The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

[Oldfaithful]

this isn't true at all. Yes, you do have some people who work under 5 years for the government, but you have a large amount of people who work a lifetime for the government because of the damn good pension they have.

If you're working for the Department of State, DOD, or an intelligence agency... That's true. That's about it.

Average life expectancy for a typical analyst whether it be in the Senate, House, White House, Judicial Branch, Library of Congress, Capitol Police(most of them go to private enterprise), etc. There is a reason so many of them go to the private sector. The salary unless you're a lawyer, doctor(for a military hospital), isn't nearly as good for the hours you're working. There are scholarly sources that prove my point to be true, even with the DOS, DOD, or an intelligence agency. Yes, you'll have some lifers, notice how I said most. You get vested for a pension after 3 years.... Think about that. You can fund your IRAs or 401Ks better in the private sector... Considerably better.

Yes, the pension is good. But most of the people who are lifers are your high-level security clearance members, most in which make 6 figures on top of that pension. The others? Not so much. Turnover is ridiculous in the public.

Other people work "for" the government as consultants, or fellows, but they're not paid by the government, they work for a private company. Booze Allen Hamilton, Deloitte, etc. etc. Along with private intelligence agencies, private defense contractors, manufacturers.

Yeah, there's a large amount of government workers that stay.... But over double that amount leave after 5 years, but still work closely with the government. Like I said, average lifespan... 3-5 years. Half of the people who I worked for are already gone and I've been out for 2 months. They either they quit, or the private sector comes knocking with a fat paycheck. Most people I knew in Howard Country... Ex-government. Make triple that in the private sector.

If they're staying longer than the 5... It's not for the pension either. There's a really good chance that they're doing it to pay off student debt. The government forgives your loans after ten years if you never miss a payment. The pension is enticing, yes, but to think that's the primary driver for most of these lifers is no. Most of them get promoted to high paying positions in the intelligence community, military, etc, etc, etc.

The ridiculously high turnover also contributes to nothing getting done. Not only are they hiring kids... But these new people have to play catch up.

 

[Tank]

If you're working for the Department of State, DOD, or an intelligence agency... That's true. That's about it.

Average life expectancy for a typical analyst whether it be in the Senate, House, White House, Judicial Branch, Library of Congress, Capitol Police(most of them go to private enterprise), etc. There is a reason so many of them go to the private sector. The salary unless you're a lawyer, doctor(for a military hospital), isn't nearly as good for the hours you're working. There are scholarly sources that prove my point to be true, even with the DOS, DOD, or an intelligence agency. Yes, you'll have some lifers, notice how I said most. You get vested for a pension after 3 years.... Think about that. You can fund your IRAs or 401Ks better in the private sector... Considerably better.

Yes, the pension is good. But most of the people who are lifers are your high-level security clearance members, most in which make 6 figures on top of that pension. The others? Not so much. Turnover is ridiculous in the public.

Other people work "for" the government as consultants, or fellows, but they're not paid by the government, they work for a private company. Booze Allen Hamilton, Deloitte, etc. etc. Along with private intelligence agencies, private defense contractors, manufacturers.

Yeah, there's a large amount of government workers that stay.... But over double that amount leave after 5 years, but still work closely with the government. Like I said, average lifespan... 3-5 years. Half of the people who I worked for are already gone and I've been out for 2 months. They either they quit, or the private sector comes knocking with a fat paycheck. Most people I knew in Howard Country... Ex-government. Make triple that in the private sector.

If they're staying longer than the 5... It's not for the pension either. There's a really good chance that they're doing it to pay off student debt. The government forgives your loans after ten years if you never miss a payment. The pension is enticing, yes, but to think that's the primary driver for most of these lifers is no. Most of them get promoted to high paying positions in the intelligence community, military, etc, etc, etc.

The ridiculously high turnover also contributes to nothing getting done. Not only are they hiring kids... But these new people have to play catch up.

I think the turnover is high in the legislative branch due to many jobs being tied to particular politicians. Executive and judicial branches tend to have many more career employees.

