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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
ok so what if you cant actually afford to support that "mistake" what then? because there's thousands of kids solely in alabama who havent been adopted so there's clearly a "surplus" of supply vs demand already if you want to really get down to it on a purely numbers basis

so what happens to all these extra tiny humans who arent self-sufficient and cant or wont be provided for...

You also have no idea if these "unwanted" babies could have a great life. There is no way to recreate a life that is the same even if its the same 2 people creating.

Listen after 8 weeks that fetus can feel pain. Think of what its like after 40 weeks lets say. I'm not going to post any links on this since it disgusts me but maybe you should check out how the fetus is aborted especially at a later stage.

The bottomline is there has to be a cutoff otherwise it becomes barbaric.
 

flynismo

Practice Squad
i agree with you - if you want to reduce abortions, the real answer is to improve and expand sexual education and to make contraception and birth control more accessible and less stigmatised - naturally a more intelligent society will abort less but that's not the interest of the anti-abortion movement

i think the answer there is that the heart of the "pro-life" movement is not actually being pro-life, it's being pro-control over women and mothers (it's pretty obvious that it comes from a view of traditional christian nuclear families being idealised given all the anti-abortion thinking in the bible belt and from evangelicals in particular)

this from an alabama pastor:

D65Y2Y1U8AAnqWO.jpg:large


pro-lifers have a very narrow focus - the movement has no problem with capital punishment, and reduced government control as regarding welfare, health care, climate change, prison reform, child-care, access to education etc. the pro-life movement doesnt care about life they care about advocating for a very particular group who can say nothing either way

especially with regards to abortion - if you want to acceptably make abortion mandatory then you have to make pre-natal care free, you have to make childcare free, you revamp education, you redo the child support system, you improve and expand adoption networks, you create more affordable housing etc. etc. etc.

Thanks, that is actually very insightful. I understand the concern of controlling women (in context of the discussion here). I'm with you guys on that point, I do not like government sticking their noses where it does not belong. But where we part ways is that in the process of trying to protect the womens' rights, you are disregarding men's rights in the process (some of the pro-choicers gleefully so). There has to be a better way to approach it than that, you know?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
You also have no idea if these "unwanted" babies could have a great life. There is no way to recreate a life that is the same even if its the same 2 people creating.

Listen after 8 weeks that fetus can feel pain. Think of what its like after 40 weeks lets say. I'm not going to post any links on this since it disgusts me but maybe you should check out how the fetus is aborted especially at a later stage.

The bottomline is there has to be a cutoff otherwise it becomes barbaric.

you still havent actually answered my question - what happens to the child if they cant be supported by the parents who have been forced to have this unwanted (or potentially non-viable) child
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
This is true. And the state of Alabama is shameful.

From one spectrum to the other side. I believe states like Alabama are just in reverse kneejerking to the shameful laws that NY passes. Rape has to be included albeit tho with a police report.

All in all tho this is really a disgusting subject.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Thanks, that is actually very insightful. I understand the concern of controlling women (in context of the discussion here). I'm with you guys on that point, I do not like government sticking their noses where it does not belong. But where we part ways is that in the process of trying to protect the womens' rights, you are disregarding men's rights in the process (some of the pro-lifers gleefully so). There has to be a better way to approach it than that, you know?

until we can incubate a human outside of a human womb, i will always defer to a woman's right not to have a baby vs a man's right to have a baby inside a woman if their viewpoints contradict

id also have to wonder why it is that a man wants a child with a woman who really does not want one in those instances...
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
you still havent actually answered my question - what happens to the child if they cant be supported by the parents who have been forced to have this unwanted (or potentially non-viable) child

All kinds of things could happen. Damn read my post. There is no idea of how a certain persons life could unfold. It could be great, middle of the road or terrible.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
The bottomline is there has to be a cutoff otherwise it becomes barbaric.

there are cutoffs in almost all abortion laws - in many places you need the ok of at least 2 licensed medical professionals to have an abortion after 24 weeks gestation (late 2nd trimester - when the medical profession seems to have consensus on viability of the offspring outside the womb) - and often abortions at this stage or later are to do with the safety of the mother or the non-viability of the offspring
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
All kinds of things could happen. Damn read my post. There is no idea of how a certain persons life could unfold. It could be great, middle of the road or terrible.

right but you're still not answering the question - i want to know specifically what happens to all these extra humans who cant be provided for... does the state step in? does the government step in?

all their lives have opportunities - how are they to fulfil any promise they have if they arent provided for... and where does that provision come from?
answer that...
 

flynismo

Practice Squad
id also have to wonder why it is that a man wants a child with a woman who really does not want one in those instances...
For the same reason I talked my ex out of aborting our kid? We had already broken up when we found out she was pregnant. I'm financially, emotionally and otherwise fully capable of raising a child all on my own if need be.
And for what it's worth, a few years ago, she thanked me for it. She said she couldn't imagine her life without our child now.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
For the same reason I talked my ex out of aborting our kid? We had already broken up when we found out she was pregnant. I'm financially, emotionally and otherwise fully capable of raising a child all on my own if need be.
And for what it's worth, a few years ago, she thanked me for it. She said she couldn't imagine her life without our child now.

