Next Up: @ Washington

[JAAM]

In my opinion, the notion of a 3-4 vs 4-3 is largely irrelevant in the modern NFL. You're spending most of your snaps in either Nickel or Dime coverage. Your "base" packages are like 20 snaps a game or less in a lot of cases.

Plus, like yeah you could make the switch, but does it really matter if you don't have the personnel? What DT's or DE's do we have on the roster that are really going to matter in a 4-3? Campbell? He'll be retired in 2-3 years, so I'm not switching base packages just for him.

Good points. I’m just getting frustrated with the heavy blitzing and not finishing. Teams are starting to catch on. We’d be eaten alive by prime Brady and Manning

 

[JAAM]

This probably isn't the thread for this but at this point I'm so incredibly happy we didn't pay Judon thank god

I mean, we kind of did lol. That bum isn’t even worth half of the tag. We could’ve had one of the three big names but missed out on all of them because of his ass

and yea, Clowney isn’t a sack guy himself unless you scheme him which we would do, but at least he sets the tone in the run game. I remember him tossing Boyle out the way in Seattle like Boyle was 100 pounds. You HAVE to game plan for Clowney. I keep going back to this, but Judon couldn’t get past Austin MF Hooper.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Good points. I’m just getting frustrated with the heavy blitzing and not finishing. Teams are starting to catch on. We’d be eaten alive by prime Brady and Manning

Yes and no.
I think sacks are a horrible measurement of pressure. If we get pressure that forces a QB to make an off-target throw, or rush a throw that results in an incompletion, that's a good outcome. If we force pressure that makes the QB go to a different read, that's a good outcome. If we force pressure that results in an incompletion, that's a good outcome.
A lot of people used to look at QB hits, but these days, you can hit a QB a lot and it doesn't mean anything.
Ken over at FilmStudy does a write up on ATS (ample time and space), which is an indication of how much time and space a QB has to go through his progressions, read a defense, and deliver.
I'm not suggesting that we're getting enough pressure, because we're not. But sacks are just one metric of that. Like Bowser got pressure on multiple occasions Monday night, and Mahomes still beat it with large completions. I can't fault the pass rush for that per-say.

 

[RavensFan419]

I mean, we kind of did lol. That bum isn’t even worth half of the tag. We could’ve had one of the three big names but missed out on all of them because of his ass

and yea, Clowney isn’t a sack guy himself unless you scheme him which we would do, but at least he sets the tone in the run game. I remember him tossing Boyle out the way in Seattle like Boyle was 100 pounds. You HAVE to game plan for Clowney. I keep going back to this, but Judon couldn’t get past Austin MF Hooper.

The tag is the tag I can love with that especially considering what happened with Z smith but paying him top pass rusher money for years to come yeah right

 

[rossihunter2]

Seriously though, are there any great pass rushers on shitty teams with a year or two left on their deals that we can pry away? I’m starting to think the Wolfe signing was a wash.

JO said something interesting in another thread. He commented on maybe switching to a 43 next season and replicating the 9ers’s system. We have a cover LB in Queen. Can Harrison play OLB in coverage? Then just go all out on pass rushers in the draft that put their hands in the dirt and get lucky and nab one for cheap in FA. This big dime blitzing crap is being exposed. It’s not going to work against the cerebral QBs like we saw Monday night. We need organic pressure

i dont get the point of that - we hardly play any base personnel anyway - the only type of game it would really make a difference in is one like the browns game where we spent a larger proportion of the game in our base 3-4

ultimately we're normally running some sort of nickel at least which means that we're in a 2-4 anyway and the difference between a 2-4 and a 4-2 is basically nothing - the only philosophical difference is that your edge in a 2-4 is more likely an option to drop into coverage

the ravens value versatility and to a certain extent we value positionless football on defence so the more things you can do the more helpful you are to the scheme which relies on disguise to create free rushers etc. and as good as an edge rusher is he's not going to get to the QB through a blocker quicker than a DB with a clear path to the QB - that's the philosophy which is why its important that as many players as possible can be multiple