Federal 401k(TSP) is actually very competitive with the private sector. 1% automatic, matching 3% and half of the next 1%. Also the withdrawal options are now extremely flexible.

You aren’t going to become independently wealthy being a lifelong fed, but there’s decent opportunity to have a profitable career and comfortable retirement.

 

[Oldfaithful]

I think the turnover is high in the legislative branch due to many jobs being tied to particular politicians. Executive and judicial branches tend to have many more career employees.

Federal 401k(TSP) is actually very competitive with the private sector. 1% automatic, matching 3% and half of the next 1%. Also the withdrawal options are now extremely flexible.

You aren’t going to become independently wealthy being a lifelong fed, but there’s decent opportunities to have a profitable career and comfortable retirement.

Judicial branch yes, because those guys are at no risk of losing their jobs, but a lot of those jobs get cleared in the executive every 4-8 years. Doesn't matter who the President is, the board gets cleared unless you're damn good. Then the White House will keep you around regardless of who the President is. The only "lifers" in the legislative branch are Chiefs of Staff typically, and even then they tend to transition to the private sector when they get the chance. The pay is much better, and once again if you're a federal government worker you get vested 3 years in. Leaving isn't that much of a risk.

There are people who are lifers, and the pension is way better in the public sector(unless you work at a partnership. In that case the % of the pension in the public sector is technically better, but those guys in partnerships make so much money anyways that their pension is still woth more anually), but there's a reason why so many, if not an easy majority leave after 3-5 years, 10 at the most. Including some police(those who stay either make detective, small majority, or get a desk job), firefighters, and employees of federal agencies.)

 

[RavensMania]

If you're working for the Department of State, DOD, or an intelligence agency... That's true. That's about it.

Average life expectancy for a typical analyst whether it be in the Senate, House, White House, Judicial Branch, Library of Congress, Capitol Police(most of them go to private enterprise), etc. There is a reason so many of them go to the private sector. The salary unless you're a lawyer, doctor(for a military hospital), isn't nearly as good for the hours you're working. There are scholarly sources that prove my point to be true, even with the DOS, DOD, or an intelligence agency. Yes, you'll have some lifers, notice how I said most. You get vested for a pension after 3 years.... Think about that. You can fund your IRAs or 401Ks better in the private sector... Considerably better.

Yes, the pension is good. But most of the people who are lifers are your high-level security clearance members, most in which make 6 figures on top of that pension. The others? Not so much. Turnover is ridiculous in the public.

Other people work "for" the government as consultants, or fellows, but they're not paid by the government, they work for a private company. Booze Allen Hamilton, Deloitte, etc. etc. Along with private intelligence agencies, private defense contractors, manufacturers.

Yeah, there's a large amount of government workers that stay.... But over double that amount leave after 5 years, but still work closely with the government. Like I said, average lifespan... 3-5 years. Half of the people who I worked for are already gone and I've been out for 2 months. They either they quit, or the private sector comes knocking with a fat paycheck. Most people I knew in Howard Country... Ex-government. Make triple that in the private sector.

If they're staying longer than the 5... It's not for the pension either. There's a really good chance that they're doing it to pay off student debt. The government forgives your loans after ten years if you never miss a payment. The pension is enticing, yes, but to think that's the primary driver for most of these lifers is no. Most of them get promoted to high paying positions in the intelligence community, military, etc, etc, etc.

The ridiculously high turnover also contributes to nothing getting done. Not only are they hiring kids... But these new people have to play catch up.

I have a good friend that worked for the Census Bureau for over 30 years, a neighbor who was in HR / Personnel, several friends who worked over 20 years and some for 30 yrs at the FDA, among several clients who worked all over the government. Youre just way off base.

That was just a small sample size of the many many many who have worked there since college. Many was their first job out of school. Maybe it is like this outside of this region, but in the DMV its not like that and yes, I'm talking about people who are paid by the government, not consultants.

