Lamar Jackson

[rossihunter2]

Well, off the top of my head...
Denver, Houston, Washington, Carolina, New Orleans, Detroit, Pittsburgh. Those seven teams don't have anything even remotely resembling a franchise QB on their roster, nor do they really have the means to think they'll get one anytime soon, so those teams would have blank checkbooks open for Lamar 10 seconds after he was even vaguely discussed as being "available".

And that's just seven teams. Then there's the teams that kind of have QBs, but would gladly take the opportunity to look for upgrades if they could. That list includes Miami, Las Vegas, Cleveland, NY Giants, Philadelphia, Atlanta, and Minnesota. And I'm probably shortening this list more than I should.

That's at least 13 teams that I see that would show immediate interest.

And he's better than a lot of teams QBs that they have (like Wentz, Tannehill, etc.), it's just a question of whether those teams would go after him or could afford to do so. Then you also bring in teams like the Jets, 49ers, Bears, etc., who recently drafted young QBs, but I think would be super fine moving them for a guy like Lamar without hestitation.

Basically half the league is the floor to me.

The only teams I would say that wouldn't show interest:
New England, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Jacksonville, LA Chargers, Kansas City, Dallas, Tampa, Green Bay, Arizona, Seattle and LA Rams.

i mean idk that new england or jacksonville would turn down lamar either
mac jones's ceiling is much lower than most other potential franchise QBs and josh mcdaniels and BB were notably fans of lamar in that class and trevor lawrence hasn't shown anywhere close to enough yet that you would turn down an opportunity at lamar if he was available (especially given that he's a florida boy)
also don't think the Rams would turn down that opportunity either - Stafford's been a massive upgrade over Goff but we're now starting to see his limitations somewhat even with talent around him now

so for me it's probably only Bills, Chiefs, Chargers, Bengals, Cowboys, Cardinals, Packers, Bucs

which leaves exactly 2/3 of the NFL and I'm not sure there's a QB that would have more of the NFL after them as a hypothetical free agent other than maybe Mahomes

 

[rmcjacket23]

Players of all positions succeed and bust all the time and it often has nothing to do with which number they were drafted at, the more shots you take the more hits you’ll land, across all rounds, we just need to stop passing on guys like onwenu for guys like bredeson.

While that's generally true, interior Oline play still isn't tremendous on this team, and we've fired a LOT of shots in that position group so far in recent years.

 

[rmcjacket23]

i mean idk that new england or jacksonville would turn down lamar either
mac jones's ceiling is much lower than most other potential franchise QBs and josh mcdaniels and BB were notably fans of lamar in that class and trevor lawrence hasn't shown anywhere close to enough yet that you would turn down an opportunity at lamar if he was available (especially given that he's a florida boy)
also don't think the Rams would turn down that opportunity either - Stafford's been a massive upgrade over Goff but we're now starting to see his limitations somewhat even with talent around him now

so for me it's probably only Bills, Chiefs, Chargers, Bengals, Cowboys, Cardinals, Packers, Bucs

which leaves exactly 2/3 of the NFL and I'm not sure there's a QB that would have more of the NFL after them as a hypothetical free agent other than maybe Mahomes

I just don't think Jacksonville or NE would value Lamar at $40M compared to those two guys at like $5-10M or whatever they're playing for. Lamar is certainly better than both, but just a concept of value for those teams.

 

[rossihunter2]

At this point I’ve moved on to how we pay Lamar and fill other team needs(OL,DL,CB,LB, RB). Also, what happens if some of our key guys on IR suffer a set back? Will our RBs still be explosive post recovery? We’re going to need some contingency plans that should start in feee agency. I’m really curious how the Ravens will structure Lamar’s future cap hits.


