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Lamar Jackson

Marino at least played in a Super Bowl and was considered the best. Rivers isn’t considered even top 5 right now or at any point in his career.

Plenty of qbs make it eventually or came out of weak draft classes or eras with far less competent quarterback play. Rivers might make It eventually in a weak HOF class but doubtful it’s going to be easy at this point.
 
Marino also won league awards and that comes into play too. Having no real playoff success and no accolades other than good stats isn’t in any world a straight path to Canton. It’s just not.
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
I’d say maybe Browns and Bills are a stretch but in unreaskmable to include. But it’s also hard to compare because of how the league has developed and shifted heavy towards passing. It’s harder to discern great from good and good from average. But I don’t think the number of teams who are settled or optimistic to a degree at quarterback is drastically different from years past
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ok but the whole point of this was that you said it's difficult to find competent qb play and my whole argument is that it is easier than it has ever been to find competent qb play as demonstrated by the number of teams not looking outside for qb solutions (i.e. they are happy with their inhouse capabilities for qb play)
 
It’s not easier than ever, the number of teams who have competent qb play at the moment is similar to 2010-2011. But let me clarify my point - sure, it IS NOT difficult to find a quarterback to play decent and win some games or even to put up stats. But the amount of quarterbacks who effectively help their team win past the regular season and into The postseason is much smaller. Joe has shown the ability to elevate his play and his team to that upper level of play needed to win 3-6 games to get into the playoffs and win in the playoffs and win the big game. Find qbs with that capacity vs finding qbs who just are good but lack the tools to win at the next level. This is why Flacco is a weird case - we have seen him play at a high level but he can’t sustain it for an entire season, very few quarterbacks can and do it in the playoffs when it matters most. The difference with Flacco is that we DON’T KNOW to the exact extent his inconsistency is a product of his own failures vs the team, coaching etc. He’s the most poorly treated franchise qb outside of Andrew Luck (maybe Bradford had worse treatment if considered him to have potential at one point)
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
It’s not easier than ever, the number of teams who have competent qb play at the moment is similar to 2010-2011. But let me clarify my point - sure, it IS NOT difficult to find a quarterback to play decent and win some games or even to put up stats. But the amount of quarterbacks who effectively help their team win past the regular season and into The postseason is much smaller. Joe has shown the ability to elevate his play and his team to that upper level of play needed to win 3-6 games to get into the playoffs and win in the playoffs and win the big game. Find qbs with that capacity vs finding qbs who just are good but lack the tools to win at the next level. This is why Flacco is a weird case - we have seen him play at a high level but he can’t sustain it for an entire season, very few quarterbacks can and do it in the playoffs when it matters most. The difference with Flacco is that we DON’T KNOW to the exact extent his inconsistency is a product of his own failures vs the team, coaching etc. He’s the most poorly treated franchise qb outside of Andrew Luck (maybe Bradford had worse treatment if considered him to have potential at one point)
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Yeah but there's no guarantee that Flacco can still elevate his play come playoffs. If Joe hadn't those mid-season (october) slumps we wouldn't need those 3-6 game win streakes. But why do you exactly think that it isn't easier now to find a qb
 
No there’s no guarantee but he did elevate his play in 2014, the defense was just too decimated.

Why do I say it isn’t easy? Because even if all
Overall talent was going up, there’s still a hierarchy of talent and players and there will be those at the top who win and those in the middle and those at the bottom. The amount of teams with competent qbs is basically the same as it has been for the past decade and a half when the passing era of football really hit a new level.
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
It’s not easier than ever, the number of teams who have competent qb play at the moment is similar to 2010-2011. But let me clarify my point - sure, it IS NOT difficult to find a quarterback to play decent and win some games or even to put up stats. But the amount of quarterbacks who effectively help their team win past the regular season and into The postseason is much smaller. Joe has shown the ability to elevate his play and his team to that upper level of play needed to win 3-6 games to get into the playoffs and win in the playoffs and win the big game. Find qbs with that capacity vs finding qbs who just are good but lack the tools to win at the next level. This is why Flacco is a weird case - we have seen him play at a high level but he can’t sustain it for an entire season, very few quarterbacks can and do it in the playoffs when it matters most. The difference with Flacco is that we DON’T KNOW to the exact extent his inconsistency is a product of his own failures vs the team, coaching etc. He’s the most poorly treated franchise qb outside of Andrew Luck (maybe Bradford had worse treatment if considered him to have potential at one point)
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the last time joe elevated his game was 4 years ago...
and in the regular season he's consistently been outside the top 20 qbs in the league in a given year since 2014 also - you dont get to the postseason if your qb isnt playing well enough

