Ravens Trade News: Marcus Peters, etc...

[JoeyFlex5]

I would add Carr and yes, Earl Thomas to this list.

Good call on Carr, I would definitely add him, and Thomas is yet to be determined but I definitely think he’s gonna be on that list.

I would almost wanna add Cary Williams too, he was a big part of our defense for our SB run

 

[rmcjacket23]

Signing a FA and then having them stick around for 10+ years is rare. Most medium to big name FAs are signed after years 4 and 5 and you’re talking 14+ year career, so Your qualifiers are extremely unreasonable. And on top of that, the players that are supposed to be 10+ year players for your franchise are your early draft picks, who was the last one to live up to that billing? Yanda? So we aren’t exactly hitting at the 30-40% rate you’re speaking of, in fact one could easily argue the ravens have done much better in FA than in the draft.

But that's kind of the point... my qualifiers aren't unreasonable... it just depends on what you want from a player. I can even drop it lower... I can drop it down to like 5 years. A lot of the guys you listed didn't even hit 5 years of production in Baltimore. And five years isn't a very long time for guys that you're signing at 25-26 (or in the case of many of the guys listed... a lot older than that). We're only talking guys who need a career to last until like 30 for that to play out, and for actual quality players, that's not a stretch by any means.

If I looked at just the Harbaugh era:
Flacco: 11 years
Ray Rice: 6 years
Lardarius Webb: 9 years
Dennis Pitta: 8 years
Jimmy Smith: 9 years
Brandon Williams: 7 years (pretty much a lock for at least 8-9)

And that's without looking at the guys who were quality players for us, and let and went elsewhere. Talking Kruger, KO, Wagner, Jensen, Juszczyk, Mosley, Jernigan, ZaDarius, etc.

And then we get to the guys still on rookie deals, like Judon, Marlon, Stanley, etc, all of whom will be playing at least 4-5 years with us, and maybe longer, or playing for another 2-3 years minimum elsewhere.

You're not getting any longevity close to these guys out of anybody you sign in FA. Derrick Mason did 6 years, and that was a LONG time ago.

The point being... you can use FA to fill in gaps. You can expect to get 2-3 solid years out of a player. But you're never getting a franchise-level player in their prime in that arena, and you're never getting the longevity you want from a player to maintain being competitive long term.

 

[gtalk12]

But that's kind of the point... my qualifiers aren't unreasonable... it just depends on what you want from a player. I can even drop it lower... I can drop it down to like 5 years. A lot of the guys you listed didn't even hit 5 years of production in Baltimore. And five years isn't a very long time for guys that you're signing at 25-26 (or in the case of many of the guys listed... a lot older than that). We're only talking guys who need a career to last until like 30 for that to play out, and for actual quality players, that's not a stretch by any means.

If I looked at just the Harbaugh era:
Flacco: 11 years
Ray Rice: 6 years
Lardarius Webb: 9 years
Dennis Pitta: 8 years
Jimmy Smith: 9 years
Brandon Williams: 7 years (pretty much a lock for at least 8-9)

And that's without looking at the guys who were quality players for us, and let and went elsewhere. Talking Kruger, KO, Wagner, Jensen, Juszczyk, Mosley, Jernigan, ZaDarius, etc.

And then we get to the guys still on rookie deals, like Judon, Marlon, Stanley, etc, all of whom will be playing at least 4-5 years with us, and maybe longer, or playing for another 2-3 years minimum elsewhere.

You're not getting any longevity close to these guys out of anybody you sign in FA. Derrick Mason did 6 years, and that was a LONG time ago.

The point being... you can use FA to fill in gaps. You can expect to get 2-3 solid years out of a player. But you're never getting a franchise-level player in their prime in that arena, and you're never getting the longevity you want from a player to maintain being competitive long term.

These 3 hurt alittle, same with Ben Grubbs. That being said, drafting is the way to go. Trading UP not DOWN. I think EDC is much more aggressive in that regard.

Time will tell. His first draft looks promising.

 

[JAAM]

I wonder if the Falcons would be open to trading Julio lol. Imagine Lamar having him to throw to

 

[RavensMania]

Good call on Carr, I would definitely add him, and Thomas is yet to be determined but I definitely think he’s gonna be on that list.

