Hell, for example I LIKED Hayden Hurst(still do), but even I wanted Hernandez instead. Sure, he took a couple of games to get off his feet, but so did Nelson who made the all pro team as a rookie. It happens, some growing pains will incur. Our pains haven't been growing pains, we're malnourished in key areas.

So yes. I can have it both ways. people have called me crazy for worrying about the oline. Guess what? NOTHING has changed in four seasons. And until something does I will be worried for the health of a young QB who could effectively turn the franchise around

 

[RavensMania]

Not a good argument.
1. I am giving him a chance, but I'm skeptical, don't put words in my mouth. Only a fool wouldn't be given how dumb the FO has been as a whole for the past 4 seasons with all of the talent we've passed up and some of the shitty contracts we've given. Being optimistic is fine, but crowning him outright and not allowing any semblance of criticism is how we have settled for this mediocrity. If he fucks up, and I think with how this team's philosophy hasn't changed in 5 years he probably will, we should be going for his throat.

2. The talent pool as been fine as a whole, but the team has had the same fundamental weaknesses for the past 4 seasons. Pass rush and oline. And nothing has changed. At all. Rather than build up the OL by signing a perfect scheme fit in Larry Warford we got a one dimmensional player in Brandon Williams and reset the market for him. The only thing that has changed over the past 4 seasons that has been noticeable is that the secondary is no longer an utter joke. WR corps? Still sucks. OL? Still has two garbage starters every year. Pass rush? Non-existent at times and heavily manufactured.

We need to invest more than a couple of picks in the oline. HIGH picks. The trenches are now at the utmost importance because we have a young QB. And the philosophy that the trenches aren't of the utmost importance is how other teams crashed and burned for awhile. Colts, Packers, New Orleans for awhile. We are no different. For the past 3 seasons we haven't been able to consistently run the ball. That's not on the ball carrier, the oline has been a joke. And even if I like some of the other moves, the biggest ones at hand have been consistently ignored.

Hell, for example I LIKED Hayden Hurst(still do), but even I wanted Hernandez instead. Sure, he took a couple of games to get off his feet, but so did Nelson who made the all pro team as a rookie. It happens, some growing pains will incur. Our pains haven't been growing pains, we're malnourished in key areas.

So yes. I can have it both ways. people have called me crazy for worrying about the oline. Guess what? NOTHING has changed in four seasons. And until something does I will be worried for the health of a young QB who could effectively turn the franchise around

You can say what you want, but don't try and say I've crowned him, because I am giving him a chance, but have a lot of confidence in him.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Not a good argument.
1. I am giving him a chance, but I'm skeptical, don't put words in my mouth. Only a fool wouldn't be given how dumb the FO has been as a whole for the past 4 seasons with all of the talent we've passed up and some of the shitty contracts we've given. Being optimistic is fine, but crowning him outright and not allowing any semblance of criticism is how we have settled for this mediocrity. If he fucks up, and I think with how this team's philosophy hasn't changed in 5 years he probably will, we should be going for his throat.

2. The talent pool as been fine as a whole, but the team has had the same fundamental weaknesses for the past 4 seasons. Pass rush and oline. And nothing has changed. At all. Rather than build up the OL by signing a perfect scheme fit in Larry Warford we got a one dimmensional player in Brandon Williams and reset the market for him. The only thing that has changed over the past 4 seasons that has been noticeable is that the secondary is no longer an utter joke. WR corps? Still sucks. OL? Still has two garbage starters every year. Pass rush? Non-existent at times and heavily manufactured.

We need to invest more than a couple of picks in the oline. HIGH picks. The trenches are now at the utmost importance because we have a young QB. And the philosophy that the trenches aren't of the utmost importance is how other teams crashed and burned for awhile. Colts, Packers, New Orleans for awhile. We are no different. For the past 3 seasons we haven't been able to consistently run the ball. That's not on the ball carrier, the oline has been a joke. And even if I like some of the other moves, the biggest ones at hand have been consistently ignored.

Hell, for example I LIKED Hayden Hurst(still do), but even I wanted Hernandez instead. Sure, he took a couple of games to get off his feet, but so did Nelson who made the all pro team as a rookie. It happens, some growing pains will incur. Our pains haven't been growing pains, we're malnourished in key areas.

So yes. I can have it both ways. people have called me crazy for worrying about the oline. Guess what? NOTHING has changed in four seasons. And until something does I will be worried for the health of a young QB who could effectively turn the franchise around

While I agree with a lot of points, I think it’s unfair to ignore the state of our secondary and TE group 4 years ago compared to now, we had a secondary of practice squadders with Michael huff and Matt Elam and darian Stewart and Kendrick Lewis. We shuffled through the likes of Crockett Gillmore, Ben Watson, wheelchair pitta, Boyle, and maxx since 2013. Now we have legit the best secondary in the league and what’s looking like the best TE group in the league as well. Also, 4 years ago our OL was even worse off than it is now, Stanley and Brown Jr are a massive upgrade to Whoever the fuck was there in 2015(Monroe and Wagner?)

 

[Oldfaithful]

While I agree with a lot of points, I think it’s unfair to ignore the state of our secondary and TE group 4 years ago compared to now, we have legit the best secondary in the league and what’s looking like the best TE group in the league as well. Also, 4 years ago our OL was even worse off than it is now, Stanley and Brown Jr are a massive upgrade to Whoever the fuck was there in 2015(Monroe and Wagner?)

Monroe and Wagner were good in the zone scheme, but I agree it's a relief to have two bookends.