at this point though i think we can safely say that its clear that flacco's inconsistency is embedded in himself and not the coaching staff - we've had the same flacco across multiple coordinators with various different tools - he's been the same the whole time

and it really isnt similar in terms of qb play to 2010/2011 - it's not even close
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
No there’s no guarantee but he did elevate his play in 2014, the defense was just too decimated.

Why do I say it isn’t easy? Because even if all
Overall talent was going up, there’s still a hierarchy of talent and players and there will be those at the top who win and those in the middle and those at the bottom. The amount of teams with competent qbs is basically the same as it has been for the past decade and a half when the passing era of football really hit a new level.
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but its not - there have never been this many franchise qbs or potential franchise qbs
even the ability level of backup qbs is way higher
 
rossihunter2 said:
the last time joe elevated his game was 4 years ago...
and in the regular season he's consistently been outside the top 20 qbs in the league in a given year since 2014 also - you dont get to the postseason if your qb isnt playing well enough

at this point though i think we can safely say that its clear that flacco's inconsistency is embedded in himself and not the coaching staff - we've had the same flacco across multiple coordinators with various different tools - he's been the same the whole time

and it really isnt similar in terms of qb play to 2010/2011 - it's not even close
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No it isn’t safe to say, we’ve had one good coordinator for one year that we did really well, One for a couple years who everyone recognized was
Trash and Marty doesn’t seem to play to the strength of personnel and Joe, but loves Mobile qbs. This is the first year since 2014 that the weapons have been decent and the running game disappeared. Just stop it. You’re completely ignoring reality and circumstances because you’re impatient and fed up with the failures of the team and I sympathize but Joe is the LEAST of our problems.
 
rossihunter2 said:
but its not - there have never been this many franchise qbs or potential franchise qbs
even the ability level of backup qbs is way higher
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Like I said it’s really not better because it’s all RELATIVE. Even if all quarterback play is going up and is more available that just means the bad and middle tier qbs will look better than they used to in years past. And while a lot of teams have quarterbacks it’s nkt much more than years past and we don’t know for sure if all of these quarterbacks will work out long term either or if some will regress.
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
You’re still like most fans of the Ravens and football in general completely ignoring what effect the system, team culture and coaching has on Joe and his overall play. I have game pass. I watch coaches film. We consistently put Joe in shitty offenses where receivers don’t get open as much as other teams offenses do. This year has been actually better but we’ve lost our running game and had some really bad drops. I watch other teams and see their OCs scheme receivers open 2-3 times a drive and I don’t really see us do that. I’m not saying Joe would be Tom Brady or Drew Brees but in either of those systems he’d look more like Ben and Rivers in terms of play and production.
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Several of us watch coaches film as well. No question it isn’t just Joe, but you can’t blame the coaches all the time and in many circumstances it is totally his fault and he will, as he should, shoulder the blame. Watch a little of @Edgar tape on Flacco vs. the Steelers. It may be a small segment, but Joe hasn’t been good in a while. You can blame health and coaching all you want and you are entitled to do so as it is your opinion, but others have different opinions.
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
No it isn’t safe to say, we’ve had one good coordinator for one year that we did really well, One for a couple years who everyone recognized was
Trash and Marty doesn’t seem to play to the strength of personnel and Joe, but loves Mobile qbs. This is the first year since 2014 that the weapons have been decent and the running game disappeared. Just stop it. You’re completely ignoring reality and circumstances because you’re impatient and fed up with the failures of the team and I sympathize but Joe is the LEAST of our problems.
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Open your eyes. Joe and the coach are the only constants throughout the years of subpar quarterback play.
In reality, he's been shit more than average over the last 3 years.
 
