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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Of course there are side effects. Most of these come back to the strength of other parts of the country's infrastructure and in the following years, the countries we all say "XYZ handled this really well" will be the ones that acted decisively against the virus but also had these complementary systems in place. Aside from the death toll, this coronavirus is and will continue to expose a lot of systematic problems that a lot of countries have. I remember a financial analyst quipped a couple of years ago that a rising tide lifts all boats, but equally when the tide goes out we also see who's been swimming naked. To these side effects you mentioned, the tide's going out. As it always does in one way or another. These effects are genuinely terrible and I hope you'll be here in the future talking about how to bolster the related systems.

What's more costly is doing nothing. Sweden's already had 396 deaths per million, compared with neighbouring Denmark's 97, Finland's 55 and Norway's 43 (and Iceland's 29 just to round off the Nordics). And despite their geographic advantages, their fire's still burning while Denmark, Norway and Iceland are looking to reopen. Even a 1% death rate means there can easily be a million deaths in the US if you do nothing. If you look at the abnormal death rates around the world, the coronavirus death rates are probably being underreported if anything. And all of that says nothing about the impact on hospital capacity (we all saw how quickly many systems have been overwhelmed - swimming naked) and the flow-on effects from that (doctors not being able to see people for other stuff, a generation of medical staff getting PTSD for life, and so on) or the disability rate (remembering that this is a disease that goes after your lungs, so a significant amount of people who recover have health issues down the line).

Even the idea that the only people who die are the ones who are old and/or have preexisting conditions (I think that's what you're implying by "we know who it actually kills" so correct me if I'm misreading that) misses the point. 25% of global deaths have been people under 65 to date, which is still statistically significant. But that also doesn't take into account the other effects I mentioned. There isn't a dichotomy between the economy and fighting the virus. Iran and Brazil have famously tried to ignore the virus in the name of protecting their economy and look how it's working out for them. Let this coronavirus run rampant and those side effects you mentioned come back into the picture anyway.

The difference between this virus and the other recent ones has been how much it spreads. People got symptoms before becoming contagious, so they could take a bit of time off. We're only a matter of weeks removed from getting a first-hand lesson in how exponential growth works and people have forgotten it already.

Lockdowns have been a proven strategy all around the world since at least the time of the Black Plague. All I'm saying is that it's not crazy for the Michigan governor to keep it gong for a couple more weeks.

No its not going to just return to normal for lots of people. And I mean never. They're ruined more by the lockdown than the virus. Suicide/opiod addiction and calls to these helplines has went up 80%. Also death rates being lower than predicted like you're saying which I disagree with since there are a high % of people that weren't even tested but I also can counter with how many people have not even been diagnosed. That should lower the death rate capita big time wouldn't you think.

Also with the Scandinavian countries Sweden has more cities/population than the others but will also be better equipped to handle a 2nd wave while the rest will be shutting down again. Also Belarus didnt shut down and they're doing a hell of a lot better than those you mentioned.

Also you make the point of 25% of deaths being under the age of 65. Less than .01% of these people die tho but over 5% of people 65 and over do die. Lets just say you're chances are pretty damn good if not great if under 65 and fairly healthy. Now what takes more. Suicide/addiction? Or covid-19? Again look at the %'s that went up.

Now your saying Michigan should stay closed. Here are some stone cold facts and I'm just print them

New York. They are shutdown
Population 19,453,561
Deaths 29,954
Cuomo is great!!

Florida. They are open
Population 21,477,737
Deaths 2,233
DeSanmtis is a fool!!
Also Fla has a looooot of old people.

Lets go midwest

Michigan. They are tyrannically shutdown.
Population 9,986,587
Deaths 5,223
Whitmer is sane!!

Ohio. They are open
Population 11,689,100
Deaths 1,956
DeWine is crazy!!

Lockdowns are the way to go?? I don't think so. Numbers tell me diffrent.
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
see attached
 

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Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
and by the way, I'm not political. for me, politics is manipulation and only serves statism. Having said that there's a lesser evil here and it's the ones who ain't enforcing this ridiculous lockdown!
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
Remember both Georgia and Florida were supposed to be like New York within 2 weeks. How many times can the media be wrong but yet the faithful base keeps believing them?

generational habitual programming. I hope the tides change and people unlearn this behaviour. I'm hopeful..
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
and by the way, I'm not political. for me, politics is manipulation and only serves statism. Having said that there's a lesser evil here and it's the ones who ain't enforcing this ridiculous lockdown!

See the main diffrence to me between both parties is one is into group think and the other is more into individualism but there sure is some rotten republicans. Richard Burr has proven it while a guy like McCain while I appreciate his service shown he was more about himself when he gave the thumbs down to the skinny repeal on healthcare. He did thaty cuz of his hatred for Trump. Not for the people. Others like McConnell and especially Lindsay Graham talk a good talk but don't walk the walk. Has Graham even done any investigations that he blubbers about all the time? Not trying to change the subject but just saying.