The private sector very rarely has a pension. VERY RARELY!!!!!!!! Most companies changed from a guaranteed pension to employees where they took all the risk and gave the risk to the employee when they went to the 401k. There aren't many Pension plans Defined Benefit and Cash Balance plans around anymore.

 

[Tank]

Judicial branch yes, because those guys are at no risk of losing their jobs, but a lot of those jobs get cleared in the executive every 4-8 years. Doesn't matter who the President is, the board gets cleared unless you're damn good. Then the White House will keep you around regardless of who the President is. The only "lifers" in the legislative branch are Chiefs of Staff typically, and even then they tend to transition to the private sector when they get the chance. The pay is much better, and once again if you're a federal government worker you get vested 3 years in. Leaving isn't that much of a risk.

There are people who are lifers, and the pension is way better in the public sector(unless you work at a partnership. In that case the % of the pension in the public sector is technically better, but those guys in partnerships make so much money anyways that their pension is still woth more anually), but there's a reason why so many, if not an easy majority leave after 3-5 years, 10 at the most. Including some police(those who stay either make detective, small majority, or get a desk job), firefighters, and employees of federal agencies.)

Executive branch is a much wider spectrum than what I think you are looking at. HHS, DOL, Interior, FDA, GSA, etc., etc.. Majority of the folks are life long feds.

 

[Oldfaithful]

I have a good friend that worked for the Census Bureau for over 30 years, a neighbor who was in HR / Personnel, several friends who worked over 20 years and some for 30 yrs at the FDA, among several clients who worked all over the government. Youre just way off base.

That was just a small sample size of the many many many who have worked there since college. Many was their first job out of school. Maybe it is like this outside of this region, but in the DMV its not like that.

And that's not the case anymore. They went in at a different time. The workforce isn't the same thing it was 30 years ago. That may have been true even 10 years ago, but most people my generation and for the Millenials are leaving after 3-5 years. The federal government has become a lot different for my generation. I doubt many of the people in the millenials and Gen Z are going to be similar given how quickly they've been known to change careers. Hell, for most Millenials that has been the case. Gen Z is just starting to get into the workforce. Saying I'm off base is just ignoring certain parts of the data.

Executive branch is a much wider spectrum than what I think you are looking at. HHS, DOL, Interior, FDA, GSA, etc., etc.. Majority of the folks are life long feds.

I was accounting for those. I have connections at the FDA, Interior, and the DOL. Majority of those that they keep are damn good and get paid a damn good salary. Vast majority of the people in the DMV that work for the federal government don't get paid the money those get paid.

 

[RavensMania]

Executive branch is a much wider spectrum than what I think you are looking at. HHS, DOL, Interior, FDA, GSA, etc., etc.. Majority of the folks are life long feds.

exactly!

 

[RavensMania]

And that's not the case anymore. They went in at a different time. The workforce isn't the same thing it was 30 years ago. That may have been true even 10 years ago, but most people my generation and for the Millenials are leaving after 3-5 years. The federal government has become a lot different for my generation. I doubt many of the people in the millenials and Gen Z are going to be similar given how quickly they've been known to change careers. Hell, for most Millenials that has been the case. Gen Z is just starting to get into the workforce. Saying I'm off base is just ignoring certain parts of the data.



I was accounting for those. I have connections at the FDA, Interior, and the DOL. Majority of those that they keep are damn good and get paid a damn good salary. Vast majority of the people in the DMV that work for the federal government don't get paid the money those get paid.

The private sector very rarely has a pension. VERY RARELY!!!!!!!! Most companies changed from a guaranteed pension to employees where they took all the risk and gave the risk to the employee when they went to the 401k. There aren't many Pension plans Defined Benefit and Cash Balance plans around anymore.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you'll have a pension. Rarely happens anymore in the private sector, you have to create your own and they aren't guaranteed. Sure you have a very good chance of having a higher salary, but in the end the turtle beats the hair in most races.

 

[Oldfaithful]

exactly!

