Lamar Jackson

[rossihunter2]

My sense is that Lamar helped the defense as much or more than the defense aided him. Pretty much the same for the OLINE.

that's absolutely a fair assessment - how often was our defence in an advantageous position because we had a lead and had already made the opposing team 1 dimensional - there's definitely something to be said for the idea that the way to beat the ravens is to get a lead on them - so much of our defensive advantage came from that aspect of forcing teams to play to our defensive strength which is the secondary and the schemed blitzes but that's fundamentally more difficult to get right when trailing

teams that beat us usually run the ball well but not because its the running that's beating us - normally its just a sign that they had a lead and therefore were balanced enough to cause us problems - especially with play-action (would be my guess)

its not that our defence is/was bad - but having the lead and not being on the field for large periods of time clearly aided our defence a lot

 

[Edgar]

I did not buy the argument when people said Tim Tebow made Denvers defense and I do not buy it then. Having Jimmy Smith healthy aided the defense because thats when they went from 29th to 4th. Building a secondary that is the best in the NFL is the reason the defense shined. Having Lamar and a strong running game is certainly nice. It meant the Ravens got out to a lead and teams had to throw the ball, but in theory the Ravens winning should HURT the defense because throwing typically means more yards, but the Ravens being so strong in the secondary meant that did not matter.

They were helped by having 3 all pro players on defense and Judon being far better than he gets credit for.

Probably not apples to apples comparing Tebow/Lamar or The Broncos defense/2019 Ravens defense. I was a bit shy about saying it through the year but I felt it. Our defense had trouble stopping the run for most of the season no matter who was on the field. I think, at least in hindsight our defense was vastly overrated and I'll maintain the stance that Lamar was a pretty good weapon for the defense. he certainly wasn't aided by them in the way you seem to suggest.

 

[Edgar]

that's absolutely a fair assessment - how often was our defence in an advantageous position because we had a lead and had already made the opposing team 1 dimensional - there's definitely something to be said for the idea that the way to beat the ravens is to get a lead on them - so much of our defensive advantage came from that aspect of forcing teams to play to our defensive strength which is the secondary and the schemed blitzes but that's fundamentally more difficult to get right when trailing

teams that beat us usually run the ball well but not because its the running that's beating us - normally its just a sign that they had a lead and therefore were balanced enough to cause us problems - especially with play-action (would be my guess)

its not that our defence is/was bad - but having the lead and not being on the field for large periods of time clearly aided our defence a lot

I remember at least one quarter where we held the ball for 13 or so minutes. of course, the defense had to get a three and out to make that work...but only one.

 

[rossihunter2]

I remember at least one quarter where we held the ball for 13 or so minutes. of course, the defense had to get a three and out to make that work...but only one.

exactly - im not going to come out and say the defence wasnt good because it clearly was - but it was also pretty evidently helped out a lot by Lamar (and the offence in general) because of how it shortened the game and took away the run

 

[JoeyFlex5]

im arguing to the death in here. We need to put a stop to the Vick overrating so these fucks can shutup and our boy can get his due respect! Support me!

 

[RavensMania]

Ingram on Lamar

 

[Dom McRaven]

View attachment 2168
im arguing to the death in here. We need to put a stop to the Vick overrating so these fucks can shutup and our boy can get his due respect! Support me!

Bro. Fuck arguing with them because it's a waste of time. It's a losing battle. They either get it or won't. Facebook sports fans ain't shit for the most part.






BUT YOU BETTER GET THE TOP BADGE!

 

[JAAM]

One player cannot just win a team the next 10-12 superbowls which is what you are basically talking about for them to never see a SB. I like the dream, but it seems a tad impractical. Even Lamar this season was helped by a top 5 defense, great OLine play (how did Matt Skura become good...), elite TE play, and amazing health which will not be the case for the next decade.

Most on offense were a bunch of nobodies with Flacco until Lamar stepped in. This is one of those rare cases of a QB making his team better and anyone that argues otherwise are casual Ravens fans that catch a few games a season.

 

[Adreme]

Probably not apples to apples comparing Tebow/Lamar or The Broncos defense/2019 Ravens defense. I was a bit shy about saying it through the year but I felt it. Our defense had trouble stopping the run for most of the season no matter who was on the field. I think, at least in hindsight our defense was vastly overrated and I'll maintain the stance that Lamar was a pretty good weapon for the defense. he certainly wasn't aided by them in the way you seem to suggest.

