Lamar Jackson

[rossihunter2]

I mean OK, but its also Lamar. He's taking a lot of hits in a game because he wants to take a lot of hits in a game.
Its odd for people to take the stance of "I want our Oline to be perfect in pass protection", and then be promoting Lamar staying in the pocket longer to let plays to develop, holding the ball longer than he should, and ultimately scrambling and getting 10-15 carries a game.
The five guys blocking for him aren't the only people responsible for the hits he takes.

i think there's something to be said about the kinds of hits you take in those different scenarios
lamar doesn't take a lot of damage as a runner because he protects himself well and is control
all qbs in the pocket are much less prepared to take hits and a lot of QBs pick up injuries and niggles in the pocket after qb hits and sacks because you're not naturally in a position to protect yourself when you take the contact

every injury lamar has got that's taken him out of the game so far in his career has come as a passer so the carries part of this seems ultimately not that important

the scrambling for sure increases the chances of getting hit - but a better OL makes pressure more predictable - it's easier to identify pre-snap where it might come from and if you have trust in your tackles (because they're good) then you have reliable escape routes out of the pocket for your scrambles

it's true that sacks are as much a QB stat as a OL stat but definitely worth pointing out that there's a trend in lamar's career that the worse the OL is the more sacks he's taken so there's certainly a relationship there between the OL and lamar's sacks even if he's holding onto the ball and bringing some sacks upon himself

 

[Tank]

I miss James Hurst.

lol Not sure if you're being sarcastic but at about the $2 mil. he's getting in NO he would be more than welcomed right now.

 

[redrum52]

lol Not sure if you're being sarcastic but at about the $2 mil. he's getting in NO he would be more than welcomed right now.

I am very serious

 

[rmcjacket23]

i think there's something to be said about the kinds of hits you take in those different scenarios
lamar doesn't take a lot of damage as a runner because he protects himself well and is control
all qbs in the pocket are much less prepared to take hits and a lot of QBs pick up injuries and niggles in the pocket after qb hits and sacks because you're not naturally in a position to protect yourself when you take the contact

every injury lamar has got that's taken him out of the game so far in his career has come as a passer so the carries part of this seems ultimately not that important

the scrambling for sure increases the chances of getting hit - but a better OL makes pressure more predictable - it's easier to identify pre-snap where it might come from and if you have trust in your tackles (because they're good) then you have reliable escape routes out of the pocket for your scrambles

it's true that sacks are as much a QB stat as a OL stat but definitely worth pointing out that there's a trend in lamar's career that the worse the OL is the more sacks he's taken so there's certainly a relationship there between the OL and lamar's sacks even if he's holding onto the ball and bringing some sacks upon himself

I'm not even referencing him as a runner, although if you're going to be doing even designed runs 8-10 times a game, you're essentially operating in a close to RB territory, and I don't know any RBs that play many years in the league without missing time from injuries, of which many are directly related to him getting hit. He hasn't been injured yet from getting hit as a runner, and that's a testimony to him, but that also doesn't mean it won't ever happen or that it's not somewhat predictable that it will.

Not saying the amount of hits Lamar takes is his fault. But a QB who scrambles more, which he does, gets hit more, and a QB that holds the ball longer to wait for bigger plays to develop, which he does, gets hit more. You put a good Oline in front of him and he's not going to go from current to like the Brady-level of getting hit, which is hardly ever. You can put five All-Pro lineman in front of him and that still won't happen.

We're getting dangerously close to the Joe Flacco level analysis here, i.e. the only way we'll ever really blame anybody but Lamar is if everything around him is flawless. First 2-3 years were lack of weapons. That's an excuse that won't be available for several more years. Now we're onto the Oline, which isn't good, and needs to be upgraded. And we're already circling the drains on half the universe blaming the OC for all of it.

At some point in time, Ravens fans are finally going to wake up and realize that having a perfect Oline, with tons of weapons, and a world-class genius play caller, on top of a $40-45M QB, isn't something you're going to see with the Ravens. I'm not sure its realistic to expect it either.