Well this explains your passion. Congrats bro!!
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
For the same reason I talked my ex out of aborting our kid? We had already broken up when we found out she was pregnant. I'm financially, emotionally and otherwise fully capable of raising a child all on my own if need be.
And for what it's worth, a few years ago, she thanked me for it. She said she couldn't imagine her life without our child now.

right but that didnt come out of an anti-abortion law, that came out of a discussion between the two of you where you came to a compromise that was acceptable for you specifically and im happy that it worked out for the two of you

but not everyone has the luxury of being amicable or having an equal relationship in the way you evidently did etc. toxic/abusive relationships are a big problem and if men have the ability to veto an abortion it becomes yet another thing that can perpetuate abusive relationships and trapping women etc.

i think your situation is a nice example of why you dont need laws for these things - where reasonable parties on good terms and in good faith can talk it out together is where you dont need to legislate
 

flynismo

Practice Squad
Well this explains your passion. Congrats bro!!
It sure does; and also why I stopped flip-flopping on the topic. Once it became real life decisions rather than a discussion piece, everything became blatantly obvious to me. And thanks! My heart is full from the years of raising my son.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
right but you're still not answering the question - i want to know specifically what happens to all these extra humans who cant be provided for... does the state step in? does the government step in?

all their lives have opportunities - how are they to fulfil any promise they have if they arent provided for... and where does that provision come from?
answer that...

The state does step in. Agency will designate a foster home where the road will then be set. Hopefully it turns out for the better but yes sometimes its not.
 

flynismo

Practice Squad
right but that didnt come out of an anti-abortion law, that came out of a discussion between the two of you where you came to a compromise that was acceptable for you specifically and im happy that it worked out for the two of you

but not everyone has the luxury of being amicable or having an equal relationship in the way you evidently did etc. toxic/abusive relationships are a big problem and if men have the ability to veto an abortion it becomes yet another thing that can perpetuate abusive relationships and trapping women etc.

i think your situation is a nice example of why you dont need laws for these things - where reasonable parties on good terms and in good faith can talk it out together is where you dont need to legislate

I can certainly understand why you make that assumption, but we were anything but amicable. Shit, I have stories to tell on that end, but that's for another thread. The news of her pregnancy came about a month after we split, so we were especially charged up emotionally at the time.

Rather than assuming the default negative position of "men are abusive shits who can use it to trap women", why not assume that most men are decent, moral people who have the right to have a voice in whether or not their child lives or dies? Because we can very easily flip that up and say that granting the power solely to women empowers them with the ability to trap men ("either we will be together or I'm having an abortion")
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
The state does step in. Agency will designate a foster home where the road will then be set. Hopefully it turns out for the better but yes sometimes its not.

so if the sanctity of every life is so important - why arent there better networks to adoption for these kids? why is it that for the political far-right and christian evangelicals that the sanctity of life and the need for government interference or regulation ends once the child leaves the womb?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I can certainly understand why you make that assumption, but we were anything but amicable. Shit, I have stories to tell on that end, but that's for another thread. The news of her pregnancy came about a month after we split, so we were especially charged up emotionally at the time.

Rather than assuming the default negative position of "men are abusive shits who can use it to trap women", why not assume that most men are decent, moral people who have the right to have a voice in whether or not their child lives or dies? Because we can very easily flip that up and say that granting the power solely to women empowers them with the ability to trap men ("either we will be together or I'm having an abortion")

well im glad that despite it not being amicable you guys were able to come to a compromise anyway

the problem with assuming that most men are decent is that there is a significant proportion of men who arent - and when there are moral men involved you'll likely find that you wont have these contradictory arguments as prolifically - moral men are reasonable and reasonable men are able to engage in healthy and honest discussion about abortion with their partner if it comes up - they dont need regulations to protect them

and obviously there's multiple dimensions to every situation and im slightly over-simplifying it but the general point is the same - who are you protecting and who are you impinging upon by legislating women's uteruses and their right to abortion - the answer is your demonstrably affecting a woman's rights to autonomy in those situations and for me that's where the line comes down - people can have their personal opinions or ideas about abortion but ultimately any abortion law needs to uphold the rights to autonomy that a woman should have or it becomes a civil rights issue
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
so if the sanctity of every life is so important - why arent there better networks to adoption for these kids? why is it that for the political far-right and christian evangelicals that the sanctity of life and the need for government interference or regulation ends once the child leaves the womb?