THE SWAMP.
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
Remember when you vote, you're voting for a system(not a person) that is innately corrupted at the source. You're not really changing anything. laws will be enforced and then removed. I've been saying for years that Anarchy and Natural law that is based on Anarcho-capitalism through permaculture and integrity based and privacy based technology ( ie NO 5G ) is the only way. I suggest you look into anarchists such as larken rose and mark passio.

democracy is the illusion of choice. It's a farce and the system needs to change through a mindset shift. Everything else will lead to the same issues.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
Remember when you vote, you're voting for a system(not a person) that is innately corrupted at the source. You're not really changing anything. laws will be enforced and then removed. I've been saying for years that Anarchy and Natural law that is based on Anarcho-capitalism through permaculture and integrity based and privacy based technology ( ie NO 5G ) is the only way. I suggest you look into anarchists such as larken rose and mark passio.

democracy is the illusion of choice. It's a farce and the system needs to change through a mindset shift. Everything else will lead to the same issues.

Thing is we've discussed this way back when if you remember I'm a firm believer of the Constitution and it should be followed as it is construed. Its a marvelous piece of work except for how the 14th amendment was worded. The 18 enumerative powers and the 10th amendment. The govt should work from the inside out.

I will look at your links tommorrow.
 

allblackraven

Hall of Famer
Honest question but do you at all believe there are side effects from the lockdown ie suicide, financial failure and loss of dreams, rising of opiod use, starvation/poverty? Is this not important? You know damn well there's gonna be a 2nd wave and we know who it actually kills. I mean we've been thru several diseases like the Hong Kong Flu ( racist name btw right ) and have never reacted like this which has to make anybody wonder if there is undertones to all of this.

Of course there are side effects. Most of these come back to the strength of other parts of the country's infrastructure and in the following years, the countries we all say "XYZ handled this really well" will be the ones that acted decisively against the virus but also had these complementary systems in place. Aside from the death toll, this coronavirus is and will continue to expose a lot of systematic problems that a lot of countries have. I remember a financial analyst quipped a couple of years ago that a rising tide lifts all boats, but equally when the tide goes out we also see who's been swimming naked. To these side effects you mentioned, the tide's going out. As it always does in one way or another. These effects are genuinely terrible and I hope you'll be here in the future talking about how to bolster the related systems.

What's more costly is doing nothing. Sweden's already had 396 deaths per million, compared with neighbouring Denmark's 97, Finland's 55 and Norway's 43 (and Iceland's 29 just to round off the Nordics). And despite their geographic advantages, their fire's still burning while Denmark, Norway and Iceland are looking to reopen. Even a 1% death rate means there can easily be a million deaths in the US if you do nothing. If you look at the abnormal death rates around the world, the coronavirus death rates are probably being underreported if anything. And all of that says nothing about the impact on hospital capacity (we all saw how quickly many systems have been overwhelmed - swimming naked) and the flow-on effects from that (doctors not being able to see people for other stuff, a generation of medical staff getting PTSD for life, and so on) or the disability rate (remembering that this is a disease that goes after your lungs, so a significant amount of people who recover have health issues down the line).

Even the idea that the only people who die are the ones who are old and/or have preexisting conditions (I think that's what you're implying by "we know who it actually kills" so correct me if I'm misreading that) misses the point. 25% of global deaths have been people under 65 to date, which is still statistically significant. But that also doesn't take into account the other effects I mentioned. There isn't a dichotomy between the economy and fighting the virus. Iran and Brazil have famously tried to ignore the virus in the name of protecting their economy and look how it's working out for them. Let this coronavirus run rampant and those side effects you mentioned come back into the picture anyway.

The difference between this virus and the other recent ones has been how much it spreads. People got symptoms before becoming contagious, so they could take a bit of time off. We're only a matter of weeks removed from getting a first-hand lesson in how exponential growth works and people have forgotten it already.

Lockdowns have been a proven strategy all around the world since at least the time of the Black Plague. All I'm saying is that it's not crazy for the Michigan governor to keep it gong for a couple more weeks.

I can't do much more (don't have the information from elsewhere) but New Zealand suicide numbers have dropped significantly during the lockdown because there were extra measures and support available for mental health issues during this period (since the introduction of alert level system).

Implying the suicide number rise is caused by a lockdown is just plain lazy - for the lockdown to work, it has to be supported by proper testing-tracing-isolation management, which completely failed in lot of countries with high number of casualties. Prolonged inaction is to blame, not the lockdown itself.
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
you do realise being apolitical is also a political choice...

lol no buddy, sovereignty is not a prerequisite for politics. Freedom isn't the result of politics, it's primordial. In this world though they'd have you believe everything is political and that's '' the truth''. Nope.

Also, something you guys should read



You've been #scammed.