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we've got some cap space to work with - lamar's extension isn't going to completely wipe out any cap space whatever happens because he's already slated to cost 23m against the cap anyway in 2022

most likely the majority of our cap gets spent on retaining our own free agents (including the ERFAs and RFAs) as well as any potential UFA re-signings - Bozeman being the most obvious one, but we might also want to see if Calais campbell wants to continue for 1 more year + a bunch of depth/inexpensive deals like justin ellis, chris board, eric tomlinson, lj fort

not saying we re-sign everyone but that will all eat into the cap

so it's mostly going to be about rookies - we've got 9 picks in the first 4 rounds of the draft (and 10 picks in total) which is a lot of capital to have and i expect we'll trade down at some point to acquire even more - EDC last year said that he hopes to pick around 20 players between the 2021 and 2022 drafts - 2021 was a small class and they took 8 guys

if Lamar is down for a few games, then it's probably in our best interest at this point to let this season fizzle and miss the playoffs entirely which would mean the lowest our pick could be is 18th which would be the highest we've picked since 2017 (because we traded down in the 2018 draft)

 

[rossihunter2]

Players of all positions succeed and bust all the time and it often has nothing to do with which number they were drafted at, the more shots you take the more hits you’ll land, across all rounds, we just need to stop passing on guys like onwenu for guys like bredeson.

haha - that's not even just passing - that's just a straight up mis-evaluation

although worth noting that onwenu is no longer the pats starter

 

[rmcjacket23]

I was getting some flack when I said this unit needs improvement big time. Was told that we probably wouldn't touch line until mid rounds at best and that we already have the majority of the pieces in place. I ain't in the business of calling people out, but it happened.

What's changed since the last time it was discussed? I would expect Oline to get the most votes... what other position group looks worse?
The difference is that every time people like me ask very simple questions, such as "who are you replacing", I hear crickets.

It's a pretty straight forward breakdown if you ask me...
Stand up and say if you think Zeitler sucks and should be replaced? I haven't heard anybody say this yet.
Stand up and say if you think Bozeman sucks and should be replaced? I haven't heard anybody say this yet.
Stand up and say if you think Stanley, assuming he is healthy, isn't the absolute best possible LT we're going to find anywhere? I haven't heard anybody say this yet.

I just covered 60% of the Oline, and not a single person on here or who voted on any poll has suggested to replace any of those three guys. Not one.

That leaves RT and LG. Everybody and their mother has stated Tackle is a need. Its redundant to keep talking about it. I've heard numerous opinions on Guard, but myself and others are the one's consistently pointing out that adding another Guard means you've now drafted basically four Guards in four years, and only one of them is starting. My opinion is it's not exactly wise to be throwing in the towel on a large group of draft picks after 2-3 years, when some of them, like Powers, have shown you they can at least be serviceable. I'm not even unconvinced Phillips couldn't be a mauler at LG, but he's basically never played there.

Just showing we need to improve the Oline is kind of lazy to me. Like duh. If it were as simple as that, lets just cut all of them, eat tons of dead money, and start over. Damn the defensive line, where literally all of them are free agents, and damn a pass rush group that still needs work.

 

[rossihunter2]

I just don't think Jacksonville or NE would value Lamar at $40M compared to those two guys at like $5-10M or whatever they're playing for. Lamar is certainly better than both, but just a concept of value for those teams.

i get that - but it's not like either has played like burrow or herbert did last year where it was clear those guys were on their way to the upper echelons of NFL QBs

that's not evident so far from lawrence and mac - they've shown signs that they might develop, but nothing yet that would stop those teams from wanting to upgrade even if it was for a massive hike in salary invested at the position

and if neither of those teams are in on Lamar in this hypothetical then im not sure why the bears would be either

 

[rossihunter2]

I'm not even unconvinced Phillips couldn't be a mauler at LG, but he's basically never played there.

if anything, a side benefit of drafting another tackle means that we never have to see or use phillips at tackle again

if he's the emergency tackle with our injury luck the last 2 years, we'll never see him play guard and i really would like to because i think he's by far the best LG on this team

 

[rmcjacket23]

i get that - but it's not like either has played like burrow or herbert did last year where it was clear those guys were on their way to the upper echelons of NFL QBs

that's not evident so far from lawrence and mac - they've shown signs that they might develop, but nothing yet that would stop those teams from wanting to upgrade even if it was for a massive hike in salary invested at the position

and if neither of those teams are in on Lamar in this hypothetical then im not sure why the bears would be either

I mostly through the Bears in there due to, what I think, would be a HC change and possibly even a GM change, meaning they'll be bringing in fresh faces who didn't draft Fields.

