The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

[Oldfaithful]

Also, unrelated but I meant to post this earlier.


@Lost_In_Translation this is why Jon Stewart's advice for people working for Congress is to (direct quote as best as I can remember) "not let the stink get on you". It's a bill getting funding for treatments for 9/11 first responders who got cancer because of what they had to breathe in while they were helping out on the scene. It's the most no-brainer of no-brainer bills and it's been stalling in Congress for years, so it's easy to see why he's gotten so cynical with the whole thing.

Most people who work for the government do 3-5 years there, get sick of the lack of pay, and then they go work in the private sector for a massive pay increase.

That’s my plan too lol

 

[rossihunter2]

Nonsense. It is written in the very tax code that small businesses got the tax relief, not just the corporate giants. It was very well publicized how many companies gave out significant bonuses, I shouldn't even need to cite them in a political discussion. You not knowing these things does not make those facts unsubstantiated.

i would very much like you to cite sources because despite the words "small businesses" being in some follow up bills that still havent seen the senate floor i have seen no evidence of these so-called bonuses, pay increases or tax relief for those small businesses...

and certainly ive seen no economic impact that helps to close the wealth inequality gap

Of course ANY tax cut is going to favor people more and more as they make more money. Low income families have no tax burden at all. They pay during the year and then get a fat refund check early each year. Those rich guys that you seem to resent so much are the ones paying the lions share of taxes. The top 1% pays MORE THAN THE BOTTOM 90% combined!
https://taxfoundation.org/summary-latest-federal-income-tax-data-2018-update/

firstly that link refers only to income tax, secondly it refers to the taxation system before trump's new cuts and despite saying 2018 update only hosts figures for up to 2016

and as to your points, the existence of billionaires is a social problem - they have earned more money than they and their families could reasonably spend without earning a dollar more for decades and decades even living at the most luxurious they could hope to live - but not only do they have more money than they could possibly ever spend or want to spend, they are also earning more than they could possibly hope to spend too - those rich guys should be paying the lions share of taxes in any sensible system of tax - and all trump has done is reduced the amount of tax income the government gets which reduces the amount that gets spent on low-income families through welfare etc. and that money that got saved mostly got put into stock buy-backs and not into bonuses etc.

So...you want to steal even more money from those evil rich people who already pay more than their fair share, and give it to people who did nothing to earn it? That's very Robin Hood-ish; and I'm too old for fairy tales.

Furthermore, I don't see this so called "wealth inequality" as a problem, since after all, we live in a capitalist society.

how is wealth inequality not a problem when there are people who are homeless and cant afford to eat enough and there are billionaires who have multiple life-times worth of money that they could never spend even if they tried to - i understand the capitalist idea that you get what you work for etc. and that made sense when the wealth inequality gap was much smaller but its not astronomically large and doesnt really work anymore

in current capitalist systems you dont make more money by working harder, you make more money by having more money to start with and leveraging the workforce to work for less - that's a broken system

and i dont want to steal money from the evil rich - ideally id like them to freely give it to those taxes given that they benefit from the country they live within and also that in an ideal world they would have made that much money because of a fair system that allowed them to get there - im not naive enough to think that's actually what happens but when youre that rich i really dont understand why you fight against higher tax rates so much

 

[Willbacker]

The part that is being left out, or perhaps purposely ignored, is that the manner in which Trump was conducting himself lead to certain groups feeling empowered.

That part, no matter what we say, no matter what I say or have been through, will never be addressed. Bashing a man and his intelligence because he spoke out against you in regards to your self awareness and the effects you have with what you say and how you say it is distasteful.

Children, CHILDREN, chanting build a wall to fellow students during class is an example. That is also a reality that his supporters refuse to acknowledge.

Again you are looking at one side of the spectrum. Sure it wasn't a nice thing to chant that and shouldn't have been done but all the staged walkouts and protests led by a lot of the teachers is again ok.

http://aurn.com/high-schoolers-stage-anti-trump-walkouts-trump-response-hate-incidents/

I guess its fair for people to be anti trump and use insulting signs and language against the president but kids that support him should just keep their mouths shut. Fact!! A lot more incidents of anti Trumpism in schools than a chant for build the wall. Kids don't always do the smartest but sometimes they get tired of listening to the rhetoric.