And if it does happen, and we don't win, there won't be anybody left to blame. Part of the reason I love having Lamar is that I don't feel like I did perfection around him to succeed. I don't think I need Andy Reid. I don't think I need five All-Pros up front, and I don't think I need the Tampa receiving core.

If I need that, why do I need Lamar? We need improvements, not elite everywhere around him.

 

[rossihunter2]

I'm not even referencing him as a runner, although if you're going to be doing even designed runs 8-10 times a game, you're essentially operating in a close to RB territory, and I don't know any RBs that play many years in the league without missing time from injuries, of which many are directly related to him getting hit. He hasn't been injured yet from getting hit as a runner, and that's a testimony to him, but that also doesn't mean it won't ever happen or that it's not somewhat predictable that it will.

Not saying the amount of hits Lamar takes is his fault. But a QB who scrambles more, which he does, gets hit more, and a QB that holds the ball longer to wait for bigger plays to develop, which he does, gets hit more. You put a good Oline in front of him and he's not going to go from current to like the Brady-level of getting hit, which is hardly ever. You can put five All-Pro lineman in front of him and that still won't happen.

We're getting dangerously close to the Joe Flacco level analysis here, i.e. the only way we'll ever really blame anybody but Lamar is if everything around him is flawless. First 2-3 years were lack of weapons. That's an excuse that won't be available for several more years. Now we're onto the Oline, which isn't good, and needs to be upgraded. And we're already circling the drains on half the universe blaming the OC for all of it.

At some point in time, Ravens fans are finally going to wake up and realize that having a perfect Oline, with tons of weapons, and a world-class genius play caller, on top of a $40-45M QB, isn't something you're going to see with the Ravens. I'm not sure its realistic to expect it either.

And if it does happen, and we don't win, there won't be anybody left to blame. Part of the reason I love having Lamar is that I don't feel like I did perfection around him to succeed. I don't think I need Andy Reid. I don't think I need five All-Pros up front, and I don't think I need the Tampa receiving core.

If I need that, why do I need Lamar? We need improvements, not elite everywhere around him.

not asking for elite everywhere but he didn't take a lot of sacks or hits in 2019 because he was able to sit in an armchair back there - im not suggesting we have to have 2 all-pros, a pro bowler and 2 solid starters like we had on that 2019 OL... but I am suggesting that there's a direct correlation between better OL play and fewer hits

part of Ronnie Stanley's added value in 2019 was that he was awesome creating extra time and protection in the scramble drill - he has the athleticism, technique and feel for how Lamar was moving in the pocket and was able to adjust to give him extra time

i do think so much of our OL trouble is fixed if Ronnie comes back even at 70-80% of what he was in 2019 - especially if we can find a RT who's solid and reliable (that could be juwuan james, mekari or someone new)

 

[RavensMania]

At this point I’ve moved on to how we pay Lamar and fill other team needs(OL,DL,CB,LB, RB). Also, what happens if some of our key guys on IR suffer a set back? Will our RBs still be explosive post recovery? We’re going to need some contingency plans that should start in feee agency. I’m really curious how the Ravens will structure Lamar’s future cap hits.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We need to structure his contract as level as possible. Will the cap hit increase next year to make it move flat over the length of the contract. I think we should and believe that is how EDC will structure it.

 

[RavensMania]

Draft, draft and more draft. Mostly only one way to build a roster when you have a QB taking up a large chunk of the cap.

Veteran free agent signings at relatively cheap prices, and hitting on a lot of draft picks.

Agree and it's a big reason why EDC said he wanted 20 draft picks over the next two years.

 

[RavensMania]

Exactly. Which is why I have so much disagreement with those who are fine with not trying to improve this line. It's not good enough. You want our QB beaten apart, who by the way we're gonna end up paying a ton of money to? Want him busted up like Cam Newton? Then keep saying you don't think this line needs vast improvement, because that's what you're gonna end up getting

I don't think anyone on these boards is saying we shouldn't improve the line.