I would almost wanna add Cary Williams too, he was a big part of our defense for our SB run

good point, Cary Williams should be on that list

 

[RL52TheGreatest]

good point, Cary Williams should be on that list

Y'all forgot Corey Graham too. SMH

 

[JoeyFlex5]

But that's kind of the point... my qualifiers aren't unreasonable... it just depends on what you want from a player. I can even drop it lower... I can drop it down to like 5 years. A lot of the guys you listed didn't even hit 5 years of production in Baltimore. And five years isn't a very long time for guys that you're signing at 25-26 (or in the case of many of the guys listed... a lot older than that). We're only talking guys who need a career to last until like 30 for that to play out, and for actual quality players, that's not a stretch by any means.

If I looked at just the Harbaugh era:
Flacco: 11 years
Ray Rice: 6 years
Lardarius Webb: 9 years
Dennis Pitta: 8 years
Jimmy Smith: 9 years
Brandon Williams: 7 years (pretty much a lock for at least 8-9)

And that's without looking at the guys who were quality players for us, and let and went elsewhere. Talking Kruger, KO, Wagner, Jensen, Juszczyk, Mosley, Jernigan, ZaDarius, etc.

And then we get to the guys still on rookie deals, like Judon, Marlon, Stanley, etc, all of whom will be playing at least 4-5 years with us, and maybe longer, or playing for another 2-3 years minimum elsewhere.

You're not getting any longevity close to these guys out of anybody you sign in FA. Derrick Mason did 6 years, and that was a LONG time ago.

The point being... you can use FA to fill in gaps. You can expect to get 2-3 solid years out of a player. But you're never getting a franchise-level player in their prime in that arena, and you're never getting the longevity you want from a player to maintain being competitive long term.

Do you think that maybe it’s possible that those same players you listed for longevity purposes, are the exact reasons we were never able to sign a prime and premiere FA? Those guys are literally the reasons we were in cap hell from 12-18, most of them being extremely high priced and doing next to nothing on the field IF they even saw the field.

That’s what our drafting gets us.

And also let’s not act like this coaching staff developed any of those players. We haven’t developed a prospect into a quality player in idk how long aside from ZDS, Stanley, Judon, Tavon, Humphrey, pierce, and Lamar. Don’t tell me andrews because we didn’t develop him, that man was born a baller. That might be a decently long list but 2 of those players are above average at best and will command top dollar anyway, one has been injured for 50% of his career, and one is a run stuffer and nothing more. Stanley, Humphrey, and Lamar are looking like the only players we’ve been able to develop into real deal franchise caliber players. We’ve been horrible at drafting and even worse at developing. The stockpiling of picks and re signing our average home grown talents and not having the cap space to make splash moves as a result, has been the reason we’ve hovered at .500 for 7 years.

You’re suggesting more of the same it sounds like. This team needs to make some splash moves while they have a star qb and some other offensive stars on rookie deals(assuming Hollywood actually becomes a star). This whole stockpiling picks and being frugal thing has not worked before and it won’t work now. This team can’t draft or develop pass rushers and until we make a move for a proven entity there then we will get carved up by every solid qb in the league

And also you talk about length, but despite these players typically staying 2-3 years, they’re often some of the best players on the team for that stretch. Steve Smith, dumervil, Daryl Smith, Eric weddle, we’re all honestly in the conversation for best player on the team at some point in their time here, Steve Smith went on a tear in year 1 and before his Achilles in year 2 was on a league leading pace, dumervil was racing for top sacker in the league, Daryl Smith was an absolute stud and our 2nd best defender after jimmy in 2013, weddle as we now see was the glue to the leagues best secondary.

Of those long term guys you mentioned we had jimmy who can fall into that same category and even he has hindered our cap big time while sitting on the trainers table

 

[airconteka]

Daryl Smith, dumervil, Steve Smith, Ben Watson, Eric weddle, mike Wallace, Justin forsett, Owen Daniels, Matt birk, vonta leach, jacoby Jones.

Hell aside from Dominique foxworth and Tony Jefferson the ravens have been pretty damn good at hitting on FA signings. Our biggest blunders we’re almost exclusively re signing or extending guys for way more than they were worth or extending guys who had already hit their prime or would be injury problems, ray rice, Dennis pitta, haloti ngata, lardarius Webb, and then Joe Flacco’s second extension. Nothing we did in free agency can even sniff those blunders.

You missed Anquan Boldin

 

[gtalk12]

You missed Anquan Boldin

Who is that?

 

[JoeyFlex5]

You missed Anquan Boldin

Boldin was a trade

 

[RavensMania]

You missed Anquan Boldin

well we attempted to get TO and lucked out in the end.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Do you think that maybe it’s possible that those same players you listed for longevity purposes, are the exact reasons we were never able to sign a prime and premiere FA? Those guys are literally the reasons we were in cap hell from 12-18, most of them being extremely high priced and doing next to nothing on the field IF they even saw the field.

