The Random Thought Thread

[UPennChem]

Hopkins, Justin Houston, 1st RD CB, Super Bowl

 

[Simba]

True random thought as we're inching closer to the draft: it'd be awesome if the Ravens did a reveal of older draft boards at some point. Not talking anything super recent, but maybe a class or two where all of those players are out of the league.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Okay so… Lamar traded in March, Beckham leaves in FA, we trade hop.

Where’s the harm? Where’s the foul?

Also don’t even compare deandre Hopkins and Odell Beckham to fucking Jeremy Maclin and Michael Crabtree. The difference is that each of the former 2 spent more than a season as a top 2 receiver in the league

Well the harm would be a) the substantial amount of salary cap space you'll take on next year for two players not on the roster and b) the draft pick or picks you have to give up to acquire Hopkins.

That's great. Has either spent time as a top 2 receiver in the league in the last 2 years? Or are they more likely to be not on the field entirely than to be great?

Show me a Lamar extension, then I'll worry about whether or not he has enough "pass catchers" to please himself. I'm not interested in hemorrhaging long term draft picks or salary cap for literally a trio of players who may not even be here. Show me some long term commitments first.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Also, if Lamar is traded and we're definitely going to go get a rookie QB, why are so certain we're trading Hopkins when the young QB will need him and also we'll have an extra 32-51 million dollars

Because Hopkins is probably 3-4 years from being out of the league entirely, and probably himself wouldn't be too thrilled to be part of a "rebuild" with a rookie QB.
Also doesn't mean we get a rookie QB next year either. Could be 2-3 years away.

 

[rmcjacket23]

you say that like that's a problem?
what's wrong with a 1 year rental with either of these guys? - even better if this really is Lamar's last year, try and go and win 1 on the way out

For one of them, sure. For both... its overkill for me. There's one football and four mouths to feed. I think bringing in another expensive veteran on a short term deal is largely an admission that "I don't think one or two of these guys is going to be available enough this season to make it through the season", in which case I don't know why they're here or why they're that expensive to begin with.

If it's Lamar's "last year", we ain't winning shit. I see no scenario where we actually advance deep in the playoffs and then turn around and trade him in the offseason. At that point, we'll probably just cave and pay him well above market value. Trading him in the offseason is what happens when 2023 looks similar to 2020-2022. Which is a quality team that maybe makes the playoffs, gets bounced early, and Lamar probably misses time during it.

 

[rmcjacket23]

The wait might be over early in the 1st round, though.

Not necessarily. They could trade him for future picks, namely in the 2024 draft, where the high-end QB market is substantially better.

There aren't many scenarios where they're getting a draft-night trade for Lamar in 2023 AND landing one of the top 2-3 guys in this draft class anyway.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Well the harm would be a) the substantial amount of salary cap space you'll take on next year for two players not on the roster and b) the draft pick or picks you have to give up to acquire Hopkins.

That's great. Has either spent time as a top 2 receiver in the league in the last 2 years? Or are they more likely to be not on the field entirely than to be great?

Show me a Lamar extension, then I'll worry about whether or not he has enough "pass catchers" to please himself. I'm not interested in hemorrhaging long term draft picks or salary cap for literally a trio of players who may not even be here. Show me some long term commitments first.

1. If Lamar is gone and traded after a year, then none of that matters because it’s literally scrap and rebuild in 2024, by plan, and all of this is made up for by the Lamar trade itself

2. Missing the point. Don’t compare Jeremy maclin and Michael Crabtree to Beckham and Hopkins, you tried to draw a comparison there and that is flat out horseshit and you can post all the ramblings you want but anyone who has watched a snap of football this decade knows that we’re talking all pro vs journeymen. Beckham played on one ACL last year pushing 30, and looked better than maclin and crab in their primes. Get real.

3. Refer to point 1. This is a potential resolution for Lamar’s contract bullshit. Give us a year with no excuses, go for a super bowl, if it fails then so be it, we suffer for a year with our cap but make up for it with the Lamar trade. that’s a lot better than dealing with this contract bullshit and going into the season with 2 oft-injured receivers heading our wr corps, falling short, and going through a rebuild anyway minus hopkins

How scared are you really of one down season? Like holy shit bro lighten up, it’s football, you aren’t financially invested and you won’t lose your balls because we go 6-11 next year. To each his own tho

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Not necessarily. They could trade him for future picks, namely in the 2024 draft, where the high-end QB market is substantially better.

There aren't many scenarios where they're getting a draft-night trade for Lamar in 2023 AND landing one of the top 2-3 guys in this draft class anyway.