Most people don't understand that the executive branch alone employs around 4 million people. It's massive and goes beyond the President.

My point still stands

 

[Oldfaithful]

The private sector very rarely has a pension. VERY RARELY!!!!!!!! Most companies changed from a guaranteed pension to employees where they took all the risk and gave the risk to the employee when they went to the 401k. There aren't many Pension plans Defined Benefit and Cash Balance plans around anymore.

Don't fool yourself into thinking you'll have a pension. Rarely happens anymore, you have to create your own and they aren't guaranteed. Sure you have a very good chance of having a higher salary, but in the end the turtle beats the hair in most races.

I know that the private sector rarely has a pension. I said that in a previous post. Unless you work in a partnership(not a company) you seldom get one. And even in a partnership, if you yourself are not a partner, your pension sucks. The difference is they get paid much more and lots of those private sector types though, from my understanding are smart with their 401Ks and IRAs, exploiting the loophole of you being able to transfer to your IRA to your Roth to prevent taxable income yada yada. Sure you have idiots but for the most part they also retire very comfortably.

You're vested after three years in the federal government. That's all I'm saying.

 

[RavensMania]

Most people don't understand that the executive branch alone employs around 4 million people. It's massive and goes beyond the President.

My point still stands

I'm not saying all employees stick around, but a very large amount do stick around for a long time. They not only like the pension, but the health benefits that they retire with. That is a huge benefit and shouldn't be thought of lightly in any circumstance.

 

[Oldfaithful]

I'm not saying all employees stick around, but a very large amount do stick around for a long time. They not only like the pension, but the health benefits that they retire with. That is a huge benefit and shouldn't be thought of lightly in any circumstance.

Maybe 40%. Most do leave though, especially from Millenials and Gen Z.

Pension is a big reason I'm considering putting my three years in. Which Gen Z and Millenials don't really consider fwiw

 

[RavensMania]

I know that the private sector rarely has a pension. I said that in a previous post. Unless you work in a partnership(not a company) you seldom get one. And even in a partnership, if you yourself are not a partner, your pension sucks. The difference is they get paid much more and lots of those private sector types though, from my understanding are smart with their 401Ks and IRAs, exploiting the loophole of you being able to transfer to your IRA to your Roth to prevent taxable income yada yada. Sure you have idiots but for the most part they also retire very comfortably.

You're vested after three years in the federal government. That's all I'm saying.

401ks fees average around 2.5 to 3.5% per year and if you check out DALBAR's the actual return of the Dow Jones from January 1st 2000 to know is 4% per year, before fees and taxes. Those are the actual returns, not your average returns what financial advisors say you are making. An average doesn't equal the actuals because an average doesn't take into account negatives. The market drops once every three years on average and from 2000-2011 the market had three drops exceed 90% total. To get back to even you have to have 900% gains to equal zero. DALBAR, Inc. is the financial community’s leading independent expert for evaluating, auditing. That's before fees and taxes and inflation. Inflation was also 2% during that time frame. Every client thinks they are making more money, until they pull out there statements and I can show them they aren't and show them the fees they didn't think they had. Averages or not ACTUAL gains.
BTW, mutual funds are the trash of Wall Street.

You've entered my arena Dave. Don't argue with me when discussing financials.

btw, your better off just having a ROTH Ira, because deferring that tax when you start accessing your 401k or IRA will cost you tremendously. Taxes will have to go up sometime and when you get older your taxes will be much higher. Thus taking your income through those RMD's will only keep your income higher. Your better off just doing a ROTH IRA so you don't need to pay taxes later. Pay the taxes on the seeds rather than the harvest. It's what I tell everyone of my clients, especially those that believe taxes will be higher in the future.

 

[Oldfaithful]

401ks fees average around 2.5 to 3.5% per year and if you check out DALBAR's the actual return of the Dow Jones from January 1st 2000 to know is 4% per year, before fees and taxes. Those are the actual returns, not your average returns what financial advisors say you are making. An average doesn't equal the actuals because an average doesn't take into account negatives. The market drops once every three years on average and from 2000-2011 the market had three drops exceed 90% total. To get back to even you have to have 900% gains to equal zero.