Social services take over and they're funded by the govt. Funding doesn't end until they're adopted.

well im glad that despite it not being amicable you guys were able to come to a compromise anyway

the problem with assuming that most men are decent is that there is a significant proportion of men who arent - and when there are moral men involved you'll likely find that you wont have these contradictory arguments as prolifically - moral men are reasonable and reasonable men are able to engage in healthy and honest discussion about abortion with their partner if it comes up - they dont need regulations to protect them

and obviously there's multiple dimensions to every situation and im slightly over-simplifying it but the general point is the same - who are you protecting and who are you impinging upon by legislating women's uteruses and their right to abortion - the answer is your demonstrably affecting a woman's rights to autonomy in those situations and for me that's where the line comes down - people can have their personal opinions or ideas about abortion but ultimately any abortion law needs to uphold the rights to autonomy that a woman should have or it becomes a civil rights issue

You must think all women are moral and angels.

All in all tho it should be about responsibility. Peace out for now.
 

flynismo

Practice Squad
well im glad that despite it not being amicable you guys were able to come to a compromise anyway

the problem with assuming that most men are decent is that there is a significant proportion of men who arent - and when there are moral men involved you'll likely find that you wont have these contradictory arguments as prolifically - moral men are reasonable and reasonable men are able to engage in healthy and honest discussion about abortion with their partner if it comes up - they dont need regulations to protect them

and obviously there's multiple dimensions to every situation and im slightly over-simplifying it but the general point is the same - who are you protecting and who are you impinging upon by legislating women's uteruses and their right to abortion - the answer is your demonstrably affecting a woman's rights to autonomy in those situations and for me that's where the line comes down - people can have their personal opinions or ideas about abortion but ultimately any abortion law needs to uphold the rights to autonomy that a woman should have or it becomes a civil rights issue

What is this significant portion of men who are immoral? Is that 1%, 5%, 50%? On what grounds do you make that claim? Are women any more moral than men? How do you know?


I consider myself a good person. I may not know you personally, but I my impression is that you are as well. And here we are, having a reasonable discussion about an important topic. That's easy to do. It is also easy to make the mistake of assuming that just because a man approaches a woman with reason, it means that she will respond in kind, given that there is history between the two people and real life implications from having the conversation. That is why regulations are needed; not everything is the man's fault, nor is the man always wrong and immoral.

If I had failed in my attempt to persuade my ex out of having the abortion, I would have had no recourse but to let her end the life of my son. Of course, nobody cares about the emotional anguish that would have put me through, or the possibility that would have turned me into one of these amoral women abusers you mentioned. So long as the woman does not have to endure the inconvenience of facing the consequences of her actions (she did know that unprotected sex leads to pregnancy, right?), that's what is important?

One of the credos that this country was built upon is, "it is better for a thousand guilty men to be set free than for one innocent man to be imprisoned."
A good man is a gift to this world. He should be protected.
 
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flynismo

Practice Squad
you still havent actually answered my question - what happens to the child if they cant be supported by the parents who have been forced to have this unwanted (or potentially non-viable) child

Considering all the social programs that we have available - Section 8, welfare, SNAP, etc., I'd find it hard to believe that two adults cannot figure out a way to support their child. Kids aren't THAT expensive. There are also a lot of single parents who just live at home with mom and dad and get along just fine.

This is off topic, but it's something that I really have a problem with in today's society. We go to great lengths to remove accountability from the people themselves and shift it elsewhere. Don't have a job? It isn't because you were up til 3am smoking weed and sending dick pics to Susan, it's because you're black and everyone is racist. Here, have some money. Your paycheck is smaller than the man's who works in the same department? It isn't because you got pregnant at 17 and have a young child at home to raise, which prevents you from working overtime, or even a full week; it's because society is sexist. Here, have some money. Same with abortion. It isn't your fault for getting pregnant because neither you nor your man used birth control of some kind, it's society's fault that abortion clinics aren't more readily available; and screw the man, if he doesn't want his child slaughtered, he should wear a rubber next time and not get you pregnant.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Considering all the social programs that we have available - Section 8, welfare, SNAP, etc., I'd find it hard to believe that two adults cannot figure out a way to support their child. Kids aren't THAT expensive. There are also a lot of single parents who just live at home with mom and dad and get along just fine.

This is off topic, but it's something that I really have a problem with in today's society. We go to great lengths to remove accountability from the people themselves and shift it elsewhere. Don't have a job? It isn't because you were up til 3am smoking weed and sending dick pics to Susan, it's because you're black and everyone is racist. Here, have some money. Your paycheck is smaller than the man's who works in the same department? It isn't because you got pregnant at 17 and have a young child at home to raise, which prevents you from working overtime, or even a full week; it's because society is sexist. Here, have some money. Same with abortion. It isn't your fault for getting pregnant because neither you nor your man used birth control of some kind, it's society's fault that abortion clinics aren't more readily available; and screw the man, if he doesn't want his child slaughtered, he should wear a rubber next time and not get you pregnant.

They're trying to turn the "Land of Oppurtunity" from individualism/earning your own way to govt guarantees and that's just straight up truth. The people will not be running this country soon cuz there's too much irresponsibilities and that the govt will know whats best for you.

In fact you know when women use that term " I want the govt to keep their hands off my body " but then they're willing to put their names and medical history out for them to see and sqwauk when the threat of their federal funds being removed.
 
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