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The Lamar, The Defence and The Special Teams

rossihunter2 said:
I think the question I have is…
If we weren’t up against the cap, would you give madubuike a competitive, top of the market DT deal…

I think the answer is yes

Which means it should still be yes when you’re up against the cap too
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Same thing that was going through my head. You can massage the cap and make it work. Going to have to make some sacrifices but chances are you’re doing that whether it’s Madubuike you pay or a collection of other players. May not be an immediate sacrifice but at some point in the future paying the older guys is going to rear its head as well.
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
I think the fact that someone like Andrew Vorhees is even getting a mention is pretty laughable and a huge cause for concern. Players coming off injury and missing an entire rookie season don't have a great track record of working out.

If signing Madibuike meant losing both starting guards, Moses, Queen, Darby, Clowney, Van Noy, OBJ, Maulet, I think you'd be crazy to do it. But that's a potential reality. Realistically, a lot of those guys are walking anyway (Queen, Zeitler, Simpson, almost certainly), but you have to start dipping into the money pot elsewhere and taking from other positions.

I do not view Madibuike as this franchise altering player who is going to make up for the losses of guys like Clowney, Von Noy, Darby, Queen, and Maulet on defense or justify the potential loss of three offensive lineman.

Like I said- it's not *just* signing Madibuike- it's signing Madibuike and severely handicapping the ability to sign other players.
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So I'm not really in either side of the camp, but a couple things I'd point out...
a) A lot of those players you're going to lose, regardless of whether Mads is kept or not. Guys like Van Noy, Darby, Simpson, Maulet types of fringe starter, depth players. They're only staying if they're staying at near the vet minimum regardless. You'll just sign (or draft) other guys to take those spots. We find these exact guys every year.
b) if we win the SB, chances are you're not truly going to be a "SB contender" next year or maybe even the year after. It's just not realistic. We can claim we are a contender as long as we have Lamar, but part of the reason you can spend $15M on OBJ and still get the Clowney's, Van Noy's, etc. of the world is because your QB is still cheap. He's not going to be cheap forever.
c) We're 100% going to be in the cheap vet, heavy expectations on draft picks mode, starting next year. True regardless of whether you keep Mads or not.
The Darby's and RYS will be replaced with the Pepe's and the JADs. Rookie contract guys who will need to step up. The Clowney's and Van Noy's will be replaced with the Ojabo's and Robinson's. That's just the reality of things.
We're approaching the contract point with Lamar where we will live or die based on how well our draft picks play.
d) because of the restructure done on OBJ's deal, who I doubt will be back, you create a good bit of cap space post June-1, which you would use to sign draft picks., create extensions, etc.
 
Simba said:
Same thing that was going through my head. You can massage the cap and make it work. Going to have to make some sacrifices but chances are you’re doing that whether it’s Madubuike you pay or a collection of other players. May not be an immediate sacrifice but at some point in the future paying the older guys is going to rear its head as well.
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Madubuike is 26 years old and an ascending player who’s made himself an intrinsic irreplaceable part of this defence

Regardless of whether we lose other guys to keep him, he’s the guy we can’t replace

Even if there are 8 other guys like him in the league, we can’t replace him with them because they will cost the same as him, and also are already on other teams who won’t let them go…
 
Honestly shouldn't even be a question of if we keep Madubuike. Instead, it should be a question of how much?
 
rmcjacket23 said:
So I'm not really in either side of the camp, but a couple things I'd point out...
a) A lot of those players you're going to lose, regardless of whether Mads is kept or not. Guys like Van Noy, Darby, Simpson, Maulet types of fringe starter, depth players. They're only staying if they're staying at near the vet minimum regardless. You'll just sign (or draft) other guys to take those spots. We find these exact guys every year.
b) if we win the SB, chances are you're not truly going to be a "SB contender" next year or maybe even the year after. It's just not realistic. We can claim we are a contender as long as we have Lamar, but part of the reason you can spend $15M on OBJ and still get the Clowney's, Van Noy's, etc. of the world is because your QB is still cheap. He's not going to be cheap forever.
c) We're 100% going to be in the cheap vet, heavy expectations on draft picks mode, starting next year. True regardless of whether you keep Mads or not.
The Darby's and RYS will be replaced with the Pepe's and the JADs. Rookie contract guys who will need to step up. The Clowney's and Van Noy's will be replaced with the Ojabo's and Robinson's. That's just the reality of things.
We're approaching the contract point with Lamar where we will live or die based on how well our draft picks play.
d) because of the restructure done on OBJ's deal, who I doubt will be back, you create a good bit of cap space post June-1, which you would use to sign draft picks., create extensions, etc.
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Yes, I have been trying to get that point across- I don't expect every free agent to be back and I wouldn't even if the Ravens had monstrous amounts of cap space. That's the nature of football and free agency- players come and go.