That’s what our drafting gets us.

And also let’s not act like this coaching staff developed any of those players. We haven’t developed a prospect into a quality player in idk how long aside from ZDS, Stanley, Judon, Tavon, Humphrey, pierce, and Lamar. Don’t tell me andrews because we didn’t develop him, that man was born a baller. That might be a decently long list but 2 of those players are above average at best and will command top dollar anyway, one has been injured for 50% of his career, and one is a run stuffer and nothing more. Stanley, Humphrey, and Lamar are looking like the only players we’ve been able to develop into real deal franchise caliber players. We’ve been horrible at drafting and even worse at developing. The stockpiling of picks and re signing our average home grown talents and not having the cap space to make splash moves as a result, has been the reason we’ve hovered at .500 for 7 years.

You’re suggesting more of the same it sounds like. This team needs to make some splash moves while they have a star qb and some other offensive stars on rookie deals(assuming Hollywood actually becomes a star). This whole stockpiling picks and being frugal thing has not worked before and it won’t work now. This team can’t draft or develop pass rushers and until we make a move for a proven entity there then we will get carved up by every solid qb in the league

And also you talk about length, but despite these players typically staying 2-3 years, they’re often some of the best players on the team for that stretch. Steve Smith, dumervil, Daryl Smith, Eric weddle, we’re all honestly in the conversation for best player on the team at some point in their time here, Steve Smith went on a tear in year 1 and before his Achilles in year 2 was on a league leading pace, dumervil was racing for top sacker in the league, Daryl Smith was an absolute stud and our 2nd best defender after jimmy in 2013, weddle as we now see was the glue to the leagues best secondary.

Of those long term guys you mentioned we had jimmy who can fall into that same category and even he has hindered our cap big time while sitting on the trainers table

1. To answer you question... no, not really. I don't think those players are the main reasons why he haven't signed premiere FAs. I don't think we would have signed premier FAs even if we didn't have Pitta's dead money, or Ray Rice's dead money (really shouldn't be in this argument, since predicting or anticipating his demise isn't really possible). We didn't have a GM or assistant GM who really liked to sign premier FAs, and if we had more capital, we would have retained our own players instead. We would have kept KO and/or Wagner, and we probably would have kept CJ too. I'm not even sure there's a reasonable argument to be had that the Ravens would have really even considered going after a top tier FA in any of those previous years.
The reality is that, from a cap perspective, it begins and ends with Joe. None of the other players really matter. Nobody really thinks we weren't able to build better than an average roster for 5-6 years because Dennis Pitta cost like $7M one year in dead money, or Monroe cost like $7M another year. Even Rice's impact was completely gone by 2016. Like these guys just never made that much, then or now.
When you have a QB who's taking up 20% of the salary cap space, you have to draft your way to better players. There's no way around it. Everybody knew you had to commit to him after 2012, everybody knew by 2015 that the structure of that contract was terrible, and everybody knew in 2016 that you had to restructure it.
2. Sure, some of those players were among the best on the team. That's not saying much however, because on better teams, they wouldn't be. Steve Smith is the best receiver on your team because you make virtually no commitment, FA or the draft, to add talent to the position. Same thing with Safety... we haven't really even attempted to have a young, quality Safety on this team in over a decade. All we've done for the last decade plus is sign FA safeties... literally. Part of that is from poor drafting, and the other part is from not drafting at all. Legitimately not even making an attempt to get better players there.
3. I'm not sure where you're expecting to find all these stud players to be honest. A baron wasteland would be a good description of the place you go to find FA pass rushers, WRs, etc. There's a reason they're not available... because most teams in the league have plenty of money to spend, and most teams have no issue paying them if they want to keep them. In case you hadn't noticed, there are minimal teams who can't afford to retain their own players if they want to. And if they don't want to, we should be asking why.
You'll end up paying top dollar for guys like Judon and ZaDarius Smith. Those are the guys who are available. Von Miller's don't become available. There's only one place you can find those guys, and its not FA.

You can find a Dumervil... a 30 year old guy with 1-2 solid years left. And that's what we got out of him mostly. Those are the guys who are available in FA most of the time.

 

[airconteka]

Lack of FA moves has been more about our obsession with acquiring Comp picks, we have acquired the most in the league and it isn't even close.

