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Lamar Jackson

3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
You’re still like most fans of the Ravens and football in general completely ignoring what effect the system, team culture and coaching has on Joe and his overall play. I have game pass. I watch coaches film. We consistently put Joe in shitty offenses where receivers don’t get open as much as other teams offenses do. This year has been actually better but we’ve lost our running game and had some really bad drops. I watch other teams and see their OCs scheme receivers open 2-3 times a drive and I don’t really see us do that. I’m not saying Joe would be Tom Brady or Drew Brees but in either of those systems he’d look more like Ben and Rivers in terms of play and production.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
3-4ravdef509 said:
And I don’t think anyone here is really taking fully into account scheme, health, coaching and just honestly accounting for how hard it is to find competent quarterback play. We compare Joe to All Time Greats which is just not a fair comparison.
Click to expand...

it's not that hard to find competent qb play anymore - a couple of years ago it was difficult and there were maybe only 15 good qbs in the league

a list of teams that either have competent qb play or have just drafted a qb high to solve that problem:

Bills
Jets
Patriots
Cowboys
Eagles
Redskins
Ravens
Bengals
Steelers
Browns
Bears
Lions
Vikings
Packers
Texans
Colts
Falcons
Panthers
Saints
Chiefs
Chargers
Cardinals
Rams
49ers
Seahawks

a list of teams that might have to find a new qb or they might not:

Dolphins
Titans
Raiders

a list of teams that need to change qbs without a shadow of a doubt:

Giants
Jags
Bucs
Broncos

so that's 7 teams that might need to change and 4 that absolutely do

within those 7 teams there is some ok qb play and some guys who might be tried in different spots - jameis winston, marcus mariota, ryan tannehill... and on top of that you might have other qb potential solutions emerge from the teams with qbs like Joe Flacco, Teddy Bridgewater, Jacoby Brissett

that's 25 teams though who arent looking for better qb play out of house - it's really not hard to find competent qb play now that college qbs are coming into places with schemes and coaches willing to tailor to their incoming qb
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
I actually agree on Rivers. Although he’s never seemed to step it up in the clutch or playoff games. Aside from that concern I’d take him over Joe. I think Rivers and Ben are better than Joe although I think Joe up until recently was more reliable in terms of health. But the drop off in talent and Football IQ from those two to Joe isn’t as much as you suggest it to be.
 
allblackraven

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
Some people are acting like we're about to move on from Montana.

Good QBs don't grow on trees but replacing average at best guy isn't rocket science.
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
rossihunter2 said:
it's not that hard to find competent qb play anymore - a couple of years ago it was difficult and there were maybe only 15 good qbs in the league

a list of teams that either have competent qb play or have just drafted a qb high to solve that problem:

Bills
Jets
Patriots
Cowboys
Eagles
Redskins
Ravens
Bengals
Steelers
Browns
Bears
Lions
Vikings
Packers
Texans
Colts
Falcons
Panthers
Saints
Chiefs
Chargers
Cardinals
Rams
49ers
Seahawks

a list of teams that might have to find a new qb or they might not:

Dolphins
Titans
Raiders

a list of teams that need to change qbs without a shadow of a doubt:

Giants
Jags
Bucs
Broncos

so that's 7 teams that might need to change and 4 that absolutely do

within those 7 teams there is some ok qb play and some guys who might be tried in different spots - jameis winston, marcus mariota, ryan tannehill... and on top of that you might have other qb potential solutions emerge from the teams with qbs like Joe Flacco, Teddy Bridgewater, Jacoby Brissett

that's 25 teams though who arent looking for better qb play out of house - it's really not hard to find competent qb play now that college qbs are coming into places with schemes and coaches willing to tailor to their incoming qb
Click to expand...

Strongly disagree. There’s always been 15-20 teams in average with either franchise qbs or qbs that they drafted high and were riding to see what they had. Passing overall is just exploding and making all an production and play inflate and look better.

What matters most though isn’t production and just winning some games but winning championships and there’s still Just a handful of qbs who’ve shown they can deliver that. Stanford and Rivers for example are great in terms of production but terrible in terms of actually long term helping their team rise
To the top.
 
redrum52

redrum52

Hall of Famer
allblackraven said:
Some people are acting like we're about to move on from Montana.

Good QBs don't grow on trees but replacing average at best guy isn't rocket science.
Click to expand...

This... besides the poor play to cap ratio it's time to move on. People act like Joe's the only one we want gone. Fuck Harbaugh, too! Jimmy is one of my favorite Ravens and he can kick rocks as well. I'm ready to push the button on DeCosta if the draft and FA philosophy doesn't change either. It's weird that the only PERSON people get defensive about here is Joe. If there was ever time for a change/restart, whatever the hell you want to call it, it's now. Dump the cap and let the "restructure" begin. Show Mosley the door as well. It's been real.
 
redrum52

redrum52

Hall of Famer
3-4ravdef509 said:
Strongly disagree. There’s always been 15-20 teams in average with either franchise qbs or qbs that they drafted high and were riding to see what they had. Passing overall is just exploding and making all an production and play inflate and look better.

What matters most though isn’t production and just winning some games but winning championships and there’s still Just a handful of qbs who’ve shown they can deliver that. Stanford and Rivers for example are great in terms of production but terrible in terms of actually long term helping their team rise
To the top.
Click to expand...

Why aren't we seeing our guys numbers inflate then?