that being said we dont really take anyone off our draft board just because they're not good in coverage - we've drafted multiple edge rushers recently who arent notably for their play in space in coverage etc. the problem is that they havent panned out so well (or they've moved on like ZDS) - it's really frustrating tim williams didnt pan out with all the potential he had and jaylon ferguson hasnt done much of anything so far in his young career

the "dime blitzing" as you put it has worked against the most cerebral of QBs in the game notorious for beating the blitz last year - it's done awful things to good qbs but KC just had all the answers - that's partly on a coaching level - they neutered the blitz with screens, trick plays and ultimately just mahomes being magic avoiding those rushers and buying enough time for someone to get loose - KC had too many weapons that allowed them to have too many answers and their gameplan and situational football was just miles better than ours

that doesnt mean that blitzing as a philosophy doesnt work - it worked a lot in 2019 and it worked a lot in 2018 too

it hasnt worked in week 1 against a really good OL and it hasnt worked in week 3 against the best team in football - that's disappointing and we have lots of things to fix and some of it i think is coaching, some if it is execution and some of it unfortunately i think is unfixable in 2020

 

[rossihunter2]

Good points. I’m just getting frustrated with the heavy blitzing and not finishing. Teams are starting to catch on. We’d be eaten alive by prime Brady and Manning

teams can catch on all they like but they've got to have a QB and OC/playcaller who can identify where the blitz is coming from and whether it's coming and call the perfect counter - knowing the blitz is coming doesnt help you if you cant deal with it

the bigger problem is the lack of finishing than the philosophy behind the blitzing

the steelers are blitzing even more than we are and with a worse secondary but their blitz is getting home - that's the difference

 

[rossihunter2]

Yes and no.
I think sacks are a horrible measurement of pressure. If we get pressure that forces a QB to make an off-target throw, or rush a throw that results in an incompletion, that's a good outcome. If we force pressure that makes the QB go to a different read, that's a good outcome. If we force pressure that results in an incompletion, that's a good outcome.
A lot of people used to look at QB hits, but these days, you can hit a QB a lot and it doesn't mean anything.
Ken over at FilmStudy does a write up on ATS (ample time and space), which is an indication of how much time and space a QB has to go through his progressions, read a defense, and deliver.
I'm not suggesting that we're getting enough pressure, because we're not. But sacks are just one metric of that. Like Bowser got pressure on multiple occasions Monday night, and Mahomes still beat it with large completions. I can't fault the pass rush for that per-say.

unfortunately while bowser had a nice game the pass rush through 3 weeks has not been great according to multiple metrics

looking at pressures more generally - the ravens blitz on nearly 46% of plays so far this season (that's 2nd most in the NFL behind only the steelers) but have a pressure rate of 18% which is 7th worst in the NFL

we are 3rd worst in QB hits only ahead of the bengals and panthers

i think the frustration comes from the fact that even when we do create pressures and QB hits - we've allowed watson and mahomes the last 2 weeks to spin out of those hits and turn what should be sacks and negative yardage into big plays or at worst throwaways that keep them at least on schedule - we're not capitalising in those moments

bowser had the great rush to get the hit on mahomes but mahomes managed to shrug him off - those kinds of missed opportunities are more important when the pressure's not consistently manifesting even with the blitz

 

[rmcjacket23]

i dont get the point of that - we hardly play any base personnel anyway - the only type of game it would really make a difference in is one like the browns game where we spent a larger proportion of the game in our base 3-4

ultimately we're normally running some sort of nickel at least which means that we're in a 2-4 anyway and the difference between a 2-4 and a 4-2 is basically nothing - the only philosophical difference is that your edge in a 2-4 is more likely an option to drop into coverage

the ravens value versatility and to a certain extent we value positionless football on defence so the more things you can do the more helpful you are to the scheme which relies on disguise to create free rushers etc. and as good as an edge rusher is he's not going to get to the QB through a blocker quicker than a DB with a clear path to the QB - that's the philosophy which is why its important that as many players as possible can be multiple

