• Welcome to PurpleFlock! Be sure to sign up here so that you can chat with your fellow Ravens fans.

The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I'm thinking by your post that you're saying govt funding pays private companies as it is. You made me do some reseach tho and just to show how fearmongering can take so much out of context. We should agree Reuters is neutral.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-trump-britain-health-idUSKCN1T51Z1

As for the EU I have to disagree since I remember Juncker saying Britain was gonna regret leaving. I'm sure they're cutting Britain no slack.

firstly - those comments by trump are well reported - it is not fearmongering as there is literally nothing in those statements that suggests that Trump wouldnt want access for american companies - lobby groups which have often formed policy language in the last 3 years in america have asserted that they want the ability to capitalise and be competitive in british markets in any future trade deal - on top of that i dont believe a word that ever comes out of boris johnson, theresa may or donald trump's mouth - and there have been leaked documents about a future trade deal where the NHS is very clearly a subject matter

i dont know what you've read that suggests that ive been subject to fearmongering when ive made a perfectly clear statement about US interests in our NHS and the interests of our conservative party and current government in privatising it

as for the EU - he's right, we are going to regret leaving, and they absolutely shouldnt politically offer us any slack as i suggested in my previous post - they have 27 other countries to worry about before playing nice with the UK in any deal especially when the demands of the last 2 governments have ben outlandish and not attractive to the EU + on top of that there's the whole issue of a hard border in ireland which would potentially facilitate a return to the troubles
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
firstly - those comments by trump are well reported - it is not fearmongering as there is literally nothing in those statements that suggests that Trump wouldnt want access for american companies - lobby groups which have often formed policy language in the last 3 years in america have asserted that they want the ability to capitalise and be competitive in british markets in any future trade deal - on top of that i dont believe a word that ever comes out of boris johnson, theresa may or donald trump's mouth - and there have been leaked documents about a future trade deal where the NHS is very clearly a subject matter

i dont know what you've read that suggests that ive been subject to fearmongering when ive made a perfectly clear statement about US interests in our NHS and the interests of our conservative party and current government in privatising it

as for the EU - he's right, we are going to regret leaving, and they absolutely shouldnt politically offer us any slack as i suggested in my previous post - they have 27 other countries to worry about before playing nice with the UK in any deal especially when the demands of the last 2 governments have ben outlandish and not attractive to the EU + on top of that there's the whole issue of a hard border in ireland which would potentially facilitate a return to the troubles

Those statements clearly said anything with the NHS is not on the table!!! What more do you want? Sounds more like an agenda being driven.

Also you're not blaming the EU cuz you wanted Britain to stay in. What was so outlandish about the demands as they're being called? Maybe they were idk but the EU is also acting like bullies. Its the EU that wants to enact the hard border so if you're gonna be pissed about that...…….
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Those statements clearly said anything with the NHS is not on the table!!! What more do you want? Sounds more like an agenda being driven.

Also you're not blaming the EU cuz you wanted Britain to stay in. What was so outlandish about the demands as they're being called? Maybe they were idk but the EU is also acting like bullies. Its the EU that wants to enact the hard border so if you're gonna be pissed about that...…….

Right some information for you:

in terms of the border it is the conservative government that wants to end freedom of movement that means they want a hard border around the entirety of the UK not the EU - but that also means that because Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland in this scenario is out of the EU, those terms create a hard border in the middle of the island of Ireland - the absence of a border in Ireland despite it being 2 different countries is a crucial part of the peace there and creating that border would either restart the troubles or it would potentially annex northern ireland but again potentially re-start the troubles given how strong (still) the unionist movement is in northern ireland

with regards to the NHS - it clearly is on the table - the UK government wouldn't have had 2 years worth of talks on the NHS in trade talks with the US if they were only saying no - it doesnt take 2 years of meetings to say no

and with regards to this agenda - not sure where id get it from given the main stream media in the UK is majority in favour of the conservative establishment and continuation of the status quo here in the UK - there are only 2 (maybe 3) major outlets that lean to the left here
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Right some information for you:

in terms of the border it is the conservative government that wants to end freedom of movement that means they want a hard border around the entirety of the UK not the EU - but that also means that because Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland in this scenario is out of the EU, those terms create a hard border in the middle of the island of Ireland - the absence of a border in Ireland despite it being 2 different countries is a crucial part of the peace there and creating that border would either restart the troubles or it would potentially annex northern ireland but again potentially re-start the troubles given how strong (still) the unionist movement is in northern ireland

with regards to the NHS - it clearly is on the table - the UK government wouldn't have had 2 years worth of talks on the NHS in trade talks with the US if they were only saying no - it doesnt take 2 years of meetings to say no

and with regards to this agenda - not sure where id get it from given the main stream media in the UK is majority in favour of the conservative establishment and continuation of the status quo here in the UK - there are only 2 (maybe 3) major outlets that lean to the left here