With that said, you still have to replace those players with someone and it becomes a much taller task when you commit massive cap to a singular player like Madibuike when you're already incredibly tight.

I just checked the Ravens projected cap and it's currently ~$6M with the rule of 51. I'm not sure if that accounts for Bowser's roll over and it doesn't account for him being cut. I had always thought the Ravens cap was going to be around $13M or so to start.

Anyway... I never expected the Ravens to go out and make another Marcus Williams tier signing, but I think this makes even an OBJ or even Clowney tier signings a little difficult. As you said, I think you're looking at more Maulet and Simpson level signings. Maulet has been fantastic given expectations, but Simpson is one you'd never be upset to upgrade. If every free agent was replaced by a Simpson level player, the Ravens would be in a lot of trouble.

But yeah, going to come down to how well the Ravens draft and bargain hunt.
 
rossihunter2 said:
I think the question I have is…
If we weren’t up against the cap, would you give madubuike a competitive, top of the market DT deal…

I think the answer is yes

Which means it should still be yes when you’re up against the cap too
Click to expand...
But there's players every single year you could say this about.

Off the top of my head, I'm sure the Ravens would have loved to keep guys like Mosley, Za'darius Smith, Kelechi Osemele.

The reality of a hard cap is you're going to lose guys you don't want to. It's just the unfortunate reality.
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
But there's players every single year you could say this about.

Off the top of my head, I'm sure the Ravens would have loved to keep guys like Mosley, Za'darius Smith, Kelechi Osemele.

The reality of a hard cap is you're going to lose guys you don't want to. It's just the unfortunate reality.
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Well if you're willing to use void years religiously, like other teams do, then you can get $20M players for less than $10M.
 
Madubuike’s return depends on a lot of factors. Do we make the Super Bowl? Do we lose AFCCG or Super Bowl? Does Macdonald return? Do the Ravens feel they have 80/20 satisfied? Is he a generational talent? How pivotal is he to our game plan and scheme and to what scheme whoever the DC is? These are all questions we cannot answer now. A lot will decide if we bring back Madubuike. I don’t think price will be the reason he isn’t back nor do I think our 2024 free agents will play a role there either. Even a draft pick isn’t guaranteed, which is another factor: do the Ravens feel we can replace Madubuike with someone on the team or someone in FA or the Draft? A lot of question marks. What is known is the DL is critical to LB play and we will very likely lose a LB. What’s also true is we have struggled with the run at times this year.
 
Grim said:
Madubuike’s return depends on a lot of factors. Do we make the Super Bowl? Do we lose AFCCG or Super Bowl? Does Macdonald return? Do the Ravens feel they have 80/20 satisfied? Is he a generational talent? How pivotal is he to our game plan and scheme and to what scheme whoever the DC is? These are all questions we cannot answer now. A lot will decide if we bring back Madubuike. I don’t think price will be the reason he isn’t back nor do I think our 2024 free agents will play a role there either. Even a draft pick isn’t guaranteed, which is another factor: do the Ravens feel we can replace Madubuike with someone on the team or someone in FA or the Draft? A lot of question marks. What is known is the DL is critical to LB play and we will very likely lose a LB. What’s also true is we have struggled with the run at times this year.
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Madubuike is what Chris Jones is to the Chiefs. Take Chris Jones out and that defense is not nearly the same. Madubuike is a Raven no matter what for years to come.
 
rossihunter2 said:
Madubuike is 26 years old and an ascending player who’s made himself an intrinsic irreplaceable part of this defence

Regardless of whether we lose other guys to keep him, he’s the guy we can’t replace

Even if there are 8 other guys like him in the league, we can’t replace him with them because they will cost the same as him, and also are already on other teams who won’t let them go…
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This is why I'd pay him. Ascending player and has each year he's played for us. It's not like this year is really a shock considering the path he's been on. Everyone who's played around him spoke on the talent and what's they've seen in practice. Now he's just doing it consistently. And he's been one of our healthiest guys.
 
