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The Lamar, The other kind of Browns and The Guts

jdynamite

Ravens Ring of Honor
Hollywood will get criticised - fairly - for the potentially catastrophic drops

but credit where credit's due - the Browns tried to jam the hell out of him and bully him within those first 5 yards and he fought his way through the contact of 2 separate DBs to come open - it's the kind of physicality that he's not shown earlier in the year and it's the kind of fight that's nice to see

without him forcing his way out of that contact, we don't convert that 4th and 5 and the game probably ends very differently

the mental hole he's got himself into with these drops is a real problem though but I'm not going to ignore the good things he's doing as a 2nd year player

i think what's been shown though is that however good he can be we cannot rely on him and we cannot afford to go into 2021 without adding more receiving weapons

M.Brown has definitely developed the Yipps after his little Twitter Rant. I thought after that statement he’d turn around and make a statement on the field by making some plays. I thought by now we’d have a highlight reel of busted plays where he and Lamar hook up for some 8 yard completion that brown turns into 20+ YAC. Have some of that T.Lockett & R.Wilson chemistry on broken plays.
 

jdynamite

Ravens Ring of Honor
The good : We found a way to win! Lamar played more freely taking whatever the defense gave him (if he connects with several of those off throws then it would been a 2019 type game as far as passing efficiency + run dominance. ) We finally saw the team committee to running Dobbins and Gus over Ingram!!

The Bad: Lack of finishing plays!! *The defense continues this horrible trend of “almost sacked the QB”. It’s crazy how many times they failed to finish the sack and it become a 3rd or 4th down completion. With a battered secondary the pass rushers must finish these plays. The browns fumbled at least 3 times and we never recovered the ball.
Hollywood had several easy dropped passes from Lamar and Trace that could have moved the chains.

Why aren’t they using Duvernay more? We saw this kid is capable of making plays, I thought once Boyle went down it would naturally lead to more opportunities for a Duvernay with less multiple TE packages. If G.Roman remains with this team then they need to find a Passing Game Coordinator someone to assist with evolving this team’s attack!
 
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rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Why aren’t they using Duvernay more? We saw this kid is capable of making plays, I thought once Boyle went down it would naturally lead to more opportunities for a Duvernay with less multiple TE packages. If G.Roman remains with this team then they need to find a Passing Game Coordinator someone to assist with evolving this team’s attack!

idk why but he only had 9 snaps against the browns which is a big dropoff in playing time
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
My takeaways:
1. Hollywood should never complain about lack of targets ever again. He should be grateful Lamar even looked his way on that TD catch. I was actually hoping he wouldn't. I think Lamar would have ran for the first down, and we would have been able to drain the clock down to kick the game winning FG, instead of giving Cleveland the ball back.
2. There is no earthly reason on this planet for Mark Ingram to be active on gamedays. None.
3. The pass rush wasn't good, but I don't think it was as bad as people think it was. Lack of sacks makes it seem like there wasn't pressure. Browns have an elite offensive line, and I thought we did respectable getting pressure. It faltered late in the game when we needed it most, but that's a combination of other factors (see below).
4. Roster management seems to be odd at this point. I have no idea why you're only activating four corners. Like if the pregame argument is "we need big bodies up front to stop the run", then OK, but what's your plan to win the game?

If I drew up a plan to win the game, its stop the run early (which we largely did), run the ball ourselves (which we did) and get a lead that forces Baker to stand in shotgun and throw it all over the yard (which we did). We accomplished all of those things by early 3rd quarter.

If that's your strategy to win... how the hell does it work when you have 4 Corners healthy, one of which was questionable to begin with and is always banged up? We had 6 Dlineman active... how much rotation do you need on the Dline to be able to stop the run? Even with Campbell seemingly not healthy (though he played more than we expected), why have so many bodies there if the gameplan is to make them one dimensional? There's preparing for the worst, and then there's no protecting yourself.

By my count, we had FOURTEEN Dlineman and linebackers who dressed. We only had 8 Secondary players, two of which are essentially only special teams players on a weekly basis.

Basically, you're one DB injury away from essentially being unable to play Dime coverage, which is basically what happened. And you would probably want to be playing some Dime coverage when you have a 14 point lead in the 2nd half, or when the other team is trying to score in a short period of time late in the game. And you basically can't (or at least can't play it effectively), strictly because of personnel. You get 4-5 guys go down, so be it. Peters missed some snaps. Fine.

But losing just one player, Jimmy, who is your 3rd corner, completely altered your entire defense, and some of that is due to roster management.

5 RBs active on gameday, including Ricard. There's almost no justification for that anymore. And I don't know that I'd have 6 Dlineman and 8 linebackers out there either.

5. Saying all of that... defense, just make a play late. Like we can come up with all the excuses in the world, but in reality, it falls on deaf ears for me.