No means no on the NHS. If Trump and Boris Johnson both say its off the table it would be political suicide for it to be different. A major point tho that should be made tho there is already privitiztion in services rendered but I do agree with you that extended pharm patents need to stay out of your system.

Really for the sake of Ireland its showing its not really a great thing to have other countries being involved in the decision on whether there's a hard border with N Ireland but right now its the reality. They really need to get a deal done where it comes to free travel and distribution of goods even if its a side deal just for Ireland. It takes two sides to tango tho and unfortunately to me it seems you're only taking one side. The EU will be the one enforcing the hard border not the UK.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
No means no on the NHS. If Trump and Boris Johnson both say its off the table it would be political suicide for it to be different. A major point tho that should be made tho there is already privitiztion in services rendered but I do agree with you that extended pharm patents need to stay out of your system.

Really for the sake of Ireland its showing its not really a great thing to have other countries being involved in the decision on whether there's a hard border with N Ireland but right now its the reality. They really need to get a deal done where it comes to free travel and distribution of goods even if its a side deal just for Ireland. It takes two sides to tango tho and unfortunately to me it seems you're only taking one side. The EU will be the one enforcing the hard border not the UK.

there is some privatisation in services that are the gateway to more at the moment - the current opposition want to roll back those private contracts
but there is a still a concurrent private system for those that want to pay for private healthcare

the problem with ireland is you cant have a side deal just for ireland because ultimately there will have to be a hard border somewhere - either in the irish sea between the rest of the UK and ireland or in the english channel/atlantic ocean between the island of ireland and mainland europe - either way that would mean that ireland is treated as one country when it is in fact two very disparate places in a fragile peace with each other

and the only way to stop that hard border is by staying with the customs union that the EU operates but the conservative party brexit deal does not keep us in the customs union

which means that no it isnt the EU that is enforcing a hard border - the EU does not want a hard border because its founded on the principals of freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to live with zero tariffs between member countries (and affiliates like norway etc.) so the hard border in this hypothetical scenario is only desired by one side who would enforce it which in this case would be the UK

and why would i take the side of the EU over my own country if i didnt truly believe what i was saying - the EU have been incredibly tolerant of the political turmoil that's been happening in the UK since the 2016 referendum allowing multiple extensions so that our political processes can work themselves out and not imposing their will - if the EU truly wanted to play hardball they would have rejected those extension requests and forced us to leave with no deal and no withdrawal agreement which would leave us trading with our main trading partners under WTO rules and those tariffs would be enforced
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
there is some privatisation in services that are the gateway to more at the moment - the current opposition want to roll back those private contracts
but there is a still a concurrent private system for those that want to pay for private healthcare

the problem with ireland is you cant have a side deal just for ireland because ultimately there will have to be a hard border somewhere - either in the irish sea between the rest of the UK and ireland or in the english channel/atlantic ocean between the island of ireland and mainland europe - either way that would mean that ireland is treated as one country when it is in fact two very disparate places in a fragile peace with each other

and the only way to stop that hard border is by staying with the customs union that the EU operates but the conservative party brexit deal does not keep us in the customs union

which means that no it isnt the EU that is enforcing a hard border - the EU does not want a hard border because its founded on the principals of freedom of movement, freedom to work and freedom to live with zero tariffs between member countries (and affiliates like norway etc.) so the hard border in this hypothetical scenario is only desired by one side who would enforce it which in this case would be the UK

and why would i take the side of the EU over my own country if i didnt truly believe what i was saying - the EU have been incredibly tolerant of the political turmoil that's been happening in the UK since the 2016 referendum allowing multiple extensions so that our political processes can work themselves out and not imposing their will - if the EU truly wanted to play hardball they would have rejected those extension requests and forced us to leave with no deal and no withdrawal agreement which would leave us trading with our main trading partners under WTO rules and those tariffs would be enforced

The extensions the EU is providing is also in their best interests. The British economy by itself is the 5th highest and we can dicker back and forth on who wao;s gonna enforce the hard border and I don't see us ever agreeing on this but I'll leave a link.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