You then continue to speak on STAFFORD and Rivers who's FOs you can also say have failed them. The Chargers have been right there with us in IR candidates and Stafford has never had a running game. The Lions have also rarely featured a reliable defense. With either of those QB's I could probably make a valid case for use making playoffs at least half of the times the past 6 years.
 
allblackraven

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
redrum52 said:
This... besides the poor play to cap ratio it's time to move on. People act like Joe's the only one we want gone. Fuck Harbaugh, too! Jimmy is one of my favorite Ravens and he can kick rocks as well. I'm ready to push the button on DeCosta if the draft and FA philosophy doesn't change either. It's weird that the only PERSON people get defensive about here is Joe. If there was ever time for a change/restart, whatever the hell you want to call it, it's now. Dump the cap and let the "restructure" begin. Show Mosley the door as well. It's been real.
Click to expand...
That's probably what we need to break off from suffocation by mediocrity but you know it's not going to happen this way - Bisciotti's mantra is continuity.
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
redrum52 said:
Why aren't we seeing our guys numbers inflate then?

You then continue to speak on STAFFORD and Rivers who's FOs you can also say have failed them. The Chargers have been right there with us in IR candidates and Stafford has never had a running game. The Lions have also rarely featured a reliable defense. With either of those QB's I could probably make a valid case for use making playoffs at least half of the times the past 6 years.
Click to expand...

We’re one of the only assymetrical teams in the league, we’ve always focused on defense and running the ball with good special teams.

Those FOs failed to create complete teams but they certainly provided their qbs with weapons and systems to put up good stats.
 
DeVito52

DeVito52

Ravens Ring of Honor
3-4ravdef509 said:
I actually agree on Rivers. Although he’s never seemed to step it up in the clutch or playoff games. Aside from that concern I’d take him over Joe. I think Rivers and Ben are better than Joe although I think Joe up until recently was more reliable in terms of health. But the drop off in talent and Football IQ from those two to Joe isn’t as much as you suggest it to be.
Click to expand...
Rivers is a borderline HoF QB and the only reason it’s borderline is because he doesn’t have a ring. And you can’t even say Joe is more reliable than Rivers either because that man is tough as nails, just like Joe.

I like Joe and think he can go somewhere next year and succeed, but to say there isn’t a pretty good drop off from Rivers to Joe is very, very homer-ish. Rivers is a better QB than joe by a good distance but that’s not even a knock on joe. Rivers is possibly the most underrated QB of this generation.
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
Man you’all act like a dissenting opinion is going to kill you.

Harbaugh needs to go, as does Decosta if he’s an Ozzie clone. It’s ridiculous that they’ve spent all this time and money on the defense for it to be just
Slightly above average most years, and say what you want about Joe - it makes ZERO sense to give the man $120million and NOT build the team around him.
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
DeVito52 said:
Rivers is a borderline HoF QB and the only reason it’s borderline is because he doesn’t have a ring. And you can’t even say Joe is more reliable than Rivers either because that man is tough as nails, just like Joe.

I like Joe and think he can go somewhere next year and succeed, but to say there isn’t a pretty good drop off from Rivers to Joe is very, very homer-ish. Rivers is a better QB than joe by a good distance but that’s not even a knock on joe. Rivers is possibly the most underrated QB of this generation.
Click to expand...

Idk. Rivers is talented for sure but he’s done nothing substantial other than be good while accomplishing nothing. Stats aren’t everything man.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
3-4ravdef509 said:
Strongly disagree. There’s always been 15-20 teams in average with either franchise qbs or qbs that they drafted high and were riding to see what they had. Passing overall is just exploding and making all an production and play inflate and look better.

What matters most though isn’t production and just winning some games but winning championships and there’s still Just a handful of qbs who’ve shown they can deliver that. Stanford and Rivers for example are great in terms of production but terrible in terms of actually long term helping their team rise
To the top.
Click to expand...

ok then - on that list tell me which teams need new qbs (and reasons why) - we'll count them together and get to a number...
i promise you it will be a lower number than in any previous year in nfl history
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
rossihunter2 said:
ok then - on that list tell me which teams need new qbs (and reasons why) - we'll count them together and get to a number...
i promise you it will be a lower number than in any previous year in nfl history
Click to expand...

http://www.espn.com/nfl/preview11/s...lton-espn-john-clayton-ranks-nfl-starting-qbs

So In 2011 for example I counted at least 20 arguably 23 teams that either were in their mind (not hindsight, in the eyes of the teams going into the season) set at quarterback or has a young prospect that they were optimistic about.
 
3

3-4ravdef509

Practice Squad
rossihunter2 said:
rivers has been the one longterm bright spot in a dysfunctional organisation - it will be a travesty if he never wins a superbowl in his career (but its looking increasingly likely)
Click to expand...
I’m not really disagreeing with that but to say he’s potential HOF is a stretch I think.
 
redrum52

redrum52

Hall of Famer
3-4ravdef509 said:
Man you’all act like a dissenting opinion is going to kill you.

Harbaugh needs to go, as does Decosta if he’s an Ozzie clone. It’s ridiculous that they’ve spent all this time and money on the defense for it to be just
Slightly above average most years, and say what you want about Joe - it makes ZERO sense to give the man $120million and NOT build the team around him.
Click to expand...

No problem with a difference in opinion if it's substantiated. This we didn't try to build around Joe narrative is FALSE. Rice was re-signed as was his favorite target, Pitta. Tried to see what we had in Torrey and brought in SSS. Doss was supposed to be able to fill in for Boldin. It's not Ozzie's fault Ray went Knockout Kings and Pitta's hips turned to peanut brittle. Contracts were given out and a lot of dead money collapsed this team, combined with putting faith in a SLIGHTLY above average qb. People forget we also traded for a LT to try and help, followed by giving a new contract. In 13 there were only 2 pieces on offense that left, Birk and Boldin yet everything fell apart. Then people are mad the FO went defense heavy when they had to replace 2 safeties, 2 ILB, a pass rusher and some DL.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
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