that being said we dont really take anyone off our draft board just because they're not good in coverage - we've drafted multiple edge rushers recently who arent notably for their play in space in coverage etc. the problem is that they havent panned out so well (or they've moved on like ZDS) - it's really frustrating tim williams didnt pan out with all the potential he had and jaylon ferguson hasnt done much of anything so far in his young career

the "dime blitzing" as you put it has worked against the most cerebral of QBs in the game notorious for beating the blitz last year - it's done awful things to good qbs but KC just had all the answers - that's partly on a coaching level - they neutered the blitz with screens, trick plays and ultimately just mahomes being magic avoiding those rushers and buying enough time for someone to get loose - KC had too many weapons that allowed them to have too many answers and their gameplan and situational football was just miles better than ours

that doesnt mean that blitzing as a philosophy doesnt work - it worked a lot in 2019 and it worked a lot in 2018 too

it hasnt worked in week 1 against a really good OL and it hasnt worked in week 3 against the best team in football - that's disappointing and we have lots of things to fix and some of it i think is coaching, some if it is execution and some of it unfortunately i think is unfixable in 2020

For context:
By my count, we've had 195 defensive snaps this year.

We've played a variation of Nickel (5 DBs), Dime (6 DBs), or Quarters (only one snap) on 80% of our defensive snaps.

We've only played 30 base 3-4 alignment snaps the whole year so far, and 20 of those were in week 1 against Cleveland. We did not play a single snap of 3-4 against Houston, and only played 10 snaps of 3-4 against KC.

We mixed it up a bunch more against Cleveland, which is of course indicative of their run-heavy approach and desire to stack. We played a total of 27 snaps with 7 Dlineman/Linebacker combos, though not all of them were in a traditional 3-4.

 

[rossihunter2]

For context:
By my count, we've had 195 defensive snaps this year.

We've played a variation of Nickel (5 DBs), Dime (6 DBs), or Quarters (only one snap) on 80% of our defensive snaps.

We've only played 30 base 3-4 alignment snaps the whole year so far, and 20 of those were in week 1 against Cleveland. We did not play a single snap of 3-4 against Houston, and only played 10 snaps of 3-4 against KC.

We mixed it up a bunch more against Cleveland, which is of course indicative of their run-heavy approach and desire to stack. We played a total of 27 snaps with 7 Dlineman/Linebacker combos, though not all of them were in a traditional 3-4.

given all of that all that really changes in a 4-3 vs a 3-4 in modern day nfl is whether you're asking your defensive lineman to more frequently 2-gap or 1-gap and tbh most defences now use hybrids in that context too now based on different down contexts

 

[JoeyFlex5]

So, I think it depends on what drive you're looking at.

The second drive, when we're down 6-3, we basically have to throw. Its 1st and 20, not 1st and 10. We ran it on first down, and Boyle gets called for a phantom tripping penalty. Its a bad call obviously, but the fact remains you now need 20 yards, not 10. Now your playbook is significantly less open, and we punt. Like you can run the ball there, but you're still looking at 2nd and/or 3rd and long, since its not like our running game, outside of Lamar, was going for chunk yardage early in the game. That's been our problem all year... last year we would start the game with chunk runs. We've had very few of those until the second half this season.

Now, our first possession in the 2nd quarter, where we're down 13-10, we did go three and out on 3 passes, which was an interesting play call to be certain. But our defense was also fairly rested at that point, having forced a 3 and out the prior drive.

The next time we get the ball back, we're down 20-10, we do run twice, but only for 5 yards. Then you're down 27-10, we're in the 2 minute drill now (all passing obviously), and you're down 17 at half, which obviously limits your ability to run and get back in the game in the second half.

So in my eyes, there's basically one drive that was head scratching to me in the first half. I was actually overtly critical of our "run first" mentality in the second half, because you literally don't have time for 7 minute drives when you're down 17-20 points in the 2nd half.