Hobbled or not, your top 4 secondary players are out there. Your front seven is essentially in tact, though maybe Campbell is a little gimpy. Make a play. By my count, offense went and hung 38 points on the Browns with basically no help from the defense. We forced one turnover that led to a score, and it was a big play. But that's not enough. Offense scores 38. Your QB is in the locker room. You had a 14 point lead.
FINISH. We spend all season bashing the offense for not doing their job week in and week out. They scored 38 last night. Defense, you step up this time. One drive. One stop. Pretty much anything, and the game is yours.

4, count them, 4 70+ yard TD drives in the second half for Cleveland. I'm not even buying the "tired" line. Ravens had an almost 5 minute drive to take the lead with under 2 minutes left. Plenty of time to rest and recover. Then all the Ravens defense did was give up 75 yards in 4 plays in under a minute.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
idk why but he only had 9 snaps against the browns which is a big dropoff in playing time
I mean... 20 pass attempts, a run heavy game script, and the offense not getting a lot of plays due to the Browns offense being on the field all night. 9 is a low number, but I'm not sure i'd be expecting a lot more with this kind of game script.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I mean... 20 pass attempts, a run heavy game script, and the offense not getting a lot of plays due to the Browns offense being on the field all night. 9 is a low number, but I'm not sure i'd be expecting a lot more with this kind of game script.

that's true - i think also that his numbers were probably hurt by the return of willie snead who typically is involved in those motions across the formation in running downs to help create a man advantage on the playside of the running plays whereas when duvernay motions it's often for deceptive reasons (faking the end-around etc.)

im surprised we didnt throw a screen his way at some point or actually hand it off to him on one of those end-around motions just to keep the outside of the browns defence honest - but for the most part it seems that was unnecessary
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
that's true - i think also that his numbers were probably hurt by the return of willie snead who typically is involved in those motions across the formation in running downs to help create a man advantage on the playside of the running plays whereas when duvernay motions it's often for deceptive reasons (faking the end-around etc.)

im surprised we didnt throw a screen his way at some point or actually hand it off to him on one of those end-around motions just to keep the outside of the browns defence honest - but for the most part it seems that was unnecessary
Well here's to hoping that we can take care of business early on Sunday, get a good lead, and rest some guys, while allowing people like Duvernay and Proche to get some snaps and some opportunities.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
My takeaways:
1. Hollywood should never complain about lack of targets ever again. He should be grateful Lamar even looked his way on that TD catch. I was actually hoping he wouldn't. I think Lamar would have ran for the first down, and we would have been able to drain the clock down to kick the game winning FG, instead of giving Cleveland the ball back.
2. There is no earthly reason on this planet for Mark Ingram to be active on gamedays. None.
3. The pass rush wasn't good, but I don't think it was as bad as people think it was. Lack of sacks makes it seem like there wasn't pressure. Browns have an elite offensive line, and I thought we did respectable getting pressure. It faltered late in the game when we needed it most, but that's a combination of other factors (see below).
4. Roster management seems to be odd at this point. I have no idea why you're only activating four corners. Like if the pregame argument is "we need big bodies up front to stop the run", then OK, but what's your plan to win the game?

If I drew up a plan to win the game, its stop the run early (which we largely did), run the ball ourselves (which we did) and get a lead that forces Baker to stand in shotgun and throw it all over the yard (which we did). We accomplished all of those things by early 3rd quarter.

If that's your strategy to win... how the hell does it work when you have 4 Corners healthy, one of which was questionable to begin with and is always banged up? We had 6 Dlineman active... how much rotation do you need on the Dline to be able to stop the run? Even with Campbell seemingly not healthy (though he played more than we expected), why have so many bodies there if the gameplan is to make them one dimensional? There's preparing for the worst, and then there's no protecting yourself.

By my count, we had FOURTEEN Dlineman and linebackers who dressed. We only had 8 Secondary players, two of which are essentially only special teams players on a weekly basis.

Basically, you're one DB injury away from essentially being unable to play Dime coverage, which is basically what happened. And you would probably want to be playing some Dime coverage when you have a 14 point lead in the 2nd half, or when the other team is trying to score in a short period of time late in the game. And you basically can't (or at least can't play it effectively), strictly because of personnel. You get 4-5 guys go down, so be it. Peters missed some snaps. Fine.

But losing just one player, Jimmy, who is your 3rd corner, completely altered your entire defense, and some of that is due to roster management.

5 RBs active on gameday, including Ricard. There's almost no justification for that anymore. And I don't know that I'd have 6 Dlineman and 8 linebackers out there either.

5. Saying all of that... defense, just make a play late. Like we can come up with all the excuses in the world, but in reality, it falls on deaf ears for me.