They had Lamar when they were ranked 29th so he was not helping then. What they didn't have was Marcus Peters and Jimmy Smith. They elevated that defense and it was almost instantaneous and in Jimmy's case it happens every single time to the point where I don't get how people can deny it.

There are two things about this assertion that bother me. One is it feels to much like we are canonizing Lamar and that his mere presence elevates those around him. Its one step away from, on every Peters INT having the camera pan over to Lamar and the announcers go "Look at Lamar cheering; that really gave the courage and energy needed to jump that route." It just sounds ridiculous and its not that far off what we are doing to be honest.

The other more core problem is that is somehow serves as a slight to QBs who couldn't magically nake the defense better. Peyton Manning put up 42 points in a loss in the playoffs and I'm supposed to believe by this metric that its his fault for not helping the defense.

ToP was nice, but the best part of Lamar and the Ravens offense was that they scored points and the defense did not give them up and once the teams had to throw it into that secondary it was over.

As an aside, am I the only one concerned how much worse the offense got after Matt bloody Skura got injured? Is the Oline depth THAT bad?

 

[JoeyFlex5]

They had Lamar when they were ranked 29th so he was not helping then. What they didn't have was Marcus Peters and Jimmy Smith. They elevated that defense and it was almost instantaneous and in Jimmy's case it happens every single time to the point where I don't get how people can deny it.

There are two things about this assertion that bother me. One is it feels to much like we are canonizing Lamar and that his mere presence elevates those around him. Its one step away from, on every Peters INT having the camera pan over to Lamar and the announcers go "Look at Lamar cheering; that really gave the courage and energy needed to jump that route." It just sounds ridiculous and its not that far off what we are doing to be honest.

The other more core problem is that is somehow serves as a slight to QBs who couldn't magically nake the defense better. Peyton Manning put up 42 points in a loss in the playoffs and I'm supposed to believe by this metric that its his fault for not helping the defense.

ToP was nice, but the best part of Lamar and the Ravens offense was that they scored points and the defense did not give them up and once the teams had to throw it into that secondary it was over.

As an aside, am I the only one concerned how much worse the offense got after Matt bloody Skura got injured? Is the Oline depth THAT bad?

I don’t like your attitude bro

 

[rossihunter2]

They had Lamar when they were ranked 29th so he was not helping then. What they didn't have was Marcus Peters and Jimmy Smith. They elevated that defense and it was almost instantaneous and in Jimmy's case it happens every single time to the point where I don't get how people can deny it.

There are two things about this assertion that bother me. One is it feels to much like we are canonizing Lamar and that his mere presence elevates those around him. Its one step away from, on every Peters INT having the camera pan over to Lamar and the announcers go "Look at Lamar cheering; that really gave the courage and energy needed to jump that route." It just sounds ridiculous and its not that far off what we are doing to be honest.

The other more core problem is that is somehow serves as a slight to QBs who couldn't magically nake the defense better. Peyton Manning put up 42 points in a loss in the playoffs and I'm supposed to believe by this metric that its his fault for not helping the defense.

ToP was nice, but the best part of Lamar and the Ravens offense was that they scored points and the defense did not give them up and once the teams had to throw it into that secondary it was over.

As an aside, am I the only one concerned how much worse the offense got after Matt bloody Skura got injured? Is the Oline depth THAT bad?

they were ranked 29th after 2 consecutive losses where the defence gave up over 500 yards - common denominator? both of those teams got up on us fast and could remain multiple with their offence (not sure the chiefs actually need to remain multiple but they were allowed to do whatever they wanted against us)

obviously it helps that jimmy came back and bynes and fort came in and peters came in but ultimately the biggest factor in our defence getting beat was getting behind early but the biggest changes to that defence came in the secondary (with clark also replacing TJ) - getting out to leads like our offence did in almost every single one of the 14 win meant that teams had to play to our defence's strength which is clearly in the secondary and not in the front 7

 

[Tank]

Having a running game, which LJ led along with Gus and then Ingram, was the key to turning the offense around. Having an ineffective run game and throwing the ball 50 times a game was never going to work no matter who the QB was/is. And there’s no doubt that a by product of the ball control offense was a fresh and high performing defense.

Damn I have a keen sense for the obvious! Question I ask is why don’t some others? lol

 

[Ellicottraven]

One player cannot just win a team the next 10-12 superbowls which is what you are basically talking about for them to never see a SB. I like the dream, but it seems a tad impractical. Even Lamar this season was helped by a top 5 defense, great OLine play (how did Matt Skura become good...), elite TE play, and amazing health which will not be the case for the next decade.