Now same could be said for Jacksonville, but I think most teams would have evaluated Lawrence much higher than Fields as a prospect, and so having Lawrence would be more appealing to them.

But yes, I'm being quite conservative with my list of teams. It was mostly just to point out that it's like 60-70% of the league with very little thought.

 

[rmcjacket23]

if anything, a side benefit of drafting another tackle means that we never have to see or use phillips at tackle again

if he's the emergency tackle with our injury luck the last 2 years, we'll never see him play guard and i really would like to because i think he's by far the best LG on this team

I would hope the Phillips at Tackle experiment is over. You bring back James, you bring back Mekari, you draft somebody. If we're 4 deep at Tackle and Phillips has to play, so be it.

Getting a Tackle or even two is going to happen. Everybody knows it. The offseason for the offense will largely be shaped by what happens with Bozeman and Stanley. That's all its ever been about. Bozeman you'll know early, Stanley you may never know until it's too late.

You give me a healthy Stanley back, you give me Bozeman back, and you give me another Tackle or two. You start Stanley, fucking anybody at LG, Bozeman, Zeitler, and whoever wins the Tackle competition. I'm 100% fine with that Oline. Added basically one body the whole offseason, and just brought back some injured people.

Not sure what people don't get about this.

 

[ndub]

What's changed since the last time it was discussed? I would expect Oline to get the most votes... what other position group looks worse?
The difference is that every time people like me ask very simple questions, such as "who are you replacing", I hear crickets.

It's a pretty straight forward breakdown if you ask me...
Stand up and say if you think Zeitler sucks and should be replaced? I haven't heard anybody say this yet.
Stand up and say if you think Bozeman sucks and should be replaced? I haven't heard anybody say this yet.
Stand up and say if you think Stanley, assuming he is healthy, isn't the absolute best possible LT we're going to find anywhere? I haven't heard anybody say this yet.

I just covered 60% of the Oline, and not a single person on here or who voted on any poll has suggested to replace any of those three guys. Not one.

That leaves RT and LG. Everybody and their mother has stated Tackle is a need. Its redundant to keep talking about it. I've heard numerous opinions on Guard, but myself and others are the one's consistently pointing out that adding another Guard means you've now drafted basically four Guards in four years, and only one of them is starting. My opinion is it's not exactly wise to be throwing in the towel on a large group of draft picks after 2-3 years, when some of them, like Powers, have shown you they can at least be serviceable. I'm not even unconvinced Phillips couldn't be a mauler at LG, but he's basically never played there.

Just showing we need to improve the Oline is kind of lazy to me. Like duh. If it were as simple as that, lets just cut all of them, eat tons of dead money, and start over. Damn the defensive line, where literally all of them are free agents, and damn a pass rush group that still needs work.

And damn the entire team if a shaky OL gets Lamar hurt because they couldn't stop a team from continuously pressuring the offense over and over again.

 

[rossihunter2]

I would hope the Phillips at Tackle experiment is over. You bring back James, you bring back Mekari, you draft somebody. If we're 4 deep at Tackle and Phillips has to play, so be it.

Getting a Tackle or even two is going to happen. Everybody knows it. The offseason for the offense will largely be shaped by what happens with Bozeman and Stanley. That's all its ever been about. Bozeman you'll know early, Stanley you may never know until it's too late.

You give me a healthy Stanley back, you give me Bozeman back, and you give me another Tackle or two. You start Stanley, fucking anybody at LG, Bozeman, Zeitler, and whoever wins the Tackle competition. I'm 100% fine with that Oline. Added basically one body the whole offseason, and just brought back some injured people.