Sounds like a plan that could be executed with or without hopkins…

 

[rmcjacket23]

1. If Lamar is gone and traded after a year, then none of that matters because it’s literally scrap and rebuild in 2024, by plan, and all of this is made up for by the Lamar trade itself

2. Missing the point. Don’t compare Jeremy maclin and Michael Crabtree to Beckham and Hopkins, you tried to draw a comparison there and that is flat out horseshit and you can post all the ramblings you want but anyone who has watched a snap of football this decade knows that we’re talking all pro vs journeymen. Beckham played on one ACL last year pushing 30, and looked better than maclin and crab in their primes. Get real.

3. Refer to point 1. This is a potential resolution for Lamar’s contract bullshit. Give us a year with no excuses, go for a super bowl, if it fails then so be it, we suffer for a year with our cap but make up for it with the Lamar trade. that’s a lot better than dealing with this contract bullshit and going into the season with 2 oft-injured receivers heading our wr corps, falling short, and going through a rebuild anyway minus hopkins

How scared are you really of one down season? Like holy shit bro lighten up, it’s football, you aren’t financially invested and you won’t lose your balls because we go 6-11 next year. To each his own tho

1. I can easily compare those players. Have Odell or Hopkins produced here? If they don't, what's the difference between them? One had a higher pedigree before they got here, but still didn't do anything when they were here? What does that do for the Ravens?
Like you really think even with a new OC that this offense is going to get high quality production out of two WRs and an All World TE? Even ignoring the first round WR already on the roster? I think that's some crack-cocaine level ambition.
2. The "scrap and rebuild" in 2024 would likely revolve around only acquiring a rookie QB. In which case you want as much cap space as you can so you can commit to long term receivers and draft picks, not to one year deals for veterans. I don't think trading Lamar means we trade Marlon, Stanley and a heap of other expensive veterans.
3. I don't think its a resolution at all for Lamar's contract. I think if there's people out there who think Lamar is actually dictating personnel demands to get back to the negotiating table, then they need to pass the bong and pass it immediately. We didn't even bother Lamar with input on who the play caller was. You really think we give a shit about his personnel demands?
Lamar is in it for the $. A resolution to this situation is to pay him whatever the hell he wants, or wait him out. The resolution isn't "sign who he wants". We were seriously close to trading for Sutton, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't on Lamar's reported "list".
4. How scared am I of a down year? None. Trading for Hopkins is an indication of being scared of that, and I'm advocating against it. So which one of us is really terrified of having a down year. Trading for Hopkins says "I can't afford to not be a contender this year".
Spoiler alert... how Lamar plays, and the frequency at which he plays, will have exponentially more impact on whether this team is good this year, next year, etc. than any WR you can add will.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Sounds like a plan that could be executed with or without hopkins…

Yup and sounds like a plan that Hopkins would want no part of. What's the upside to Baltimore in the next year or two without Lamar?

 

[JoeyFlex5]

1. I can easily compare those players. Have Odell or Hopkins produced here? If they don't, what's the difference between them? One had a higher pedigree before they got here, but still didn't do anything when they were here? What does that do for the Ravens?
Like you really think even with a new OC that this offense is going to get high quality production out of two WRs and an All World TE? Even ignoring the first round WR already on the roster? I think that's some crack-cocaine level ambition.
2. The "scrap and rebuild" in 2024 would likely revolve around only acquiring a rookie QB. In which case you want as much cap space as you can so you can commit to long term receivers and draft picks, not to one year deals for veterans. I don't think trading Lamar means we trade Marlon, Stanley and a heap of other expensive veterans.
3. I don't think its a resolution at all for Lamar's contract. I think if there's people out there who think Lamar is actually dictating personnel demands to get back to the negotiating table, then they need to pass the bong and pass it immediately. We didn't even bother Lamar with input on who the play caller was. You really think we give a shit about his personnel demands?
Lamar is in it for the $. A resolution to this situation is to pay him whatever the hell he wants, or wait him out. The resolution isn't "sign who he wants". We were seriously close to trading for Sutton, and I'm pretty sure he wasn't on Lamar's reported "list".
4. How scared am I of a down year? None. Trading for Hopkins is an indication of being scared of that, and I'm advocating against it. So which one of us is really terrified of having a down year. Trading for Hopkins says "I can't afford to not be a contender this year".
Spoiler alert... how Lamar plays, and the frequency at which he plays, will have exponentially more impact on whether this team is good this year, next year, etc. than any WR you can add will.

We need a medal superior to a gold one, because your mental gymnastics are so legendary a gold medal doesn’t do it justice.

Yup and sounds like a plan that Hopkins would want no part of. What's the upside to Baltimore in the next year or two without Lamar?

