The 2023 Offseason Thread

[Michael M.]

Where’s all the Stephens hate come from? I thought he’s been solid and developing well given his background

I just know I never had confidence putting games in the hands of the defense, primarily because of the secondary. They gave up big yardage when it mattered. I don't think Stephens is horrible, just average.

 

[Simba]

Obviously way too early for this, but...
1. I think they'd like to get to 10 Olineman potentially, but no idea how. They only way I think they stick at 9 is if Mekari is basically the backup Center, and he's apparently a possible starter at LG. I would think they'd want to position themselves with Faalele as the Swing Tackle, as opposed to Mekari, for 2023.
2. 11 linebackers is insane. I can't get there. I think 5 OLBs makes sense, but 6 ILBs, especially when you have Roquan and Queen who rarely leave the field, is way too many. Granted, many play ST, but they're evidently high on Simpson as a ST also. I think it'll be 9 or 10, at most.
3. I'm not even sure 10 in the secondary is enough, but depends on who they are I guess. Hamilton can pretty much play SCB or Safety, so they may go with more Safeties and less Corners. I have a suspicion they'll add two veterans, and somebody like a JAD or Pepe may not make the roster.
4. I could also, conceivably, see them going with just 5 WRs, depending on where your makeup for ST players are. Honestly on just talent alone, I have no idea how Wallace makes this team, though I can't think of another WR who would make it over him. But all other things being equal, I'd take a Seymour, Worley or Washington over him.

I mean yeah I've admitted it's too early, but it's clear you underestimate ST work which somehow "surprises" people every single year when we keep the best guys there regardless of position. Don't forget we can use the PS for a couple of weeks as well for some of those light positions.

 

[Michael M.]

I just know I never had confidence putting games in the hands of the defense, primarily because of the secondary. They gave up big yardage when it mattered. I don't think Stephens is horrible, just average.

But maybe if the offense can stay on the field longer, it will take pressure off the D.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I mean yeah I've admitted it's too early, but it's clear you underestimate ST work which somehow "surprises" people every single year when we keep the best guys there regardless of position. Don't forget we can use the PS for a couple of weeks as well for some of those light positions.

I'm not really even discounting it that much. Because some of the guys who have roster spots, like Hill, are pretty much exclusively for that reason.
But I mostly just look back at how we've formulated rosters in prior years. We've always maintained high focus on ST, yet last year, we had 8 linebackers on the initial 53, and 10 DBs. So I personally don't see how we go from 8 to 11 in a single year, especially when we've added two, one of which never comes off the field and the other at least sounds like he'll be a core ST player anyway.

Similarly, I think we had arguably much more depth/certainty on the Oline last year, and we kept 11 on the initial 53. 2021 they kept 9, and we were criticized heavily for that unit and its lack of depth.
In same year, it was 9 linebackers and 11 DBs, but that DB group had supreme depth.

Understanding there's PS callups and what not, so plenty of those guys will likely get cut and re-signed anyway. But mostly just from the initial 53, I can't see us being that heavy with linebackers.

 

[Simba]

I'm not really even discounting it that much. Because some of the guys who have roster spots, like Hill, are pretty much exclusively for that reason.
But I mostly just look back at how we've formulated rosters in prior years. We've always maintained high focus on ST, yet last year, we had 8 linebackers on the initial 53, and 10 DBs. So I personally don't see how we go from 8 to 11 in a single year, especially when we've added two, one of which never comes off the field and the other at least sounds like he'll be a core ST player anyway.

Similarly, I think we had arguably much more depth/certainty on the Oline last year, and we kept 11 on the initial 53. 2021 they kept 9, and we were criticized heavily for that unit and its lack of depth.
In same year, it was 9 linebackers and 11 DBs, but that DB group had supreme depth.

Understanding there's PS callups and what not, so plenty of those guys will likely get cut and re-signed anyway. But mostly just from the initial 53, I can't see us being that heavy with linebackers.

We only kept 8 LBs last year because we had that veteran handshake with Means on the PS, and we added Del'Shawn Phillips on waivers. So that 8 LBs turned into 10 (and then back to 9 when Ojabo went to the reserve list) in short order. And that excludes Bowser who wasn't ready yet who would have made the team if he was. And then that 11 OL turned to 10 real quick when we swapped Del'Shawn for Tyre Phillips.