Also you cant keep the customs then therefore you're not having Brexit. How can you make trade thru soveirgnity?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
The extensions the EU is providing is also in their best interests. The British economy by itself is the 5th highest and we can dicker back and forth on who wao;s gonna enforce the hard border and I don't see us ever agreeing on this but I'll leave a link.

https://www.theguardian.com/politic...exit-would-mean-hard-irish-border-eu-confirms

Also you cant keep the customs then therefore you're not having Brexit. How can you make trade thru soveirgnity?

that's the challenge of brexit - we cant have everything - if we are leaving the EU we can choose to remain in the single-market and have access to that trade while maintaining autonomy or we can have a harsher split where we end up with hard borders and border tariffs and limited migration and immigration - you cant really have both

but the customs union is separate to the EU, you can remain in one without the other but you cant be in the customs union without also allowing freedom of movement between the EU and your country (this is often referred to as soft brexit)

not sure what that link is supposed to show that i havent already said - if we leave the EU with no provisions to allow freedom of movement then there will be a hard border - that's self-evident - ultimately it doesnt really matter "who" enforces a hard border though - what matters is that there would be one and whether thats a good thing or a bad thing

and i personally think its an awful idea
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
that's the challenge of brexit - we cant have everything - if we are leaving the EU we can choose to remain in the single-market and have access to that trade while maintaining autonomy or we can have a harsher split where we end up with hard borders and border tariffs and limited migration and immigration - you cant really have both

but the customs union is separate to the EU, you can remain in one without the other but you cant be in the customs union without also allowing freedom of movement between the EU and your country (this is often referred to as soft brexit)

not sure what that link is supposed to show that i havent already said - if we leave the EU with no provisions to allow freedom of movement then there will be a hard border - that's self-evident - ultimately it doesnt really matter "who" enforces a hard border though - what matters is that there would be one and whether thats a good thing or a bad thing

and i personally think its an awful idea

Ok well I hope for the best. Its pretty obvious this is not gonna be an easy task.
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
No means no on the NHS. If Trump and Boris Johnson both say its off the table it would be political suicide for it to be different. A major point tho that should be made tho there is already privitiztion in services rendered but I do agree with you that extended pharm patents need to stay out of your system.

Really for the sake of Ireland its showing its not really a great thing to have other countries being involved in the decision on whether there's a hard border with N Ireland but right now its the reality. They really need to get a deal done where it comes to free travel and distribution of goods even if its a side deal just for Ireland. It takes two sides to tango tho and unfortunately to me it seems you're only taking one side. The EU will be the one enforcing the hard border not the UK.
If this were the case it would have been done already. That would also involve the EU either effectively giving up its own rules or implementing internal border controls to the point of selling the Republic of Ireland up the creek (a deal that can get vetoed by any of the EU27 countries, and no prizes for guessing who'd be first to veto that arrangement).

This guy sums up the Brexit situation quite well. I don't think he's ever voted if you're worried about hidden agendas.


And this explanatory note of his explains why none of the EU's pre-existing relationships have been able to act as a precedent.


To have access to the common market the EU has four freedoms that are non-negotiable: freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital. Access to the common market (the second biggest economy in the world btw. It'll still be far bigger than China without the UK) involves accepting the EU's rules on those four freedoms and several other things. The only way for the UK to have its cake and eat it too would be for the EU to blink. I don't have up-to-date numbers, but if memory serves trade to the UK represents something like 8% of the EU's exports, while trade in the opposite direction is about 45% of the UK's trade. Both sides come out worse off without a deal (I'd also argue they both come out worse off WITH a deal too), but the EU's so rigid it wouldn't even blink if it had the most to lose. The EU's not being a "bully" as you said before, it's just enforcing its own rules.

The Leave campaign strongly implied (if not outright stated) that the UK would be able to strike a deal that provides access to the common market while also controlling their own immigration policy (not accepting the EU's rules on the free movement of people) and the like. And the impunity with which they were able to lie like that actually really annoys me.

Fwiw there actually is a deal that's already been struck, which may well have the numbers to pass if the Tories get their majority. In terms of the trilemma outlined above it basically means putting a border through the Irish sea and providing a huge amount of administrative and legal complexities at the British end.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50083026

It looks like there's actually a majority in Northern Ireland that's in favour of splitting off from the UK and reunifying with the Republic, which would only grow over time given the demographics of the stay/reunify backers. And that says nothing of Scotland, which backed Remain by something like 60-40 and in its own independence referendum decided to stay on the UK on the promise it would stay in the EU. I don't think the Leave vote would have won had the break-up of the UK been tabled as a possibility.