 

[RaineV1]

Do you think that maybe it’s possible that those same players you listed for longevity purposes, are the exact reasons we were never able to sign a prime and premiere FA? Those guys are literally the reasons we were in cap hell from 12-18, most of them being extremely high priced and doing next to nothing on the field IF they even saw the field.

That’s what our drafting gets us.

And also let’s not act like this coaching staff developed any of those players. We haven’t developed a prospect into a quality player in idk how long aside from ZDS, Stanley, Judon, Tavon, Humphrey, pierce, and Lamar. Don’t tell me andrews because we didn’t develop him, that man was born a baller. That might be a decently long list but 2 of those players are above average at best and will command top dollar anyway, one has been injured for 50% of his career, and one is a run stuffer and nothing more. Stanley, Humphrey, and Lamar are looking like the only players we’ve been able to develop into real deal franchise caliber players. We’ve been horrible at drafting and even worse at developing. The stockpiling of picks and re signing our average home grown talents and not having the cap space to make splash moves as a result, has been the reason we’ve hovered at .500 for 7 years.

You’re suggesting more of the same it sounds like. This team needs to make some splash moves while they have a star qb and some other offensive stars on rookie deals(assuming Hollywood actually becomes a star). This whole stockpiling picks and being frugal thing has not worked before and it won’t work now. This team can’t draft or develop pass rushers and until we make a move for a proven entity there then we will get carved up by every solid qb in the league

And also you talk about length, but despite these players typically staying 2-3 years, they’re often some of the best players on the team for that stretch. Steve Smith, dumervil, Daryl Smith, Eric weddle, we’re all honestly in the conversation for best player on the team at some point in their time here, Steve Smith went on a tear in year 1 and before his Achilles in year 2 was on a league leading pace, dumervil was racing for top sacker in the league, Daryl Smith was an absolute stud and our 2nd best defender after jimmy in 2013, weddle as we now see was the glue to the leagues best secondary.

Of those long term guys you mentioned we had jimmy who can fall into that same category and even he has hindered our cap big time while sitting on the trainers table

I mean, in the last two years our drafting got us Lamar Jackson, Mark Andrews, Orlando Brown, Bozeman and Hollywood Brown, which we have now on rookie contracts.

Also, I'd like to point out, The Raiders just beat the Bears. The team that traded those first round picks for Mack just got their defense slashed by the guy picked using their draft spot. And the player they traded for? He didn't do much in that game. In fact I would say right now the Raiders are in better position to make the playoffs than the Bears are. Also, the Chiefs made a splash trade for Frank Clark, a proven edge rusher. He hasn't exactly been lighting it up for them.

Also, let's not act like it will all be the same with Wink at DC as it was with Pees at DC. I still blame a lot of our inability to maximize talent on Pees.

 

[cobrajet]

His time with the ravens was almost completely injury riddled. What did he have like half a season in year 2?

Yeah but you can’t predict injuries and Foxworth was playing well before the injury. Now Lee Evans on the other hand can go.............

 

[cobrajet]

These 3 hurt alittle, same with Ben Grubbs. That being said, drafting is the way to go. Trading UP not DOWN. I think EDC is much more aggressive in that regard.

Time will tell. His first draft looks promising.

AMEN brother. You go up to get a blue chip or pick your man. You trade down hoping that someone will still be on the board and they are not. Teams are getting better with their drafts and guys are not slipping like they used to.

 

[RavensMania]

AMEN brother. You go up to get a blue chip or pick your man. You trade down hoping that someone will still be on the board and they are not. Teams are getting better with their drafts and guys are not slipping like they used to.

most of the time you aren't trading down if you have to have that guy. Many times you trade down if you have multiple guys that are just as good and you could have either one of them.

 

[balfan23]

Lack of FA moves has been more about our obsession with acquiring Comp picks, we have acquired the most in the league and it isn't even close.

Yes - comp picks along with the philosophy that it is better to pay your top players rather than to let them go and pay a player from outside.

That really is the best way to go ... only problem is, it doesn't work as well if you over evaluate your own players - or really get unlucky with unforeseen injuries (or other unpredictable disasters, as with Rice) after we make the signing.

 

[GG.exe]

how about Vic Beasley for like a 4th (hes been awful for a couple years now, maybe a change of locale/coach would bring out his best again)

and von miller for a 2nd or something

 

[RaineV1]

how about Vic Beasley for like a 4th (hes been awful for a couple years now, maybe a change of locale/coach would bring out his best again)

and von miller for a 2nd or something

You aren't getting Von Miller for anything less than two first round picks.