So yeah, I don't think it really matters that much. Further, it's a different year. We kept 11 OL on the initial 53 last year because we had the depth to do so. If you can pick 11 out of our current group, more power to you. I see 8 + maybe John Simpson that are firmly in line for a spot right now so I'm not taking a ton just because I did last year. It's about the quality of player and the quality we have currently doesn't match up to the quality we had last year.

Basically, if the guys that can contribute are at LB, S, whatever it is, they'll keep them. Think it's dumb to look at it from a pure numbers perspective.

 

[allblackraven]

Does nobody see Kyle Fuller on 53 once all is said and done?

 

[JAAM]

All I see are dubs

 

[Simba]

Does nobody see Kyle Fuller on 53 once all is said and done?

I'd say no now but that's largely just because he's coming off of injury and probably won't sign until TC if he even does. Think they'll go to healthier options first before revisiting.

 

[rmcjacket23]

We only kept 8 LBs last year because we had that veteran handshake with Means on the PS, and we added Del'Shawn Phillips on waivers. So that 8 LBs turned into 10 (and then back to 9 when Ojabo went to the reserve list) in short order. And that excludes Bowser who wasn't ready yet who would have made the team if he was. And then that 11 OL turned to 10 real quick when we swapped Del'Shawn for Tyre Phillips.

So yeah, I don't think it really matters that much. Further, it's a different year. We kept 11 OL on the initial 53 last year because we had the depth to do so. If you can pick 11 out of our current group, more power to you. I see 8 + maybe John Simpson that are firmly in line for a spot right now so I'm not taking a ton just because I did last year. It's about the quality of player and the quality we have currently doesn't match up to the quality we had last year.

Basically, if the guys that can contribute are at LB, S, whatever it is, they'll keep them. Think it's dumb to look at it from a pure numbers perspective.

I'm not seeing 11 Olineman, mostly because most of our depth has positional versatility. But we're like at like 7 guys today, which clearly ain't what we're going to go with.

Its not necessarily about just pure positional value though. Harrison played a lot of LB last year before Roquan got here. Is he really that great at ST that he can be 4th or 5th on the LB depth chart, effectively never play the position, and still make the team? I don't. Somebody like a Washington or a JAD or a Kelly will at least potentially be a rotational piece in a Dime package. Some of these guys are so far buried down the depth chart that unless they're Duvernay or Hill-level on ST, its almost impossible to keep them on.

Injuries or trades could solve this. If Queen isn't here in 3 months, maybe its different. But as of today, it's too skewed.

 

[Simba]

I'm not seeing 11 Olineman, mostly because most of our depth has positional versatility. But we're like at like 7 guys today, which clearly ain't what we're going to go with.

Its not necessarily about just pure positional value though. Harrison played a lot of LB last year before Roquan got here. Is he really that great at ST that he can be 4th or 5th on the LB depth chart, effectively never play the position, and still make the team? I don't. Somebody like a Washington or a JAD or a Kelly will at least potentially be a rotational piece in a Dime package. Some of these guys are so far buried down the depth chart that unless they're Duvernay or Hill-level on ST, its almost impossible to keep them on.

Injuries or trades could solve this. If Queen isn't here in 3 months, maybe its different. But as of today, it's too skewed.

I mean yes, Harrison literally played the most ST snaps on the entire team last year... 78% of them. Kristian Welch and Del'Shawn Phillips played on the ST units in every game they were healthy last year and had a grand total of 5 snaps combined at LB. It doesn't matter.

 

[RavensMania]

I'd say no now but that's largely just because he's coming off of injury and probably won't sign until TC if he even does. Think they'll go to healthier options first before revisiting.

I don't think so either, especially since it was the same ACL that he tore previously.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

I don’t get it either. Guy literally played S his rookie year and then was forced back to CB in year 2 and had several games where he was arguably the best player on the field on D. Inconsistent and imperfect but he’s been growing

On the Ravens defense? I think you're the first and only person who has ever tried to argue that.

I don't hate Stephens but I don't think he's ever looked good enough to see the field on defense in the NFL, not yet anyway. If he is hated, it might be because he was vastly over-drafted. However, his versatility was touted as a reason they picked him so (relatively) high, so I'm not sure it can also be an excuse.