You also in your 2nd paragraph totally do not believe the president has 1st amendment rights and just should sit there and take it on the chin. See obviously in your paragraph you believe Trump is racist. The "fine people" even tho he condemned the neo-Nazis in that same speech but the media only harp on that one line. Did you listen to the whole interview or just taking what the media said? If not listen to the interview. Again Trump was racist for what he said about the NFL players. He cant be pro flag and pro military. It must only be cuz they're black right. At least that was the way it was spun. I mean he was even talking about their mothers. Believe me I heard that. "Mexicans are criminals and rapists". You show me where he said that or even said all or most. Again another narrative. He has said "Mexico is letting criminals and rapists across the border" or plainly "Criminals and rapists are coming across our borders". Let me give you a wake up call. Those are true statements!!! Crime does come across this border. Multitudes of it. If you need clarification I can make another post about it with details.

See I remember you saying the MAGA hat triggered you and that's a horse you shouldn't be riding. I mean was Trump racist while he was having a top rated show on the peacock channel. How come? When he was donating to the Clintons and the democratic party he was great. I can also show you articles about Romney or McCain being racist. Now the media loves McCain. The left/media drives a narrative and you are hooked line and sinker. Its fearmongering at its finest.

 

[Willbacker]

i would very much like you to cite sources because despite the words "small businesses" being in some follow up bills that still havent seen the senate floor i have see

i would very much like you to cite sources because despite the words "small businesses" being in some follow up bills that still havent seen the senate floor i have seen no evidence of these so-called bonuses, pay increases or tax relief for those small businesses...

and certainly ive seen no economic impact that helps to close the wealth inequality gap



firstly that link refers only to income tax, secondly it refers to the taxation system before trump's new cuts and despite saying 2018 update only hosts figures for up to 2016

and as to your points, the existence of billionaires is a social problem - they have earned more money than they and their families could reasonably spend without earning a dollar more for decades and decades even living at the most luxurious they could hope to live - but not only do they have more money than they could possibly ever spend or want to spend, they are also earning more than they could possibly hope to spend too - those rich guys should be paying the lions share of taxes in any sensible system of tax - and all trump has done is reduced the amount of tax income the government gets which reduces the amount that gets spent on low-income families through welfare etc. and that money that got saved mostly got put into stock buy-backs and not into bonuses etc.



how is wealth inequality not a problem when there are people who are homeless and cant afford to eat enough and there are billionaires who have multiple life-times worth of money that they could never spend even if they tried to - i understand the capitalist idea that you get what you work for etc. and that made sense when the wealth inequality gap was much smaller but its not astronomically large and doesnt really work anymore

in current capitalist systems you dont make more money by working harder, you make more money by having more money to start with and leveraging the workforce to work for less - that's a broken system

and i dont want to steal money from the evil rich - ideally id like them to freely give it to those taxes given that they benefit from the country they live within and also that in an ideal world they would have made that much money because of a fair system that allowed them to get there - im not naive enough to think that's actually what happens but when youre that rich i really dont understand why you fight against higher tax rates so much

https://www.thebalancesmb.com/can-small-business-benefit-from-trump-tax-cuts-4178336

The "small corporations/LLC's have lots of benefits and we have also had a 3% increase in wages which is substansial shows the tax cuts are helping. The bonuses fly is talking about were one time and I consider a little paltry in the big picture (this was done by a lot of companies) but it was appreciated by workers. Free money is free money and can be used in a variety of ways. My job just gave us about a year ago nice new electric jacks which made my job tons easier than using pumpjacks and my opinion is tax cuts helped us get these. Businesses can spend more on equipment/improvements which helps the employee. It just does. Also with the buybacks of stocks it is a good thing cuz shareholders have too much of a say in profits which affects how a business is run.

Where it comes to the wealth gap there's just more money out there but I agree with you that it is a bigger gain for the wealthy cuz of this. Thing is there's a catch and catch to trying to tax the wealthy. They could park their money overseas benefitting other countries and of course they could try to stay below the threshold of a certain number to avoid a tax increase. Redistribution is also not the answer since it would definitely curtail investing, researching, expansion and wage increases. What they need to do is get rid of charity deductions which is still being highly used by the rich but of course yet again there could be ramifications cuz there could be less donations but really charity should be from the heart and not a tax deduction. This is why there should be a flat tax. It could be a little higher for the super wealthy but we cant be crazy about it. Got to remember which you might not know is we not only have federal tax but state and local taxes, capital gains tax, property tax, sales taxes. I mean we got a shitload of taxes.