 

[purplepittabread88]

I don't think anyone on these boards is saying we shouldn't improve the line.

So is OBJ returning or what..

 

[RavensMania]

if anything, a side benefit of drafting another tackle means that we never have to see or use phillips at tackle again

if he's the emergency tackle with our injury luck the last 2 years, we'll never see him play guard and i really would like to because i think he's by far the best LG on this team

what makes you think he's the best LG on this team? Just a question as he only played a part of a game at LG vs the Raiders outside of having some time at LG during the preseason.

 

[RavensMania]

I mean OK, but its also Lamar. He's taking a lot of hits in a game because he wants to take a lot of hits in a game.
Its odd for people to take the stance of "I want our Oline to be perfect in pass protection", and then be promoting Lamar staying in the pocket longer to let plays to develop, holding the ball longer than he should, and ultimately scrambling and getting 10-15 carries a game.
The five guys blocking for him aren't the only people responsible for the hits he takes.

No one is saying we need to be perfect in pass protection, just better and I've agreed with almost everything you have said, btw. You're just overselling it here when you say people want it perfect.

With your previous post, totally agree no one would be complaining about the oline if we went into the season with Stanley / Powers / Bozeman / Zeitler / Mekari. We wouldn't be perfect but we would absolutely be competent. However the depth would absolutely need to be better because injuries are absolutely inevitable.

 

[BoredMarine13]

right but it's really rare that a player like orlando becomes available in the way that he was this offseason - those were pretty unique circumstances

so the primary means of investing in protection is to spend draft picks or to pay guys in free agency - and as rmcjacket said... those guys aren't available in free agency very often either (certainly not at a price we can afford)

so we're going to have to do it in the draft

I get it but if we’re being realistic you hope to get one , maybe two starters out of a given draft. If it’s worst case scenario and Stanley still can’t go, i just don’t think the draft will be enough to address the issue. But I don’t really have another viable option other than throw truck loads of money at Free agents which 1. we can’t afford 2. It often doesn’t work , looking at you Cleveland


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rossihunter2]

We need to structure his contract as level as possible. Will the cap hit increase next year to make it move flat over the length of the contract. I think we should and believe that is how EDC will structure it.

i dont think it'll be completely flat but certainly shouldnt (and likely wont) be significantly backloaded

 

[RavensMania]

i dont think it'll be completely flat but certainly shouldnt (and likely wont) be significantly backloaded

I don't think it will be completely flat as well but nothing like the original Flacco deal. I think the initial year will be around what it is now (23m) or a bit higher, but the remainder of the years will be similar but not exactly flat. More like how he has structured Humphrey and Stanley. Not completely flat but something that doesn't kill you on the backend and force you to restructure the deal ie Flacco.

 

[rossihunter2]

what makes you think he's the best LG on this team? Just a question as he only played a part of a game at LG vs the Raiders outside of having some time at LG during the preseason.

genuinely the way he played in that first game despite playing next to stanley on 1 leg
just think the level of play we saw from him through preseason and that 1 partial start was the highest level LG play ive seen all season - looked really comfortable in pass pro, his footwork looks massively better at guard vs tackle and his length is much more helpful in the smaller spaces - think he's more laterally mobile than cleveland and phillips is one of the few guys who's shown me that they can actually move a guy off the line with their power and technique

you'd think cleveland would be good at that but ironically in preseason and when rotating snaps at LG he was much better in pass pro than he was as a run blocker - powers was basically the opposite...

think phillips is a better pass protector than cleveland and a similar level run blocker to powers (but they do it in different ways and styles)

 

[rossihunter2]

I get it but if we’re being realistic you hope to get one , maybe two starters out of a given draft. If it’s worst case scenario and Stanley still can’t go, i just don’t think the draft will be enough to address the issue. But I don’t really have another viable option other than throw truck loads of money at Free agents which 1. we can’t afford 2. It often doesn’t work , looking at you Cleveland