Not sure why you think you get to decide for deandre hopkins but okay lol

 

[rossihunter2]

Because Hopkins is probably 3-4 years from being out of the league entirely, and probably himself wouldn't be too thrilled to be part of a "rebuild" with a rookie QB.
Also doesn't mean we get a rookie QB next year either. Could be 2-3 years away.

In which case you’re not worried about taking on dead cap - that’s the prefect time to take that cap hit

 

[rmcjacket23]

In which case you’re not worried about taking on dead cap - that’s the prefect time to take that cap hit

Depends. What am I spending my cap space on, then?
Also the perfect time to frontload FA and existing roster contract extensions.
But obviously more about the draft pick or picks than anything else.

 

[rmcjacket23]

We need a medal superior to a gold one, because your mental gymnastics are so legendary a gold medal doesn’t do it justice.


Not sure why you think you get to decide for deandre hopkins but okay lol

Probably for the same reason you get to decide whether we should trade for him or not and the reasons for doing so.
If you believe that he's going to agree to get traded to a place with no QB and make the same amount of $, that's certainly an opinion you can have. Not sure its one I'd share with anybody, but hey, its an opinion I guess. Especially when him doing some sort of contract restructure is pretty much the precursor to everything. I'm sure he'll be willing to oblige doing so to help out a team he doesn't want to be traded to anyway.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

In which case you’re not worried about taking on dead cap - that’s the prefect time to take that cap hit

Exactly. We could act like pussies in(potentially) the final season of Lamar, or we could just fucking go for it and try to do something big before we blow it up. I can’t really imagine Lamar getting the offer he wants from Steve if he doesn’t win a ring this year, and by then it’s tag and trade time.

Nfl franchises are cyclical, maximize your window, when the window closes you liquidate and begin planning to build your next window. Striving to just be “competitive” every season and hoping for the best has worked for the chiefs and that’s it, but we don’t have mahomes and Andy Reid, if you wanna get over the hump you gotta give it a push.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Probably for the same reason you get to decide whether we should trade for him or not and the reasons for doing so.
If you believe that he's going to agree to get traded to a place with no QB and make the same amount of $, that's certainly an opinion you can have. Not sure its one I'd share with anybody, but hey, its an opinion I guess. Especially when him doing some sort of contract restructure is pretty much the precursor to everything. I'm sure he'll be willing to oblige doing so to help out a team he doesn't want to be traded to anyway.

so can you cite your source on hopkins saying he doesn’t wanna come to Baltimore if Lamar is traded in 2024?

I don’t need to cite a source when I state my reasoning for wanting hopkins, but if you’re gonna speak for him then you should probably cite a source.

And fair warning man, you’re doing the exact same thing you did with roquan smith. Now go ahead and tell me about the caveats you placed on your tirades about how we wouldn’t make that move…

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Depends. What am I spending my cap space on, then?
Also the perfect time to frontload FA and existing roster contract extensions.
But obviously more about the draft pick or picks than anything else.

Front load contract extensions and FA signings? For who? Maybe deandre hopkins?

See how that works?

 

[rmcjacket23]

so can you cite your source on hopkins saying he doesn’t wanna come to Baltimore if Lamar is traded in 2024?

I don’t need to cite a source when I state my reasoning for wanting hopkins, but if you’re gonna speak for him then you should probably cite a source.

And fair warning man, you’re doing the exact same thing you did with roquan smith. Now go ahead and tell me about the caveats you placed on your tirades about how we wouldn’t make that move…

Nope. You also can't site a source saying he wants to come here, or that the Ravens are even interested in him at this point. The closest you'll get is Pacman Jones and, well, ya know, its Pacman Jones.

I don't need to cite a source for my reasoning of why I don't want Hopkins here. The same thing you're bitching at me for doing... you're doing the exact same thing. You're just not able to realize it.

Actually the reasoning for Roquan was quite different. The reasoning for Roquan was $. We didn't have the $. You tell me who paid for most of his contract last year and then tell me what my other caveats were.

Hopkins has more caveats. Not only is $ a factor, so is draft compensation.

And if you'll note, I haven't dismissed the possibility that it will happen either. I think signing OBJ makes it significantly less likely than it happens, and I don't want it to happen.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Front load contract extensions and FA signings? For who? Maybe deandre hopkins?

See how that works?

Is he my only option? No other FAs or contract extensions available? We not allowed to discuss any other position groups besides WR?
If I have to pay him $15-20M on an extension, why don't I pay somebody else that who's 5-6 years younger and without injury baggage?

Who are the proven, quality pass rushers on our roster? Who are the proven, quality 2nd or 3rd corners we have on our roster?
Think maybe you want to address some of those things via FA at some point, or are we only allowed to use draft picks on those and we have to sign veteran WRs because the natives are terrified of historical failures at that position?

 

[UPennChem]

Ah we've chosen violence this morning lolol