The last 20 years according to DALBAR the actual investor made 3.18% per year in equity mutual funds. BTW, mutual funds are the trash of wall street. That's before fees and taxes and inflation. Inflation was also 2% during that time frame.

You've entered my arena Dave. Don't argue with me when discussing financials.

btw, your better off just having a ROTH Ira, because deferring that tax when you start accessing your 401k or IRA will cost you tremendously. Taxes will have to go up sometime and when you get older your taxes will be much higher. Thus taking your income through those RMD's will only keep your income higher. Your better off just doing a ROTH IRA so you don't need to pay taxes later.

Except for the fact that I'm not arguing with you. You do realize that I've acknowledged that you're correct. A federal pension is usually much better than whatever a business can give you from a pure percentage point. Even if they do offer a pension. Unless you are a partner in a partnership, they tend not to be worth it anyways. And I know a ROTH IRA is a better idea than a 401k. You yourself told me that two years ago. If you are smart about it though, you can still have a very very comfortable retirement with a career in the private sector.

I'm not arguing with you. Believe it or not I know that. The pension in the public sector is excellent. It's why I'm considering going in for my three years. Most cops that are there for 30+ years(though that's a hilariously small amount), get out at 55 for a reason despite barely making more than median household income on average.

A tortise beats the hare, but a giraffe runs at a 25 mph pace and can keep it up for 5 hours. I like that plan instead. It's good to have a good divide.

I get vested after 3-5 years, if I get paid six figures by some agency as an analyst, 10, get the pension, go to the private sector.

It's what a lot of government lawyers do. They get their loans forgiven after ten years, plus the pension, a damn near guaranteed $120,000 a year salary, move to the private sector in the corporate world. Make more money up front. Best of both worlds

 

[RavensMania]

Maybe 40%. Most do leave though, especially from Millenials and Gen Z.

Pension is a big reason I'm considering putting my three years in. Which Gen Z and Millenials don't really consider fwiw

40% is damn good.


3 yrs isn't going to do much but I understand where you are coming from. That being said, FUCK tax deferred money

 

[Oldfaithful]

40% is damn good.

It is, but that means most still leave.

 

[Tank]

And that's not the case anymore. They went in at a different time. The workforce isn't the same thing it was 30 years ago. That may have been true even 10 years ago, but most people my generation and for the Millenials are leaving after 3-5 years. The federal government has become a lot different for my generation. I doubt many of the people in the millenials and Gen Z are going to be similar given how quickly they've been known to change careers. Hell, for most Millenials that has been the case. Gen Z is just starting to get into the workforce. Saying I'm off base is just ignoring certain parts of the data.

You’re spot on here. Millennials have historically changed jobs like most change underwear lol, and that’s not necessarily a good thing. Employers including the Fed are becoming more selective and requiring commitments, especially from those who get education assistance. I also think many of that generation are learning that there may be a more profitable and better path to success through loyalty to an employer be it public or private.

 

[RavensMania]

It is, but that means most still leave.

yes, but that really isn't what you were saying now is it. Sure most say but a large percentage have a very nice pension and that means they stayed. 40% in my books would be a very good percentage, kind of like 3 out of 10 is a pretty good batting average.

 

[Tank]

It is, but that means most still leave.

I think you mean to say many new hires leave. Life long employees are still the majority.

 

[Oldfaithful]

yes, but that really isn't what you were saying now is it. Sure most say but a large percentage have a very nice pension and that means they stayed. 40% in my books would be a very good percentage, kind of like 3 out of 10 is a pretty good batting average.

what I was saying is that most leave. That's still true by that metric. Even then, most of that 40% comes from the boomers to Gen X. That's about to change, and believe me, that's not a good thing. High turnover is only going to make the political climate worse. Ten years ago you'd be correct. There's a reason why a lot of "lifers" are leaving now, and sadly they are