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

if stanley can't go - you just have to hope you find out before the draft and you just have to make sure you take one (or three lol) - you aren't finding one anywhere else

and while you hope to get 2-3 starters in a draft minimum, the higher your pick, the better chance they have to pan out - the more you pick at a position, the more likely it is you get someone decent there too

just dont think it's feasible that anyone worthwhile will be available in free agency or that we'll have the cap to be able to compete with the more needy teams if they are

in terms of LTs who may hit free agency in 2022 you're maybe looking at Cam Robinson, Eric Fisher or Charles Leno Jr types at best (and that's before you even start worrying about how much they'll be overpaid)

 

[BoredMarine13]

We need to structure his contract as level as possible. Will the cap hit increase next year to make it move flat over the length of the contract. I think we should and believe that is how EDC will structure it.

Yes , gotta keep those cap hits under control. I don’t want to restructure in three years and push the issue down the road


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[rmcjacket23]

if stanley can't go - you just have to hope you find out before the draft and you just have to make sure you take one (or three lol) - you aren't finding one anywhere else

and while you hope to get 2-3 starters in a draft minimum, the higher your pick, the better chance they have to pan out - the more you pick at a position, the more likely it is you get someone decent there too

just dont think it's feasible that anyone worthwhile will be available in free agency or that we'll have the cap to be able to compete with the more needy teams if they are

in terms of LTs who may hit free agency in 2022 you're maybe looking at Cam Robinson, Eric Fisher or Charles Leno Jr types at best (and that's before you even start worrying about how much they'll be overpaid)

I just don't see any way they'll know if Stanley can come back before the draft. We're talking like six months after his most recent surgery. I have no clue what his recovery timeline looks like, but he may not be doing anything but conditioning at that point.

Just gotta hope you find a Tackle in the draft that could theoretically play both spots.

 

[rossihunter2]

I just don't see any way they'll know if Stanley can come back before the draft. We're talking like six months after his most recent surgery. I have no clue what his recovery timeline looks like, but he may not be doing anything but conditioning at that point.

Just gotta hope you find a Tackle in the draft that could theoretically play both spots.

I think that’s another reason why you might want to spend a high pick on a tackle because it serves multiple purposes

1) you’ve got better talent to cover for Stanley if he can’t go
2) you’ve got better competition at RT if he can go
3) you’ve got your replacement for James already in the building (if James wins that job)
4) pushes the possibility of Phillips at tackle completely out of the realms of possibility unless disaster strikes - which hopefully means he gets to focus on LG which should hopefully help that competition too

Not suggesting the ravens necessarily reach or anything but would feel like a mistake with all that uncertainty at both LT and RT to only have added a day 3 guy at tackle

We know the ravens (and other successful organisations) look at need beyond just 1 year at a time - even if they’re confident and satisfied with Stanley and James and mekari in 2022, both James and mekari are free agents in 2023

 

[Adreme]

I think that’s another reason why you might want to spend a high pick on a tackle because it serves multiple purposes

1) you’ve got better talent to cover for Stanley if he can’t go
2) you’ve got better competition at RT if he can go
3) you’ve got your replacement for James already in the building (if James wins that job)
4) pushes the possibility of Phillips at tackle completely out of the realms of possibility unless disaster strikes - which hopefully means he gets to focus on LG which should hopefully help that competition too

Not suggesting the ravens necessarily reach or anything but would feel like a mistake with all that uncertainty at both LT and RT to only have added a day 3 guy at tackle

We know the ravens (and other successful organisations) look at need beyond just 1 year at a time - even if they’re confident and satisfied with Stanley and James and mekari in 2022, both James and mekari are free agents in 2023

Except the problem is then who in the world is going to be playing DLine next year? If you are telling me the Ravens need to find 3-4 starters in the draft then that tells me it could be a long year.