Grim said:
Madubuike’s return depends on a lot of factors. Do we make the Super Bowl? Do we lose AFCCG or Super Bowl? Does Macdonald return? Do the Ravens feel they have 80/20 satisfied? Is he a generational talent? How pivotal is he to our game plan and scheme and to what scheme whoever the DC is? These are all questions we cannot answer now. A lot will decide if we bring back Madubuike. I don’t think price will be the reason he isn’t back nor do I think our 2024 free agents will play a role there either. Even a draft pick isn’t guaranteed, which is another factor: do the Ravens feel we can replace Madubuike with someone on the team or someone in FA or the Draft? A lot of question marks. What is known is the DL is critical to LB play and we will very likely lose a LB. What’s also true is we have struggled with the run at times this year.
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I still think none of this actually matters.

We've been desperate to find a guy like Madubuike for almost a decade, ever since Haloti days. EDC will do everything he can to keep him. The only obstacle will be another team with the ridiculous offer, much like what the Jets gave to CJ Mosley at the time.

And for a DT with 13 sacks on the year, there's bound to be more than one team willing to outprice the Ravens.
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
Yes, I have been trying to get that point across- I don't expect every free agent to be back and I wouldn't even if the Ravens had monstrous amounts of cap space. That's the nature of football and free agency- players come and go.

With that said, you still have to replace those players with someone and it becomes a much taller task when you commit massive cap to a singular player like Madibuike when you're already incredibly tight.

I just checked the Ravens projected cap and it's currently ~$6M with the rule of 51. I'm not sure if that accounts for Bowser's roll over and it doesn't account for him being cut. I had always thought the Ravens cap was going to be around $13M or so to start.

Anyway... I never expected the Ravens to go out and make another Marcus Williams tier signing, but I think this makes even an OBJ or even Clowney tier signings a little difficult. As you said, I think you're looking at more Maulet and Simpson level signings. Maulet has been fantastic given expectations, but Simpson is one you'd never be upset to upgrade. If every free agent was replaced by a Simpson level player, the Ravens would be in a lot of trouble.

But yeah, going to come down to how well the Ravens draft and bargain hunt.
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Give me a few maulets and simpsons with one madubuike all day erry day
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
But there's players every single year you could say this about.

Off the top of my head, I'm sure the Ravens would have loved to keep guys like Mosley, Za'darius Smith, Kelechi Osemele.

The reality of a hard cap is you're going to lose guys you don't want to. It's just the unfortunate reality.
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Not one of those guys is a guy I wanted to keep because of what they’d command on the market. Madubuike I know is gonna reset the market and I’m here for it, those guys were never in Beeks’ stratosphere.
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
I am curious if this becomes the new norm or not because it's left teams like the Saints in a perpetual state of mediocrity.
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Leaves them in a state of mediocrity only because they don't have a good QB. They prefer to keep trying to rehab veterans as opposed to going all-in on a draft replacement.
Eagles have been using void years plenty for many years, and they typically have an exceptional roster.

I had the same question about long term usage. Based on the Pierce extension, where they added one more void year, doesn't appear we're terrified to use it. Just depends on scope.

For a JM type deal, I don't know that we'll stretch it out too far. But for most teams, the ability to keep somebody like Lamar's cap hit relatively realistic is pretty much entirely dependent on the usage of void years.

Also recognizing that by the time JM gets super expensive, some of the guys who are expensive today won't be around. Namely, Stanley, perhaps Marlon and Andrews. Now obviously there's no extensions to be given out, but some of the large contracts on the books for '24 won't be around in '25, '26, when JM would actually become expensive.
 
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