Not sure what people don't get about this.

i hope so for sure - i wouldnt be surprised if we double-dipped at OT though to increase our chances of actually finding someone who'll stick... we've done that successfully before (and more often than you'd think the 2nd guy sticks and the 1st guy doesn't) and if there's a major talent at IOL that's too good to pass up we're not going to shy away from making that pick - but I would be surprised if we added an IOL from day 3 because what would be the point when we've got Zeitler, Phillips, Powers, Cleveland, Colon, Mekari on the roster already

 

[QuothTheRaven]

i mean idk that new england or jacksonville would turn down lamar either
mac jones's ceiling is much lower than most other potential franchise QBs and josh mcdaniels and BB were notably fans of lamar in that class and trevor lawrence hasn't shown anywhere close to enough yet that you would turn down an opportunity at lamar if he was available (especially given that he's a florida boy)
also don't think the Rams would turn down that opportunity either - Stafford's been a massive upgrade over Goff but we're now starting to see his limitations somewhat even with talent around him now

so for me it's probably only Bills, Chiefs, Chargers, Bengals, Cowboys, Cardinals, Packers, Bucs

which leaves exactly 2/3 of the NFL and I'm not sure there's a QB that would have more of the NFL after them as a hypothetical free agent other than maybe Mahomes

The Packers would absolutely take him to fuck with Rodgers. They hate that guy.

 

[BoredMarine13]

Well, the kinds of players generally available in FA, especially at Tackle, are the Villaneuva-type players. If there were good Tackles available, they either get traded, like Orlando Brown, or teams pay them, because they're so hard to find.

DeCosta is so good at coming out on top of these trades. Perhaps he may have to give up a little more capital than he prefers to protect the investment in Lamar


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[redrum52]

I miss James Hurst.

 

[rmcjacket23]

And damn the entire team if a shaky OL gets Lamar hurt because they couldn't stop a team from continuously pressuring the offense over and over again.

Well a great Oline isn't going to stop a team from getting pressure every week. A QB getting hurt is just an inevitable part of football to begin with. There isn't anything to prevent it.

 

[ndub]

Well a great Oline isn't going to stop a team from getting pressure every week. A QB getting hurt is just an inevitable part of football to begin with. There isn't anything to prevent it.

No but the chances of it occurring goes down as the number of hits the QB takes go down

 

[rossihunter2]

DeCosta is so good at coming out on top of these trades. Perhaps he may have to give up a little more capital than he prefers to protect the investment in Lamar


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right but it's really rare that a player like orlando becomes available in the way that he was this offseason - those were pretty unique circumstances

so the primary means of investing in protection is to spend draft picks or to pay guys in free agency - and as rmcjacket said... those guys aren't available in free agency very often either (certainly not at a price we can afford)

so we're going to have to do it in the draft

 

[rmcjacket23]

DeCosta is so good at coming out on top of these trades. Perhaps he may have to give up a little more capital than he prefers to protect the investment in Lamar


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Well, candidly, I look around the league, and I don't see where that would happen. The Ravens were one of the few teams who had two elite Tackles at the same time, and one had already made it known they wanted to be a LT and weren't going to re-sign anyway, hence the trade.

The type of trade you're talking about would likely only occur if Stanley is done and they need a LT, not for a RT. Upgrading RT can be achieved with not even super high draft picks. The last several quality RTs we've had (Brown and Wagner) came from that mold.

I certainly don't think using multiple quality draft picks to acquire a RT, and whatever large contract is likely associated with it, is a good use of cap or salary resources. If there's one thing this season should have taught us, its that just getting a quality starter isn't super meaningful when that guy isn't playing.

The objective is to not only improve starters, but to improve depth.

If we had 13 games with Stanley/Powers/Bozeman/Zeitler/Mekari in our pocket, we wouldn't be talking much about the Oline. I didn't even add anybody off the street to do that. The problem was we went into the season with poor depth at Tackle and not much in the way of a starter on the right side.

 

[rmcjacket23]

No but the chances of it occurring goes down as the number of hits the QB takes go down

I mean OK, but its also Lamar. He's taking a lot of hits in a game because he wants to take a lot of hits in a game.
Its odd for people to take the stance of "I want our Oline to be perfect in pass protection", and then be promoting Lamar staying in the pocket longer to let plays to develop, holding the ball longer than he should, and ultimately scrambling and getting 10-15 carries a game.
The five guys blocking for him aren't the only people responsible for the hits he takes.