You don’t think mark Ingram’s regression has anything to do with the lack of chunk runs? Along with the refusal to hand dobbins the ball? We also have been much more vanilla in the run game it appears, so many runs look like either power sweeps or just plain dives until late in games when we start running Gus. I say with 100% certainty that we would have chunk runs early in the game and often if we replaced Ingram’s carries with dobbins, because there were openings in the field that Ingram simply couldn’t take full advantage of, he could hit the hole to gain a few and it would close before he can break through, but dobbins is freakishly explosive and given the same hole he would have broke for chunks, I counted 3 Ingram runs in the first quarter alone where he gained a few but the lack of extra gear clearly made for a missed opportunity for a chunk.

I’d still run on first and 20 as well, you can pass your life away and say you wanted to keep up with the chiefs and this or that situation called for it, but airing it out is not what we do, you can blame the players for their lack of execution which is also fair, but it’s a whole shit ton easier to blame the players for not executing if the coaches are deploying a sound gameplan, and running the ball against a weak run defense to control the clock and working your strengths is a sound game plan, getting into a shootout with the chiefs is not, deploy the right game plan and if the players don’t execute what they do best, so be it, but at least give them that chance to fail.

I have confidence btw in us picking up a chunk on first and 20.

the biggest thing for me though is that Ingram is clearly the third best back on the team, we will never get our run game on track if we abandon it and then force feed Ingram after falling into a deficit, dobbins needs carries.

also, if we wanna go pass happy, stop throwing drags, they’re sitting down on top of everything and making tackles, if you wanna air it out, run play action, hit the intermediate, go deep occasionally, the lack of creativity and design in the route tree was laughable.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

i dont get the point of that - we hardly play any base personnel anyway - the only type of game it would really make a difference in is one like the browns game where we spent a larger proportion of the game in our base 3-4

ultimately we're normally running some sort of nickel at least which means that we're in a 2-4 anyway and the difference between a 2-4 and a 4-2 is basically nothing - the only philosophical difference is that your edge in a 2-4 is more likely an option to drop into coverage

the ravens value versatility and to a certain extent we value positionless football on defence so the more things you can do the more helpful you are to the scheme which relies on disguise to create free rushers etc. and as good as an edge rusher is he's not going to get to the QB through a blocker quicker than a DB with a clear path to the QB - that's the philosophy which is why its important that as many players as possible can be multiple

that being said we dont really take anyone off our draft board just because they're not good in coverage - we've drafted multiple edge rushers recently who arent notably for their play in space in coverage etc. the problem is that they havent panned out so well (or they've moved on like ZDS) - it's really frustrating tim williams didnt pan out with all the potential he had and jaylon ferguson hasnt done much of anything so far in his young career

the "dime blitzing" as you put it has worked against the most cerebral of QBs in the game notorious for beating the blitz last year - it's done awful things to good qbs but KC just had all the answers - that's partly on a coaching level - they neutered the blitz with screens, trick plays and ultimately just mahomes being magic avoiding those rushers and buying enough time for someone to get loose - KC had too many weapons that allowed them to have too many answers and their gameplan and situational football was just miles better than ours

that doesnt mean that blitzing as a philosophy doesnt work - it worked a lot in 2019 and it worked a lot in 2018 too

it hasnt worked in week 1 against a really good OL and it hasnt worked in week 3 against the best team in football - that's disappointing and we have lots of things to fix and some of it i think is coaching, some if it is execution and some of it unfortunately i think is unfixable in 2020

2 things kept our pass rush from being effective, Andy Reid and mahomes. Andy Reid was an absolute madman with the plays he came up with to beat the blitz, he put on a playcalling and game planning clinic, I’ll go so far to say that it may have been his signature game, I’ve never been so in awe of playcalling brilliance before, and then there’s mahomes, sometimes he’s rattled by confusing looks and pressure, but Monday night he wasn’t, and not only was he not rattled, but he was avoiding strong rushes to shake off would be sacks, and he was finishing those plays by heaving them deep.

mahomes and Reid would’ve torched the 2000/2006/2008 ravens Monday night. They were just absolutely on fire.