Impractical (Incredulous tone)?? Not at all. I'm known to most people as Ellicottraven. But, to the people who know me best I'm known as the living embodiment of Nostradamus' spirit. So before you go on a tirade by saying Lamar Jackson cannot single handedly win for the team is blasphemous. The kid has lost 3 games in 2 seasons after Flacco was benched. He is the reason we got to the playoffs in the first place. He is improving still and when he gets to an iteration where his passing skills match up to his mercurial running skills, then watch him hoist Lombardi after Lombardi till you say WTF!!!

 

[Ellicottraven]

Ingram on Lamar

Lamar Jackson is 'SPECIAL'! I've been saying it since he was drafted. But, now that somebody that sees his butt (literally) every play is saying it as well, do you believe me now??

 

[Adreme]

they were ranked 29th after 2 consecutive losses where the defence gave up over 500 yards - common denominator? both of those teams got up on us fast and could remain multiple with their offence (not sure the chiefs actually need to remain multiple but they were allowed to do whatever they wanted against us)

obviously it helps that jimmy came back and bynes and fort came in and peters came in but ultimately the biggest factor in our defence getting beat was getting behind early but the biggest changes to that defence came in the secondary (with clark also replacing TJ) - getting out to leads like our offence did in almost every single one of the 14 win meant that teams had to play to our defence's strength which is clearly in the secondary and not in the front 7

They did not get up on us fast. The Browns game they were down 4 at halftime and the defense collapsed in the second half because they had no other corner but Marlon who could cover anyone. Same with the Chiefs game. The same recipe happened where the Ravens gave up big chunk plays because the corners were not good enough to defend their guy. The offense was not great in both games (especially that first Cleveland game which makes me want to keep Andrews in bubble wrap all week).

The rematch against the Browns sort of highlights what I am talking about. The offense was kind of rubbish the first 28 minutes but the defense gave up nothing because the Browns could not throw the ball this time because the secondary was better. The second half was nowhere near as bad as last time because the secondary was better. The biggest difference between games 1 and 2 was that the secondary was just light years better than they were before. Being ahead or behind against the Chiefs means nothing because they are going to throw the ball and try to score with big plays regardless of the score because that is how they are built. It affects what the Ravens offense can do but the Chiefs offense will do the same thing regardless (just ask the Texans and Titans).

Lamar is fantastic; he is going to win MVP and deservedly so, but he is not the reason the defense got light years better. Rebuilding the defense from the opening day roster into something much better made them better. Peters, Bynes, Fort, Clark, and Smith were all core parts of the shift that just were not around for the first part of the year.

edit: changed great to fantastic because I felt that merely being great undersold Lamar.

 

[Edgar]

They had Lamar when they were ranked 29th so he was not helping then. What they didn't have was Marcus Peters and Jimmy Smith. They elevated that defense and it was almost instantaneous and in Jimmy's case it happens every single time to the point where I don't get how people can deny it.

There are two things about this assertion that bother me. One is it feels to much like we are canonizing Lamar and that his mere presence elevates those around him. Its one step away from, on every Peters INT having the camera pan over to Lamar and the announcers go "Look at Lamar cheering; that really gave the courage and energy needed to jump that route." It just sounds ridiculous and its not that far off what we are doing to be honest.

The other more core problem is that is somehow serves as a slight to QBs who couldn't magically nake the defense better. Peyton Manning put up 42 points in a loss in the playoffs and I'm supposed to believe by this metric that its his fault for not helping the defense.

ToP was nice, but the best part of Lamar and the Ravens offense was that they scored points and the defense did not give them up and once the teams had to throw it into that secondary it was over.

As an aside, am I the only one concerned how much worse the offense got after Matt bloody Skura got injured? Is the Oline depth THAT bad?

I'm not too concerned about Peyton Manning or his defense as it relates to Jackson/Ravens. I know its just a side point and its an interesting one to consider but a comparison doesn't logically follow (to me at least).
Our offense so far as the extent to which we were using Lamar didn't really open up until after The Steelers and our defense clearly took some steps in the right direction with the additions. On their own, they improved certainly.
Any defense that cannot stop the run and cannot rush the QB isn't going to be successful. We couldn't do either. Our defense allowed L. Bell his best effort and couldn't get off the field on third down vs. The jets (until it got out of hand) as an example.