Capitalism in its true form does provide a lot for the rich but it also provides oppurtunities for the poor in a free society. As long as you work hard and use good judgement in a capitalistic society you can make a great life for yourself. Nose to the grindstone.

 

[Somerset Ravens]

[QUOTE="rossihunter2, post: 174579

in current capitalist systems you dont make more money by working harder, you make more money by having more money to start with and leveraging the workforce to work for less - that's a broken system


Do you seriously believe that?

 

[gtalk12]

Again you are looking at one side of the spectrum. Sure it wasn't a nice thing to chant that and shouldn't have been done but all the staged walkouts and protests led by a lot of the teachers is again ok.

http://aurn.com/high-schoolers-stage-anti-trump-walkouts-trump-response-hate-incidents/

I guess its fair for people to be anti trump and use insulting signs and language against the president but kids that support him should just keep their mouths shut. Fact!! A lot more incidents of anti Trumpism in schools than a chant for build the wall. Kids don't always do the smartest but sometimes they get tired of listening to the rhetoric.

You also in your 2nd paragraph totally do not believe the president has 1st amendment rights and just should sit there and take it on the chin. See obviously in your paragraph you believe Trump is racist. The "fine people" even tho he condemned the neo-Nazis in that same speech but the media only harp on that one line. Did you listen to the whole interview or just taking what the media said? If not listen to the interview. Again Trump was racist for what he said about the NFL players. He cant be pro flag and pro military. It must only be cuz they're black right. At least that was the way it was spun. I mean he was even talking about their mothers. Believe me I heard that. "Mexicans are criminals and rapists". You show me where he said that or even said all or most. Again another narrative. He has said "Mexico is letting criminals and rapists across the border" or plainly "Criminals and rapists are coming across our borders". Let me give you a wake up call. Those are true statements!!! Crime does come across this border. Multitudes of it. If you need clarification I can make another post about it with details.

See I remember you saying the MAGA hat triggered you and that's a horse you shouldn't be riding. I mean was Trump racist while he was having a top rated show on the peacock channel. How come? When he was donating to the Clintons and the democratic party he was great. I can also show you articles about Romney or McCain being racist. Now the media loves McCain. The left/media drives a narrative and you are hooked line and sinker. Its fearmongering at its finest.

Address what I am saying, personally do I think Trump is racist? No. However, how he is choosing to speak does empower those with strong feelings about race etc.

"sure it wasn't a nice thing to chant" to which you proceed to immediately talk about staged walk outs. Listen, when it comes to this climate I am in no way shape or form interested in "sides" I am not a democrat or a liberal which seems to be the hot word of the last few years.

The reality, MY reality, is that there is a president who does not know how to conduct himself under fire. Does the president have the right to defend himself? Of course, say whatever you want. That being said, just because you can does not mean you should. Is that not a conservative thought in itself?

Every time I bring up a reality that minorities face in this country it is completely dismissed. You, nor your children, will ever have to worry about being approached and told to go back to Africa, you will never have children cheering "build a wall" to other children SIMPLY for being Hispanic/latino regardless of actually being born on US soil.

The red hat is triggering, I have had several of my friends (all black) approached and called *you know what*

 

[rossihunter2]

[QUOTE="rossihunter2, post: 174579

in current capitalist systems you dont make more money by working harder, you make more money by having more money to start with and leveraging the workforce to work for less - that's a broken system


Do you seriously believe that?

yes - why would i not believe that?

 

[Willbacker]

Address what I am saying, personally do I think Trump is racist? No. However, how he is choosing to speak does empower those with strong feelings about race etc.

"sure it wasn't a nice thing to chant" to which you proceed to immediately talk about staged walk outs. Listen, when it comes to this climate I am in no way shape or form interested in "sides" I am not a democrat or a liberal which seems to be the hot word of the last few years.

The reality, MY reality, is that there is a president who does not know how to conduct himself under fire. Does the president have the right to defend himself? Of course, say whatever you want. That being said, just because you can does not mean you should. Is that not a conservative thought in itself?

Every time I bring up a reality that minorities face in this country it is completely dismissed. You, nor your children, will ever have to worry about being approached and told to go back to Africa, you will never have children cheering "build a wall" to other children SIMPLY for being Hispanic/latino regardless of actually being born on US soil.