Hobbled or not, your top 4 secondary players are out there. Your front seven is essentially in tact, though maybe Campbell is a little gimpy. Make a play. By my count, offense went and hung 38 points on the Browns with basically no help from the defense. We forced one turnover that led to a score, and it was a big play. But that's not enough. Offense scores 38. Your QB is in the locker room. You had a 14 point lead.
FINISH. We spend all season bashing the offense for not doing their job week in and week out. They scored 38 last night. Defense, you step up this time. One drive. One stop. Pretty much anything, and the game is yours.

4, count them, 4 70+ yard TD drives in the second half for Cleveland. I'm not even buying the "tired" line. Ravens had an almost 5 minute drive to take the lead with under 2 minutes left. Plenty of time to rest and recover. Then all the Ravens defense did was give up 75 yards in 4 plays in under a minute.
Slammed all these points, Plus all those bodies and we STILL let them gash us half the night
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor
After the TD catch it appears John was speaking to Hollywood.


Boy did I love that
 

organizedchaos21

Practice Squad
that's true - i think also that his numbers were probably hurt by the return of willie snead who typically is involved in those motions across the formation in running downs to help create a man advantage on the playside of the running plays whereas when duvernay motions it's often for deceptive reasons (faking the end-around etc.)

im surprised we didnt throw a screen his way at some point or actually hand it off to him on one of those end-around motions just to keep the outside of the browns defence honest - but for the most part it seems that was unnecessary

Snead's consistently been #2 WR in terms of snaps. Duvernay's snaps came at the expense of Boykin, who took them back last night (after a good performance vs. DAL).

They did hand it off to him! And it might have gone for a TD! But the play clock ran out, and JH called a time out (Q2, 07:52).
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Snead's consistently been #2 WR in terms of snaps. Duvernay's snaps came at the expense of Boykin, who took them back last night (after a good performance vs. DAL).

They did hand it off to him! And it might have gone for a TD! But the play clock ran out, and JH called a time out (Q2, 07:52).
At this point, how does one even attempt to justify Ingram with a gameday roster spot?
 

gtalk12

Ravens Ring of Honor
You have got to see the melt down on the Browns forum. I read a comment that states everything that happened was scripted
 

organizedchaos21

Practice Squad
At this point, how does one even attempt to justify Ingram with a gameday roster spot?

I certainly can't. Thought it was about a consecutive starts streak, but according to PFR, he didn't start against TEN. Spotrac doesn't have any incentives in his deal either (doesn't mean they're not there). Would not be surprised to see him in street clothes at any point in the next 3 games.

Averett wasn't on the injury report, right? Just a straight healthy scratch? Mind-boggling.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I certainly can't. Thought it was about a consecutive starts streak, but according to PFR, he didn't start against TEN. Spotrac doesn't have any incentives in his deal either (doesn't mean they're not there). Would not be surprised to see him in street clothes at any point in the next 3 games.

Averett wasn't on the injury report, right? Just a straight healthy scratch? Mind-boggling.
1. If they are somehow keeping Ingram active just to hit a "starting streak" and then letting him ride pine all game, that's the biggest bunch of bullshit I've ever heard. Like its one thing to do it for Brandon Carr, because he was still a rotational player who played meaningful snaps. He was getting the "start" over Jimmy and Marlon frequently, but he was playing like 40-50% of the snaps a lot. There's nothing close to that for Ingram.
2. I was going to say Averett could have been a scratch because he just got activated off IR and wasn't ready yet, but then I recall he played a healthy dose of snaps just 7 days ago against Dallas, so that can't be it.

In my eyes, there's no argument for Ingram.

The argument for only carrying 4 Corners must have boiled down to special teams contributions AND the desire to have a heavier front seven package to combat the run. Makes some sense, however, as I wrote above, if your strategy for winning the game means to stop the run early, build a lead, and make Baker throw, how is that strategy going to be effective when you only have 4 corners out there, of which one is Jimmy, who was already questionable and is like 50/50 for a mid-game injury at this point? Ignoring the baffling choice to activate essentially 5 RBs, its equally baffling to activate 6 Dlineman and 8 linebackers. Special teams aside for the linebackers, there's no rotation in the world where that makes sense.

And then to couple that... its almost as if we KNEW we were going to have to make drastic defensive scheme changes when we lost a DB, because we switched to zone for quite a few snaps after Jimmy went down, and seemingly played a blend of coverages throughout after that (though I'll defer to your article from this week to break down those schemes). Of all the offenses in the league I would absolutely love to line up and play man coverage against, its the Browns, and we were totally unprepared seemingly to do so.

Maybe Averett wouldn't have fared any better than Harris or Levine did, but at least you've got some fresh rotations in there, and you can roll some safety or linebacker help that way so you don't have to play soft zone for the bulk of the game.
 
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