I'd argue it's a wash. Because 4 years ago Zuttah was a viable C, and KO was a pro bowler at the LG spot. Not to mention Wagner was a good RT, Monroe was a good LT, and Yanda is a future HOF regardless. Monroe missed a lot of games which was his only detriment really and the primary reason we drafted Stanley. Nowadays, well Hurst is a detriment in it of himself and Skura is one of the worst Cs in the league. It's honestly a massive wash considering that Monroe and Wagner were way better than those two, and those two were the worst players on that oline

 

[rossihunter2]

1. I am giving him a chance, but I'm skeptical, don't put words in my mouth. Only a fool wouldn't be given how dumb the FO has been as a whole for the past 4 seasons with all of the talent we've passed up and some of the shitty contracts we've given. Being optimistic is fine, but crowning him outright and not allowing any semblance of criticism is how we have settled for this mediocrity. If he fucks up, and I think with how this team's philosophy hasn't changed in 5 years he probably will, we should be going for his throat.

i just completely disagree with this - almost everything you said in this bit...

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Monroe and Wagner were good in the zone scheme, but I agree it's a relief to have two bookends.

I'd argue it's a wash. Because 4 years ago Zuttah was a viable C, and KO was a pro bowler at the LG spot. Not to mention Wagner was a good RT, Monroe was a good LT, and Yanda is a future HOF regardless. Monroe missed a lot of games which was his only detriment really and the primary reason we drafted Stanley. Nowadays, well Hurst is a detriment in it of himself and Skura is one of the worst Cs in the league. It's honestly a massive wash considering that Monroe and Wagner were way better than those two, and those two were the worst players on that oline

Monroe wasn’t just about the lack of availability, it was about the massive investment as well, you wanna talk about stupid moves there’s one for ya.

 

[Oldfaithful]

Monroe wasn’t just about the lack of availability, it was about the massive investment as well, you wanna talk about stupid moves there’s one for ya.

It's only stupid because of the benefit of hindsight. We gave him a contract that was worthy for a franchise LT, when every year of his career before that he looked like one. I don't think anyone could've anticipated the fact that he would retire.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

It's only stupid because of the benefit of hindsight. We gave him a contract that was worthy for a franchise LT, when every year of his career before that he looked like one. I don't think anyone could've anticipated the fact that he would retire.

Yeah I know, just another one that bit us in the ass. But my point is OL wasn’t always the biggest need, for a long time it was the secondary and we addressed it in a major way, our TEs were horrible once pitta got injured and we tried to address it once and failed, but went back to it and now have a monster of a group. Stanley is one of the nfls best LTs and brown jr has a bright future as a monster run blocker and enough length to let him get by as a pass protector. I agree that taking KC over Thomas or Whitehair was the dumbest shit possible, and I too would’ve preferred Hernandez over hurst, but we did transform this team quite a bit, unfortunately it came at the expense of letting the OL fall apart.

Brandon Williams should’ve went elsewhere for sure, and that should’ve been used to beef up the OL, but overall we have made big strides

 

[rossihunter2]

unfortunately it came at the expense of letting the OL fall apart.

while our OL obviously isnt great, i think what we have to remember is that the general overall level of OL league-wide is getting worse all the time and that the last year our OL was one of the better units in the league - certainly better than the median

so i wouldnt say we've improved other spots only to let the OL self-destruct

 

[Oldfaithful]

while our OL obviously isnt great, i think what we have to remember is that the general overall level of OL league-wide is getting worse all the time and that the last year our OL was one of the better units in the league - certainly better than the median

so i wouldnt say we've improved other spots only to let the OL self-destruct

And it still couldn't run block.. At all. It's not a good oline if you can only do 50% of your job so I fail to see your point. The rest of the league's issues shouldn't excuse our own deficiencies. Doing that gets us nothing and is detrimental to our progress.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

man elgton jenkins is fun to watch. OL are usually boring evals for me but the real bullies are some of my favorite tapes(cough quenton nelson), and the uber athletic guys are fun to watch as well, but jenkins falls in that former category, you cant beat the guy in pass pro, he takes a shallow drop off the snap and grabs you immediately and the best the DT can do is get jenkins to arch his back, his anchor is just ridiculous, like he cant get pushed back even a yard it seems. and in the run game he has those yanda like snaps where hes getting big push on his own man by himself while helping the man next to him get some push too, hes just a space maker up front in the run game. just a really powerful fucker and nasty style, i havent watched him in a while but his tape stuck in my mind and i always thought of him as a first rounder, after another look i think hes just not getting enough credit period. the only weaknesses i see is that he doesnt always lean forward as much as he should and can play a little upright at times, and sometimes his feet can get a little heavy and he settles for plant and shove, rather than drive, which is a weakness i saw with frank ragnow as well which knocked him down to a second rounder in my book, but the main difference for me is that jenkins appears to be way more powerful, because even with these things he is still shoving guys around like ragdolls. if jenkins can get that pad level down and get some more lean to his game, and churn those feet to get more drive out of his lower body, then he may end up an all pro center.

and remember how we mostly thought price and ragnow were round 2 picks? well they both went relatively early in 1, and nobody seemed to have a problem with it either, why? because center quality is so shit in this league that a center who at least looks like he can be a non liability of a starter is considered a first round talent, elgton jenkins though looks better than either of those guys by a wide margin. i wouldnt mind him at all at 22

 

[JoeyFlex5]

and god dammit i wish garrett bradbury was stronger, like if he had average power and anchor with the same level of ridiculous skill and athleticism he would be a generational talent, an OL who can move like him is freaking rare, idk if ive seen a center as athletic as this guy, dude moves like a blocking TE.