 

[rossihunter2]

2 things kept our pass rush from being effective, Andy Reid and mahomes. Andy Reid was an absolute madman with the plays he came up with to beat the blitz, he put on a playcalling and game planning clinic, I’ll go so far to say that it may have been his signature game, I’ve never been so in awe of playcalling brilliance before, and then there’s mahomes, sometimes he’s rattled by confusing looks and pressure, but Monday night he wasn’t, and not only was he not rattled, but he was avoiding strong rushes to shake off would be sacks, and he was finishing those plays by heaving them deep.

mahomes and Reid would’ve torched the 2000/2006/2008 ravens Monday night. They were just absolutely on fire.

it was hard to be mad even while we were being smashed at home because from the first drive on it was a masterclass by the other team - even their turnover came after converting 1st down lol

that being said i think the pass rush is a problem - we didnt affect the QB enough against the browns or chiefs and it's starting to become a trend

 

[rossihunter2]

nick moore makes a lot more sense now given the titans situation - a long snapper we like to replace cox if all hell breaks loose and we have a mini outbreak

 

[Simba]

nick moore makes a lot more sense now given the titans situation - a long snapper we like to replace cox if all hell breaks loose and we have a mini outbreak

We would have beaten the Chiefs if NICK MOORE SZN was in full effect

 

[rossihunter2]

We would have beaten the Chiefs if NICK MOORE SZN was in full effect

if he ever does play a snap for the ravens - watch it be a fake punt

 

[SepticeyePoe]

 

[JoeyFlex5]

it was hard to be mad even while we were being smashed at home because from the first drive on it was a masterclass by the other team - even their turnover came after converting 1st down lol

that being said i think the pass rush is a problem - we didnt affect the QB enough against the browns or chiefs and it's starting to become a trend

Oh I agree it’s a problem, I’m just saying that the chiefs game was a bit of an anomaly maybe? Because we were getting close but mahomes was just on fire and then they gameplanned around the blitz

 

[rossihunter2]

madubuike and chris moore not limited let's go!!

 

[rmcjacket23]

You don’t think mark Ingram’s regression has anything to do with the lack of chunk runs? Along with the refusal to hand dobbins the ball? We also have been much more vanilla in the run game it appears, so many runs look like either power sweeps or just plain dives until late in games when we start running Gus. I say with 100% certainty that we would have chunk runs early in the game and often if we replaced Ingram’s carries with dobbins, because there were openings in the field that Ingram simply couldn’t take full advantage of, he could hit the hole to gain a few and it would close before he can break through, but dobbins is freakishly explosive and given the same hole he would have broke for chunks, I counted 3 Ingram runs in the first quarter alone where he gained a few but the lack of extra gear clearly made for a missed opportunity for a chunk.

I’d still run on first and 20 as well, you can pass your life away and say you wanted to keep up with the chiefs and this or that situation called for it, but airing it out is not what we do, you can blame the players for their lack of execution which is also fair, but it’s a whole shit ton easier to blame the players for not executing if the coaches are deploying a sound gameplan, and running the ball against a weak run defense to control the clock and working your strengths is a sound game plan, getting into a shootout with the chiefs is not, deploy the right game plan and if the players don’t execute what they do best, so be it, but at least give them that chance to fail.

I have confidence btw in us picking up a chunk on first and 20.

the biggest thing for me though is that Ingram is clearly the third best back on the team, we will never get our run game on track if we abandon it and then force feed Ingram after falling into a deficit, dobbins needs carries.

also, if we wanna go pass happy, stop throwing drags, they’re sitting down on top of everything and making tackles, if you wanna air it out, run play action, hit the intermediate, go deep occasionally, the lack of creativity and design in the route tree was laughable.