RavensMania said:
Several of us watch coaches film as well. No question it isn’t just Joe, but you can’t blame the coaches all the time and in many circumstances it is totally his fault and he will as he should shoulder the blame. Watch a little of Edgar’s tape on Flacco vs. the Steelers. It may be a small segment, but Joe hasn’t been good in a while. You can blame health and coaching all you want and you are entitled to do so as it is your opinion, but others have different opinions.
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Joe didn’t play the best vs the Steelers, but of course he was hurt and fuck on the first drive the piss poor like let him get hit like 4 plays in a row. I’m not saying the guy is infallible, but quarterbacks can for the most part only play as well as the players and coaching around them. Even Rodgers as good as he is can’t will his team to win. Joe has a lot going for him, if you want to scrap him fine, whatever but here’s what I’m saying : DONT tell me Joe sucks and give the coaching and FO a pass and make Joe the scapegoat. No one is explicitly doing that but at the same time everyone is basically saying yeah , the team didn’t help Joe enough but rather than demand the team actually build a good team around the quarterback, just throw him overboard. Joe has earned more respect than that.
 
rossihunter2 said:
he's more of a HOF candidate than Eli...
he's a brilliant player
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I agree, but the HOF committee will look at the SBs and possible see two for Eli and zero for Rivers, even though the Giants were wild cards in both of those years and got pretty damn lucky to win this SBs, especially the first one.

If Eli goes in, it’s going to be a long time, but they will have to seriously consider Rivers, because for the most part he had a bad team.
 
allblackraven said:
Open your eyes. Joe and the coach are the only constants throughout the years of subpar quarterback play.
In reality, he's been shit more than average over the last 3 years.
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No , the other constants have been TERRIBLE offensive coaching, subpar receivers shitty offensive line and investing little to nothing into the offense year in and year out.
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
Joe didn’t play the best vs the Steelers, but of course he was hurt and fuck on the first drive the piss poor like let him get hit like 4 plays in a row. I’m not saying the guy is infallible, but quarterbacks can for the most part only play as well as the players and coaching around them. Even Rodgers as good as he is can’t will his team to win. Joe has a lot going for him, if you want to scrap him fine, whatever but here’s what I’m saying : DONT tell me Joe sucks and give the coaching and FO a pass and make Joe the scapegoat. No one is explicitly doing that but at the same time everyone is basically saying yeah , the team didn’t help Joe enough but rather than demand the team actually build a good team around the quarterback, just throw him overboard. Joe has earned more respect than that.
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Rodgers willed his team to win in game one this season. I know you aren’t comparing QBs, but a great qb makes the players around him better and Joe absolutely doesn’t do that. None of us ever said Joe sucks. Absolutely coaching and FO deserves part of the blame. Many of us are ready for a change though, including Harbaugh.

Not to derail this thread, but I’m a Harbaugh fan, but I also feel the need for change. Sometimes you need to derail the team to get going again and that includes your qb and head coach as well changing other players as well.
 
RavensMania said:
Rodgers willed his team to win in game one this season. I know you aren’t comparing QBs, but a great qb makes the players around him better and Joe absolutely doesn’t do that. None of us ever said Joe sucks. Absolutely coaching and FO deserves part of the blame. Many of us are ready for a change though, including Harbaugh.

Not to derail this thread, but I’m a Harbaugh fan, but I also feel the need for change. Sometimes you need to derail the team to get going again and that includes your qb and head coach as well changing other players as well.
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I agree, Joe isn’t great - I had him ranked like 10-12. But he’s not someone I would choose to casually throw out - especially for Lamar Jackson’s stupid Navy/Army offense we ran Sunday. We draft Patrick Mahomes then yeah, different story.
 
3-4ravdef509 said:
I agree, Joe isn’t great - I had him ranked like 10-12. But he’s not someone I would choose to casually throw out - especially for Lamar Jackson’s stupid Navy/Army offense we ran Sunday. We draft Patrick Mahomes then yeah, different story.
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10-12, who do you have better than Joe. Not many liked the game plan, but Marty needs to go
 
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