I take your point that we are in a rush to anoint Lamar. Thats a fair point. its so difficult to play QB consistently through ones career and he'll have to show that he can do that...so we'll see. I can hardly blame myself for it. he was an absolute breath of fresh air and a kick in the butt for this franchise.

If you put his predecessor at QB for the 2019 team, I'm afraid we would find out very quickly just how much Lamar benefitted this defense. One that can't rush the QB and can't stop the run.

also - Id like to have a serious look at a dominant center/interior.

 

[rossihunter2]

also - Id like to have a serious look at a dominant center/interior.

it's really the missing piece in this youth movement - nail that spot with a young guy to also grow with lamar and you're set with optimal franchise building weapons on the offence everywhere you'd commonly want them:

QB
3 OL (2 tackles and C)
2 offensive playmakers (although 1 more is probably ideal)

the defence is where we are missing those commonly sought after franchise weapons:

normally consensus is you need 2 pass rushers - at the moment we have 1 at most if we keep judon - that's a major problem

 

[RL52TheGreatest]

I don't see how Watson wins a few SBs for the Texans as long as Lamar is playing QB at an even improved level than this year. This year, they were struck by a confluence of dropped catches and poor plays that lost them the game. That won't happen beginning next year imo. Once Lamar gets going to his full potential and has the weapons like say Watson and Mahomes already do, then he'll win every SB for the next 6-8 yrs like Michael Jordan did, unless of course he's hurt and misses games.

Otherwise, Watson will always be the Drexler to Lamar's Michael Jordan. As for Mahomes, he is Isaiah who won a championship with the bad boys before the improved and determined MJ started neutralizing them. Then it was all over for the NBA and it'll all be over for the NFL too.

I love your enthusiasm for Lamar, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Realistically, the AFC winner for the foreseeable future is going to likely come down between Mahomes, Lamar, and Watson (Brady is an unknown at this point because it looks like his skills might finally be deteriorating and we don't know how long he will keep playing). Sure, Lamar has the potential to win us multiple Super Bowls, but so do Mahomes and Watson if things swing their way during the playoffs.

 

[rossihunter2]

I love your enthusiasm for Lamar, but let's not get ahead of ourselves here. Realistically, the AFC winner for the foreseeable future is going to likely come down between Mahomes, Lamar, and Watson (Brady is an unknown at this point because it looks like his skills might finally be deteriorating and we don't know how long he will keep playing). Sure, Lamar has the potential to win us multiple Super Bowls, but so do Mahomes and Watson if things swing their way during the playoffs.

if i was a neutral fan in the NFL id be really hoping that one of Josh Allen or Sam Darnold ascend to become high quality qbs so that the future in all 4 divisions in the AFC is set with young franchise qbs who can go back and forth against each other for a decade plus (that's the vision)

alternatively hope that the Dolphins pick Tua and he's everything he could be - Dolphins are in good position right now with Brian Flores looking like a really good HC, loads of resources and a chance to grab a franchise qb

 

[Adreme]

I'm not too concerned about Peyton Manning or his defense as it relates to Jackson/Ravens. I know its just a side point and its an interesting one to consider but a comparison doesn't logically follow (to me at least).
Our offense so far as the extent to which we were using Lamar didn't really open up until after The Steelers and our defense clearly took some steps in the right direction with the additions. On their own, they improved certainly.
Any defense that cannot stop the run and cannot rush the QB isn't going to be successful. We couldn't do either. Our defense allowed L. Bell his best effort and couldn't get off the field on third down vs. The jets (until it got out of hand) as an example.

I take your point that we are in a rush to anoint Lamar. Thats a fair point. its so difficult to play QB consistently through ones career and he'll have to show that he can do that...so we'll see. I can hardly blame myself for it. he was an absolute breath of fresh air and a kick in the butt for this franchise.

If you put his predecessor at QB for the 2019 team, I'm afraid we would find out very quickly just how much Lamar benefitted this defense. One that can't rush the QB and can't stop the run.

also - Id like to have a serious look at a dominant center/interior.

Skura was great (that feels so weird to type) to the point where I just wonder if he might be worth a second contract because when he was out it was very noticeable, the team started to look mortal. I do not know whether that speaks more to a lack of depth or to his skill overall but it is absolutely something noteworthy that when he went down so did production. I would want a top 5 Center as well, but I just wonder if one can find those easily because, and I am sure you could be better at analyzing this then me, but rookie Centers tend to struggle so to find a great one you would have to find a veteran and those are typically expensive so with that being the case why not take a flier on Skura as a average Center?