The red hat is triggering, I have had several of my friends (all black) approached and called *you know what*

People also don't like being called racist and that word just thrown around at everything and are you saying people wearing MAGA hats are going around using the n word. I can show you a lot of videos and instances of people wearing that hat being attacked for no reason. For one instance the Covington kids.

I consider a white racist a democrat. Who formed them and what kind of govt would they like to see? I can tell you they're into socialist policies except its for their own kind. There's not a conservative bone in their body.

 

[Somerset Ravens]

yes - why would i not believe that?

Because if you work harder ( which includes improving your skill set ) you will increase your value
and you will be rewarded for it. Businesses realize that their employees are the ones who make
the business successful. Companies realize that keeping their productive employees happy is good business.

 

[rossihunter2]

Because if you work harder ( which includes improving your skill set ) you will increase your value
and you will be rewarded for it. Businesses realize that their employees are the ones who make
the business successful. Companies realize that keeping their productive employees happy is good business.

thats how it should work but it doesnt work like that at all

 

[Somerset Ravens]

thats how it should work but it doesnt work like that at all

What do you base that on? Do you have much experience in the business world?

 

[gtalk12]

People also don't like being called racist and that word just thrown around at everything and are you saying people wearing MAGA hats are going around using the n word. I can show you a lot of videos and instances of people wearing that hat being attacked for no reason. For one instance the Covington kids.

I consider a white racist a democrat. Who formed them and what kind of govt would they like to see? I can tell you they're into socialist policies except its for their own kind. There's not a conservative bone in their body.

Happy fathers day by the way.

This is exactly what I am talking about though, you keep bringing up Democrats as if that has anything to do with what I am saying. I don't give a fuck what party does what. It is all the same to me. Fuck the democrats, fuck the Republicans, and fuck whatever party you can name that does not have Americas BEST interests in mind.

Again, Trump may not be racist, but the way he talks does indeed give courage who see themselves above minorities. Why is that very statement so difficult for any Trump fan to admit? This isn't coming from a bozo liberal who just feels like attacking a president just because.

I tell you what is going on at the ground level, what we the people are trying to do and feel, and you immediately bring up another party as if I find shelter there.


Are you racist? No. You are however dismissive. Very dismissive.

 

[flynismo]

Happy father's day everyone. I'm sure you socialists and commies can appreciate the fact I'd like everyone to have an equally fulfilling day with the fam

 

[cobrajet]

I am not going to change anyone’s mind in this thread, but I did want to give my strong opinion on separating kids from adults at the border.....notice I didn’t say parents. These border jumpers are grabbing kids left and right. Human trafficking is a major problem!!!!! So many of these kids are being mistreated and abused!!!!! We better damn well separate these kids from the adults when they come across our border, before they are raped, sodomized, and abused. You don’t take any chances with that shit!!!! We have a moral obligation to make damn sure that the people bringing these little kids across our border are their rightful lawful children and they were not put in harm’s way by someone victimizing them to get into this country. I am so sick of people screaming about children being separated at the border, because you know this shit is happening!!!! You don’t fuck around with the safety of children!!!! If they get traumatized because they are separated until DNA tests can prove who they belong to, so be it. We don’t risk child abuse and child rape in this country!!!! Sorry if anyone is offended by that, I hate child abuse with a passion and I always want us to error on the side of caution with every single child that is illegally brought over our border.

 

[Willbacker]

Happy fathers day by the way.

This is exactly what I am talking about though, you keep bringing up Democrats as if that has anything to do with what I am saying. I don't give a fuck what party does what. It is all the same to me. Fuck the democrats, fuck the Republicans, and fuck whatever party you can name that does not have Americas BEST interests in mind.

Again, Trump may not be racist, but the way he talks does indeed give courage who see themselves above minorities. Why is that very statement so difficult for any Trump fan to admit? This isn't coming from a bozo liberal who just feels like attacking a president just because.

I tell you what is going on at the ground level, what we the people are trying to do and feel, and you immediately bring up another party as if I find shelter there.


Are you racist? No. You are however dismissive. Very dismissive.