1. I think Ingram and the offense's whole regression in the run game, especially in the first half, is largely predicated on teams scheming to take away our ability to run. Against Cleveland, that looked silly, because Lamar shredded them until they retreated. Against KC, it looked like absolutely the right move, because Lamar wasn't shredding anybody.
2. I'd run it on 1st and 20 too, I'm just saying the only real upside to doing it is to waste clock, which seems odd, since you're in the first quarter. Even if we get a 10-12 yard run, you're still looking at 2nd and 8-10, which is typically a passing down. Worst case is you run it, gain like 2-3 yards, and now its 2nd and very long. I'm not running the ball just to pretend like I care about "ball possession". Ball possession works when you convert long drives into points (and in KC's case, touchdowns). We can have the ball for 45 minutes, and if we only score like 15 points, it's still going to be an L, because KC is more than capable, and usually does, score 2-3 TDs in the matter of 15 minutes of ball possession.
3. I don't disagree on Ingram, and I think his workload will decrease as we move forward.
4. I'm not really a "blame the gameplan" guy. I've never seen a gameplan that was designed to fail. I bet if every single fan sat in the prep rooms for this game, they would have praised Roman for his gameplan.
I think there are gameplans that don't work and need to be changed, due to how the defense reacts to it, which we sort of did (although too late), but I've yet to see an OC come up with a gameplan that is designed on using your weaknesses to attack another team's strengths.
I have seen, on thousands of occasions, players poorly execute gameplans.

That's kind of the rub here. When fans evaluate gameplans, its usually pass/fail. If we win and score a lot of points, great game plan. If we don't, bad game plan.

5. I had to be the bearer of bad news, but our receiving core, including the TE's, isn't designed to be able to run the full route tree. They don't run the 12 yard outs or comebacks like Boldin or Mason used to. They're YAC guys. You put the ball in their hands and expect them to make plays. Andrews is the closest thing we have to a "possession" receiver, and he drops balls and primarily only works the middle of the field.
A lot of fans on here were clamoring for speed, speed, and more speed, so we can act like KC. This is what only having speed looks like. You get behind, teams take away the deep ball, and here you are.

 

[rossihunter2]

1. I think Ingram and the offense's whole regression in the run game, especially in the first half, is largely predicated on teams scheming to take away our ability to run. Against Cleveland, that looked silly, because Lamar shredded them until they retreated. Against KC, it looked like absolutely the right move, because Lamar wasn't shredding anybody.
2. I'd run it on 1st and 20 too, I'm just saying the only real upside to doing it is to waste clock, which seems odd, since you're in the first quarter. Even if we get a 10-12 yard run, you're still looking at 2nd and 8-10, which is typically a passing down. Worst case is you run it, gain like 2-3 yards, and now its 2nd and very long. I'm not running the ball just to pretend like I care about "ball possession". Ball possession works when you convert long drives into points (and in KC's case, touchdowns). We can have the ball for 45 minutes, and if we only score like 15 points, it's still going to be an L, because KC is more than capable, and usually does, score 2-3 TDs in the matter of 15 minutes of ball possession.
3. I don't disagree on Ingram, and I think his workload will decrease as we move forward.
4. I'm not really a "blame the gameplan" guy. I've never seen a gameplan that was designed to fail. I bet if every single fan sat in the prep rooms for this game, they would have praised Roman for his gameplan.
I think there are gameplans that don't work and need to be changed, due to how the defense reacts to it, which we sort of did (although too late), but I've yet to see an OC come up with a gameplan that is designed on using your weaknesses to attack another team's strengths.
I have seen, on thousands of occasions, players poorly execute gameplans.

That's kind of the rub here. When fans evaluate gameplans, its usually pass/fail. If we win and score a lot of points, great game plan. If we don't, bad game plan.

5. I had to be the bearer of bad news, but our receiving core, including the TE's, isn't designed to be able to run the full route tree. They don't run the 12 yard outs or comebacks like Boldin or Mason used to. They're YAC guys. You put the ball in their hands and expect them to make plays. Andrews is the closest thing we have to a "possession" receiver, and he drops balls and primarily only works the middle of the field.
A lot of fans on here were clamoring for speed, speed, and more speed, so we can act like KC. This is what only having speed looks like. You get behind, teams take away the deep ball, and here you are.

the reason I’d have run it on 1st and 20 is because the running game was going at 10 yards a clip at that point in the game and on the tripping call to put us behind the chain we’d just picked up a small chunk