The EU is incredibly protectionist and for all the good it does there's a lot of ridiculous stuff thrown in, but my thesis has always been that the UK won't get a better deal out of the EU than what it had as a member.

Ok well I hope for the best. Its pretty obvious this is not gonna be an easy task.
As difficult a task as it sounds, it's actually monumentally worse. Every law the UK passed since joining the EU has been treated as being in accordance with the EU, and treating EU law as its own law. This includes precedents from European courts applying to UK courts as well as legislation itself. Scotland's constitution also states that non-EU law is "no law" (ie, not recognised at home). Basically, every single law since the 1970s will have to be rewritten.

But from an NZ perspective our government's one of the best in the world at striking trade deals that don't sell our country up the river (due in no small part to a similar economic trauma in the 1980s), so we won't complain about another willing trade partner with a lot of history and similarities. And it means we'd have another strong partner in trying to lobby the US to finally stop neglecting the WTO.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
If this were the case it would have been done already. That would also involve the EU either effectively giving up its own rules or implementing internal border controls to the point of selling the Republic of Ireland up the creek (a deal that can get vetoed by any of the EU27 countries, and no prizes for guessing who'd be first to veto that arrangement).

This guy sums up the Brexit situation quite well. I don't think he's ever voted if you're worried about hidden agendas.


And this explanatory note of his explains why none of the EU's pre-existing relationships have been able to act as a precedent.


To have access to the common market the EU has four freedoms that are non-negotiable: freedom of movement of people, goods, services and capital. Access to the common market (the second biggest economy in the world btw. It'll still be far bigger than China without the UK) involves accepting the EU's rules on those four freedoms and several other things. The only way for the UK to have its cake and eat it too would be for the EU to blink. I don't have up-to-date numbers, but if memory serves trade to the UK represents something like 8% of the EU's exports, while trade in the opposite direction is about 45% of the UK's trade. Both sides come out worse off without a deal (I'd also argue they both come out worse off WITH a deal too), but the EU's so rigid it wouldn't even blink if it had the most to lose. The EU's not being a "bully" as you said before, it's just enforcing its own rules.

The Leave campaign strongly implied (if not outright stated) that the UK would be able to strike a deal that provides access to the common market while also controlling their own immigration policy (not accepting the EU's rules on the free movement of people) and the like. And the impunity with which they were able to lie like that actually really annoys me.

Fwiw there actually is a deal that's already been struck, which may well have the numbers to pass if the Tories get their majority. In terms of the trilemma outlined above it basically means putting a border through the Irish sea and providing a huge amount of administrative and legal complexities at the British end.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-50083026

It looks like there's actually a majority in Northern Ireland that's in favour of splitting off from the UK and reunifying with the Republic, which would only grow over time given the demographics of the stay/reunify backers. And that says nothing of Scotland, which backed Remain by something like 60-40 and in its own independence referendum decided to stay on the UK on the promise it would stay in the EU. I don't think the Leave vote would have won had the break-up of the UK been tabled as a possibility.

The EU is incredibly protectionist and for all the good it does there's a lot of ridiculous stuff thrown in, but my thesis has always been that the UK won't get a better deal out of the EU than what it had as a member.


As difficult a task as it sounds, it's actually monumentally worse. Every law the UK passed since joining the EU has been treated as being in accordance with the EU, and treating EU law as its own law. This includes precedents from European courts applying to UK courts as well as legislation itself. Scotland's constitution also states that non-EU law is "no law" (ie, not recognised at home). Basically, every single law since the 1970s will have to be rewritten.

But from an NZ perspective our government's one of the best in the world at striking trade deals that don't sell our country up the river (due in no small part to a similar economic trauma in the 1980s), so we won't complain about another willing trade partner with a lot of history and similarities. And it means we'd have another strong partner in trying to lobby the US to finally stop neglecting the WTO.


The whole problem is with the UK leaving is its not gonna be in the EU so when you say things are non negotiable then this is a one sided holdup and its the EU that wants the cake and the spoon for it. The EU has trade deals with multiple partners but yet they're taking a very strong stance against the UK and I'm sorry but it seems like they're being awful pissy about it.