You keep talking about the way he talks. How about the way he is portrayed or how about any minorities that sides with Trump is called a prop. This is not a one way street. Building a wall is for the security of our country and no it shouldn't be used as any sort of chant against minorities. This is not being dismissive. This is supporting my president who has turned over rocks which has exposed all the snakes that are crawling underneath. Its called the swamp. This includes both sides of the aisle but its one side that keeps calling the other racist. This is why I have to keep bringing up the democrats. You think I do it for no damn reason?

Have a happy fathers day too gtalk. I can tell you're a good man but a step back is needed to get the big picture.

 

[Willbacker]

I am not going to change anyone’s mind in this thread, but I did want to give my strong opinion on separating kids from adults at the border.....notice I didn’t say parents. These border jumpers are grabbing kids left and right. Human trafficking is a major problem!!!!! So many of these kids are being mistreated and abused!!!!! We better damn well separate these kids from the adults when they come across our border, before they are raped, sodomized, and abused. You don’t take any chances with that shit!!!! We have a moral obligation to make damn sure that the people bringing these little kids across our border are their rightful lawful children and they were not put in harm’s way by someone victimizing them to get into this country. I am so sick of people screaming about children being separated at the border, because you know this shit is happening!!!! You don’t fuck around with the safety of children!!!! If they get traumatized because they are separated until DNA tests can prove who they belong to, so be it. We don’t risk child abuse and child rape in this country!!!! Sorry if anyone is offended by that, I hate child abuse with a passion and I always want us to error on the side of caution with every single child that is illegally brought over our border.

You're 100% correct and its not only the children but women getting raped or put into prostitution to pay off debts. This don't only happen here but also in Europe. DNA tests have proven these are not real families but the media doesn't talk about it and its a damn shame.

 

[flynismo]

You're 100% correct and its not only the children but women getting raped or put into prostitution to pay off debts. This don't only happen here but also in Europe. DNA tests have proven these are not real families but the media doesn't talk about it and its a damn shame.

That's why they are fake news

 

[Ellicottraven]

Happy father's day everyone. I'm sure you socialists and commies can appreciate the fact I'd like everyone to have an equally fulfilling day with the fam

Don't forget all the 'Cult'ies @flynismo! lol! Happy Father's day to all the forum members!

 

[flynismo]

Don't forget all the 'Cult'ies @flynismo! lol! Happy Father's day to all the forum members!

Excuse me sir, but we are making fathers day great again

We REALLY need to update these emojis....

 

[52520Andrew]

Happy fathers day by the way.

This is exactly what I am talking about though, you keep bringing up Democrats as if that has anything to do with what I am saying. I don't give a fuck what party does what. It is all the same to me. Fuck the democrats, fuck the Republicans, and fuck whatever party you can name that does not have Americas BEST interests in mind.

Again, Trump may not be racist, but the way he talks does indeed give courage who see themselves above minorities. Why is that very statement so difficult for any Trump fan to admit? This isn't coming from a bozo liberal who just feels like attacking a president just because.

I tell you what is going on at the ground level, what we the people are trying to do and feel, and you immediately bring up another party as if I find shelter there.


Are you racist? No. You are however dismissive. Very dismissive.

Donald Trump could walk outside and do something unspeakable with 100% proof and schmucks like Hannity would find a way to blame the Democrats.

I remember after Sandy how right wing media kept trying to push it as "Obama's Katrina". I find that kinda funny since these same people downplayed Katrina as the aftermath played out and made people out like they were blaming Bush for the hurricane. Did the same thing with the mess that is Maria. Finally got funding through to help recovery efforts there and with Harvey and Michael after Republicans tried to hold it hostage for border wall money. Remember how under Obama those unemployment numbers were all fudged and now if anything they are saying too many people are unemployed? Or should we go back to how they kept pushing for war in Iraq(sorry, meant "Operation Iraqi Freedom")? None of them will have any accountability for that, will just blame the democrats. Now they are trying to push a war with Iran. But of course this is all the "No spin zone" "real news" right? Give me a break.

Rant over.

General post for everyone below

I think a lot of this thread is us going back and forth trying to convince each other which party is worse than the other. I don't vote for not as bad as the other side and voted 3rd party in 2016 for this exact reason. Let's make this a place where we can discuss our own ideas instead of which party is slightly less worse than the other. So without further ado, what would you all do to solve this current illegal immigration problem? Are you happy with how things currently are? Or do you have an idea that can be a long term solution or at least provide help?