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Lamar Jackson

OURavensFan said:
Last year I didn’t care too much at the time when Josh got it but now I’m pretty pissed he was snubbed
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I mean Josh dealt with the exact same thing from that survey. Only Burrow and Mahomes were unanimous. The MVP was kind of an obvious "best QB from the top 2 seeds in each conference".
 
Adreme said:
I mean Josh dealt with the exact same thing from that survey. Only Burrow and Mahomes were unanimous. The MVP was kind of an obvious "best QB from the top 2 seeds in each conference".
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Which is an even bigger joke. Mahomes has been mid the last few years and Burrow is overrated. Oh well
 
OURavensFan said:
Which is an even bigger joke. Mahomes has been mid the last few years and Burrow is overrated. Oh well
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But its not a QB ranking list. Its a tier list and 46/50 basically all agreed on the same big 4 QBs as everyone else. I'm sure they differed on the order but that was not what this was a survey of. Mahomes is unquestionably a tier 1 QB (and honestly unquestionably the best QB in football). After that you can fight about the other 3.

I just dont see the big deal about "92% of the respondents all agreed and 8% held out" as some massive joke. 8% of people being irrational and stubborn is a lower number than I expected.
 
Adreme said:
But its not a QB ranking list. Its a tier list and 46/50 basically all agreed on the same big 4 QBs as everyone else. I'm sure they differed on the order but that was not what this was a survey of. Mahomes is unquestionably a tier 1 QB (and honestly unquestionably the best QB in football). After that you can fight about the other 3.

I just dont see the big deal about "92% of the respondents all agreed and 8% held out" as some massive joke. 8% of people being irrational and stubborn is a lower number than I expected.
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Mahomes is being ranked on career achievements right now, the last few seasons he has not been better than the other 3
 
OURavensFan said:
Mahomes is being ranked on career achievements right now, the last few seasons he has not been better than the other 3
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Its because people are aware that he has had some of the worst weapons in the NFL the past couple years. At one point their WR1 was a player cut by the Patriots (so another team with bottom 5 weapons). Their RB was hurt most of the year, their T position was so poor they had to try out a G at T for the Super Bowl, and Kelce is clearly several steps slower.

There is also that in the big moments he finds a way to make all that look decent. Obviously Mahomes has the better career resume. Lamar could win the next 2 Super Bowls and an MVP and Mahomes still has the better career resume. But he is universally considered the best because people watch the games and see him win with nothing.
 
OURavensFan said:
Dan Orlowsky has already started his burrow mvp campaign.

I simply don’t know what Lamar needs to do at this point besides win a super bowl
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The winning of a Super Bowl is literally the only thing... yet they'll still find a way to not give him as much credit as he deserves. Multiple SB's might quiet it a little more.
 
OURavensFan said:
Dan Orlowsky has already started his burrow mvp campaign.

I simply don’t know what Lamar needs to do at this point besides win a super bowl
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Wouldnt be surprised if joe won it. Bills got a super easy schedule so allen could actually have a convincing case this season.
 
Adreme said:
Its because people are aware that he has had some of the worst weapons in the NFL the past couple years. At one point their WR1 was a player cut by the Patriots (so another team with bottom 5 weapons). Their RB was hurt most of the year, their T position was so poor they had to try out a G at T for the Super Bowl, and Kelce is clearly several steps slower.

There is also that in the big moments he finds a way to make all that look decent. Obviously Mahomes has the better career resume. Lamar could win the next 2 Super Bowls and an MVP and Mahomes still has the better career resume. But he is universally considered the best because people watch the games and see him win with nothing.
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interesting that they are "aware" that he had the worst weapons, but didn't consider how bad Lamar's weapons were back in 2019 when he became MVP or even 2018 when he took the team on his back into the playoffs. Hell we had bad weapons throughout his rookie deal.
 
RavensMania said:
interesting that they are "aware" that he had the worst weapons, but didn't consider how bad Lamar's weapons were back in 2019 when he became MVP or even 2018 when he took the team on his back into the playoffs. Hell we had bad weapons throughout his rookie deal.
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First off, lets not try to retcon 2018. Lamar played badly in 2018 and its why he was something like a 300-1 bet to win MVP because he looked like Tim Tebow out there. I think the same thing of Josh Allen: they put in a TON of work to improve from looking very bad at the start of their careers. I am not going to sell that improvement short by pretending they were starting off strong

Now onto the main point, 2019 Ravens had significantly better weapons than what the Chiefs have had the past 2 years. 2019 Ravens were better at every skill position and its honestly not close. I would call their weapons last year the 2021 RB room meeting the 2015 WR room.
 
RavensMania said:
interesting that they are "aware" that he had the worst weapons, but didn't consider how bad Lamar's weapons were back in 2019 when he became MVP or even 2018 when he took the team on his back into the playoffs. Hell we had bad weapons throughout his rookie deal.
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I guess my question is if you win the MVP, how can you be rated "higher" than literally the best player in football? I don't see the point in giving "more credit" to an MVP with bad weapons. He's already gotten the max credit, and he earned the criticism he got for both he and the teams playoff performance that year.