I think he's looked a little better at CB than S, so the switch helped him, if anything.

 

[rmcjacket23]

On the Ravens defense? I think you're the first and only person who has ever tried to argue that.

I don't hate Stephens but I don't think he's ever looked good enough to see the field on defense in the NFL, not yet anyway. If he is hated, it might be because he was vastly over-drafted. However, his versatility was touted as a reason they picked him so (relatively) high, so I'm not sure it can also be an excuse.

I think he's looked a little better at CB than S, so the switch helped him, if anything.

Just from a practical standpoint... can you really ever be over-drafted in the third round? Especially at a position like that...

 

[Simba]

On the Ravens defense? I think you're the first and only person who has ever tried to argue that.

I don't hate Stephens but I don't think he's ever looked good enough to see the field on defense in the NFL, not yet anyway. If he is hated, it might be because he was vastly over-drafted. However, his versatility was touted as a reason they picked him so (relatively) high, so I'm not sure it can also be an excuse.

I think he's looked a little better at CB than S, so the switch helped him, if anything.

You didn't watch last year. Inconsistent? Absolutely. He never really stacked those performances week after week. But he had games here and there where he played incredibly well. Plenty of receipts in the post-game threads.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

I mean yeah I've admitted it's too early, but it's clear you underestimate ST work which somehow "surprises" people every single year when we keep the best guys there regardless of position. Don't forget we can use the PS for a couple of weeks as well for some of those light positions.

I don't doubt you're right, the Ravens will keep several players on the roster for S/T alone, but I wish they'd stop. It's a mistake they make every year - rostering too many special teamers and ending up short in the secondary at some point and scrambling to find bodies. Every year, I hope this will be the year they learn, but it never changes.

I thought that the Ravens have over-valued special teams for a while now. Football has become a game of possessions rather than a game of field position.

 

[cdp]

I'm not really even discounting it that much. Because some of the guys who have roster spots, like Hill, are pretty much exclusively for that reason.
But I mostly just look back at how we've formulated rosters in prior years. We've always maintained high focus on ST, yet last year, we had 8 linebackers on the initial 53, and 10 DBs. So I personally don't see how we go from 8 to 11 in a single year, especially when we've added two, one of which never comes off the field and the other at least sounds like he'll be a core ST player anyway.

Similarly, I think we had arguably much more depth/certainty on the Oline last year, and we kept 11 on the initial 53. 2021 they kept 9, and we were criticized heavily for that unit and its lack of depth.
In same year, it was 9 linebackers and 11 DBs, but that DB group had supreme depth.

Understanding there's PS callups and what not, so plenty of those guys will likely get cut and re-signed anyway. But mostly just from the initial 53, I can't see us being that heavy with linebackers.

One position we haven't talked about is FB. I like Ricard and what he's done for the Ravens but I'm not sure if he plays as much as he did in Roman's scheme.

 

[QtR Nevermore]

You didn't watch last year. Inconsistent? Absolutely. He never really stacked those performances week after week. But he had games here and there where he played incredibly well. Plenty of receipts in the post-game threads.

He had some good plays, but it never quite amounted to a good game in my view, never mind the best performance of the whole defense.

 

[rmcjacket23]

One position we haven't talked about is FB. I like Ricard and what he's done for the Ravens but I'm not sure if he plays as much as he did in Roman's scheme.

Hes a wildcard for sure as we head into the season. My assumption is that since he's made it this long, he has a great shot of staying on. But I suppose if we get to camp and realize the offense we want to run doesn't utilize FBs, he could get cut.

 

[cdp]

I don't doubt you're right, the Ravens will keep several players on the roster for S/T alone, but I wish they'd stop. It's a mistake they make every year - rostering too many special teamers and ending up short in the secondary at some point and scrambling to find bodies. Every year, I hope this will be the year they learn, but it never changes.

I thought that the Ravens have over-valued special teams for a while now. Football has become a game of possessions rather than a game of field position.

Yeah but there's not much you can do once a 2nd or 3rd starter from the same position goes down.

 

[Simba]

He had some good plays, but it never quite amounted to a good game in my view, never mind the best performance of the whole defense.

Go watch the 2nd Steelers game from last season. He was a dog in that one. And one earlier in the season that I can't remember.