Yes I understand some laws have to be rewritten but in reality really there shouldn't be much change. Also your article seems like a fair solution. Seems to me these talks of hard border lines and worries of different laws are making mountains out of molehills. Hell Ireland broke off from the UK and they turned out OK. Time heals wounds and you can always maintain a strong alliance.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
The whole problem is with the UK leaving is its not gonna be in the EU so when you say things are non negotiable then this is a one sided holdup and its the EU that wants the cake and the spoon for it. The EU has trade deals with multiple partners but yet they're taking a very strong stance against the UK and I'm sorry but it seems like they're being awful pissy about it.

Yes I understand some laws have to be rewritten but in reality really there shouldn't be much change. Also your article seems like a fair solution. Seems to me these talks of hard border lines and worries of different laws are making mountains out of molehills. Hell Ireland broke off from the UK and they turned out OK. Time heals wounds and you can always maintain a strong alliance.

the EU is a bloc of countries and it has rules inherent to its existence (the 4 principles that @Inqui just mentioned above) and those are non-negotiable because without them the EU cannot be the EU - so to sacrifice those principles for a country that is trying to separate from the EU would be ridiculous

the EU's stance with the UK is led by the UK on the mostpart - we know the principles the EU is based on so we know the framework that we have to negotiate around and it means there are basically only 2-3 different types of deal we can get - the EU will likely give us any one of those 3 deals - the problem is the previous 2 governments have pretended they can get a 4th type of deal where we get everything we want and dont give up anything

The Republic of Ireland broke away from the UK, Northern Ireland is still part of the UK - a hard border can only go in 3 places and none of them will be acceptable to at least 1 of the Irelands...

  1. If the border is put between the Republic of Ireland and mainland Europe then the republic of Ireland would no longer effectively be sovereign and part of the EU because its status would be different all of a sudden to the rest of the EU - so this is unacceptable
  2. If the border is put between Ireland and Britain (in the irish sea) then northern ireland would be functionally no longer part of the UK as it would be separated via a customs border which would be unacceptable to northern ireland and would devalue their sovereignty as separate to the republic of ireland
  3. If the border is put between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland then there's a threat to the peace and a potential return to the troubles. The open border between those 2 places is a key element to the peace and a hard border would destroy that
so none of those options is acceptable - 1 could never happen because the republic of ireland has the power to not agree to it as part of the EU, 2 is currently the backup plan for if our government cant negotiate a proper trade deal in time but is denying that that is the case, 3 is inconceivable
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
the EU is a bloc of countries and it has rules inherent to its existence (the 4 principles that @Inqui just mentioned above) and those are non-negotiable because without them the EU cannot be the EU - so to sacrifice those principles for a country that is trying to separate from the EU would be ridiculous

the EU's stance with the UK is led by the UK on the mostpart - we know the principles the EU is based on so we know the framework that we have to negotiate around and it means there are basically only 2-3 different types of deal we can get - the EU will likely give us any one of those 3 deals - the problem is the previous 2 governments have pretended they can get a 4th type of deal where we get everything we want and dont give up anything

The Republic of Ireland broke away from the UK, Northern Ireland is still part of the UK - a hard border can only go in 3 places and none of them will be acceptable to at least 1 of the Irelands...

  1. If the border is put between the Republic of Ireland and mainland Europe then the republic of Ireland would no longer effectively be sovereign and part of the EU because its status would be different all of a sudden to the rest of the EU - so this is unacceptable
  2. If the border is put between Ireland and Britain (in the irish sea) then northern ireland would be functionally no longer part of the UK as it would be separated via a customs border which would be unacceptable to northern ireland and would devalue their sovereignty as separate to the republic of ireland
  3. If the border is put between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland then there's a threat to the peace and a potential return to the troubles. The open border between those 2 places is a key element to the peace and a hard border would destroy that
so none of those options is acceptable - 1 could never happen because the republic of ireland has the power to not agree to it as part of the EU, 2 is currently the backup plan for if our government cant negotiate a proper trade deal in time but is denying that that is the case, 3 is inconceivable

Go with 2. You're never gonna have the perfect plan. The checkpoints are monitored by both parties and the EU has the ultimate say in a lot of thimgs. Read Inqui's article. What part of that would be unacceptable and no way should N Ireland should feel like they're separated from the UK. It seems like a good simple plan. KISS. Also allows for free travel. Get the f'n thing signed!!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top