And I'm not one of these guys that thinks wins and playoff performance is the only metric that means anything for a QB. I'd take Dan Marino over John Elway every single day as a better NFL QB. I'm not even sure its close either. And I think Peyton Manning was better than Tom Brady.
 
Adreme said:
First off, lets not try to retcon 2018. Lamar played badly in 2018 and its why he was something like a 300-1 bet to win MVP because he looked like Tim Tebow out there. I think the same thing of Josh Allen: they put in a TON of work to improve from looking very bad at the start of their careers. I am not going to sell that improvement short by pretending they were starting off strong

Now onto the main point, 2019 Ravens had significantly better weapons than what the Chiefs have had the past 2 years. 2019 Ravens were better at every skill position and its honestly not close. I would call their weapons last year the 2021 RB room meeting the 2015 WR room.
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I never expected him to get MVP but he was able to get us into the playoffs where Flacco was not going to lead us to the playoffs in 2018. That's all I'm saying.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
I guess my question is if you win the MVP, how can you be rated "higher" than literally the best player in football? I don't see the point in giving "more credit" to an MVP with bad weapons. He's already gotten the max credit, and he earned the criticism he got for both he and the teams playoff performance that year.

And I'm not one of these guys that thinks wins and playoff performance is the only metric that means anything for a QB. I'd take Dan Marino over John Elway every single day as a better NFL QB. I'm not even sure its close either. And I think Peyton Manning was better than Tom Brady.
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That isn't the point at all and I'd agree with you on the 2nd statement 100%. The first part is in retrospect when people talk about Lamar currently and bring up 2019, they never consider how bad his weapons were and also don't consider the injuries we had in '21 and '22. Not saying he deserved MVP.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
I guess my question is if you win the MVP, how can you be rated "higher" than literally the best player in football? I don't see the point in giving "more credit" to an MVP with bad weapons. He's already gotten the max credit, and he earned the criticism he got for both he and the teams playoff performance that year.

And I'm not one of these guys that thinks wins and playoff performance is the only metric that means anything for a QB. I'd take Dan Marino over John Elway every single day as a better NFL QB. I'm not even sure its close either. And I think Peyton Manning was better than Tom Brady.
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I think having bad weapons can certainly boost the case for being an MVP. And it doesn't mean you are the best player in the league, or at your position. It would seem MVP means you held the most value for your team's success.
 
Tank said:
I think having bad weapons can certainly boost the case for being an MVP. And it doesn't mean you are the best player in the league, or at your position. It would seem MVP means you held the most value for your team's success.
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Correct. Stats are obviously a huge point, but guys like Burrow and Hurts are going to struggle to win MVP awards if their entire supporting cast is healthy, due to the loaded nature of the skill position players around them.

Josh Allen won MVP last year not only because he was great statistically, but because the cast of players around him just wasn't very good. If both Allen and Lamar missed the season last year, I'd bet heavy $ that the Ravens would have won more games than the Bills. Potentially significantly more games. Hence why his "value" was higher. Don't think he was the better player.
 
RavensMania said:
That isn't the point at all and I'd agree with you on the 2nd statement 100%. The first part is in retrospect when people talk about Lamar currently and bring up 2019, they never consider how bad his weapons were and also don't consider the injuries we had in '21 and '22. Not saying he deserved MVP.
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I think the injury argument kind of goes out the window for me. The kinds of teams that actually have significant injury concerns, like last years 49ers, aren't making the playoffs. And everybody knows why. Injuries are a factor in all cases but they're rarely THE factor. Every single team that hasn't beaten us in the playoffs has had significant injuries to deal with while doing it.

I'm not saying we should have beat Cincy with Huntley. An injury to an elite QB means a hell of a lot more than injuries to the top 5 non-QBs on the roster. But people use the "well we didn't have X or Y" player nonsense all the time to suggest why outcomes occur. Yet the team that beat you was missing key players in most cases also.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
Correct. Stats are obviously a huge point, but guys like Burrow and Hurts are going to struggle to win MVP awards if their entire supporting cast is healthy, due to the loaded nature of the skill position players around them.

Josh Allen won MVP last year not only because he was great statistically, but because the cast of players around him just wasn't very good. If both Allen and Lamar missed the season last year, I'd bet heavy $ that the Ravens would have won more games than the Bills. Potentially significantly more games. Hence why his "value" was higher. Don't think he was the better player.
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Idk, AFCE and the Bills schedule is pretty weak and our backup QB was awful.
 
rmcjacket23 said:
I think the injury argument kind of goes out the window for me. The kinds of teams that actually have significant injury concerns, like last years 49ers, aren't making the playoffs. And everybody knows why. Injuries are a factor in all cases but they're rarely THE factor. Every single team that hasn't beaten us in the playoffs has had significant injuries to deal with while doing it.

I'm not saying we should have beat Cincy with Huntley. An injury to an elite QB means a hell of a lot more than injuries to the top 5 non-QBs on the roster. But people use the "well we didn't have X or Y" player nonsense all the time to suggest why outcomes occur. Yet the team that beat you was missing key players in most cases also.
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If Burrow was missing Chase tho we’d never hear the end of it. No one even mentions Lamar missing Flowers. Now I understand the significance of what each offense revolves around, but good god, I’d like the media to acknowledge Lamar led a game tying (almost) drive with special teams gunners
 
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