News on #COVID19 from Italian Autopsies:



Autopsies show that COVID-19 is a disseminated intravascular coagulation (pulmonary thrombosis). Now it is clear that the whole world has mistakenly attacked the so-called coronavirus pandemic due to a

serious pathophysiological diagnostic error. According to valuable information provided by Italian #pathologists, fans and intensive care units were never needed.

Autopsies performed by Italian pathologists have shown that it is not #pneumonia but disseminated intravascular coagulation (#thrombosis) that must be controlled with antibiotics, antivirals, anti-inflammatories and anticoagulants. If this applies to all cases, this means that the whole world is about to resolve this new #pandemic ahead of schedule. However, the protocols are currently being modified in Italy, which have been negatively affected by the #pandemic.

The impressive case of a Mexican family in the United States who claimed to have been treated with a #HomeRemedy was documented: 3 500 mg aspirin dissolved in honey-boiled lemon juice, heated.



The next they day woke up no symptoms. #Science shows they may be right.



Info released by Italian medical researcher: "Thanks to 50 autopsies performed on patients who died of COVID-19, pathologists have discovered that it is NOT PNEUMONIA, bc the #Virus does not kill pneumocytes of this type but uses an inflammatory #storm to create endothelial vascular thrombosis.

"With diffuse intravascular coagulation, the lung is most infected bc it's most inflamed, but there is also heart attack, #stroke and many other thromboembolic conditions.

They made #antiviral therapies useless and focused on anti inflammatories and anticoagulant therapies. These therapies must be performed immediately, even at home, with #treatment of patients responding well. The way to fight it is with anti inflammatories, antibiotics, and anticoagulants. Italy reports the #Bergamo hospital performed 50 autopsies and 1 in #Milan.

The disease is caused by a disseminated intravascular coagulation caused by the virus. It is NOT about pneumonia, but pulmonary thrombosis.


It's a SERIOUS diagnostic error.

According to Italian #pathologists, intensive care is is useless of thromboembolism is not resolved first.

"If we #ventilate a lung I'm which blood does not circulate, it is useless; 9 out of 10 patients will die because the problem is cardiovascular, not the airways. "It is venus micrpthrombosid, not pneumonia, that determines #mortality." Inflammation causes thrombosis due to a complex but well known pathophysiological mechanism. Until mid-March, #Chinese scientific literature said anti inflammatory drugs should not be used.

Unfortunately, #FakeNews #Media around the world reported this as fact. Now, in Italy, antiinflammatory and antibiotic therapy, is being used, and the number of hospitalizations has decreased. Also noted, many patients that died had a fever 10 to 15 days, and was not treated well. #Fever is usually a sign of inflammation. Inflammation causes a lot of tissue damage and creates soil for thrombus formation.

The BIGGEST problem is not the virus, but the #immune hyper reaction that destroys the cell in which the virus is installed.

iIn fact, patients w rheumatoid #arthritis have never had to be #hospitalized in intensive care due to COVID-19 bc they receive corticosteroid therapy, which is an EXCELLENT anti inflammatory.

With this important discovery, it is possible to return to normal life and end lockdowns, #shutsdowns, & healthy people #quarantine.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
lol no buddy, sovereignty is not a prerequisite for politics. Freedom isn't the result of politics, it's primordial. In this world though they'd have you believe everything is political and that's '' the truth''. Nope.

everything about society (that thing you're railing against - and i do the same in a different way) is inherently political - to espouse anarchism which you keep pushing as a valid alternative is in fact also a political position

your politics seem to be some combination of views that range from anarchism, eco-fascism and libertarianism

all of those are political positions and viewpoints - just because you are anti-capitalist and anti-corporate doesn't make you apolitical
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
everything about society (that thing you're railing against - and i do the same in a different way) is inherently political - to espouse anarchism which you keep pushing as a valid alternative is in fact also a political position

your politics seem to be some combination of views that range from anarchism, eco-fascism and libertarianism

all of those are political positions and viewpoints - just because you are anti-capitalist and anti-corporate doesn't make you apolitical

Nope, it's only eco fascism if it's a lie based on fear, what I am doing is letting you know of the DANGER of this facism based civilization.

My viewpoint is very simple Anarcho-Capitalism based on permaculture, non-aggression principle and voluntaryinsm.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Nope, it's only eco fascism if it's a lie based on fear, what I am doing is letting you know of the DANGER of this facism based civilization.

My viewpoint is very simple Anarcho-Capitalism based on permaculture, non-aggression principle and voluntaryinsm.

what a weird set of stances

anarcho capitalism is a weird form of libertarianism that requires private entities to act in non-selfish ways and be beholden to consumers which is inherently flawed (because it's still capitalism which is exploitative by its nature)

but let's say it works, it's pretty incompatible with the ideas of permaculture which requires non-exploitation of natural resources which is antithesis to capitalist values - permaculture is also completely scientifically unproven in its ability to sustain - it's a beautiful idea but is inefficient as a provider on an exponentially growing global population

non-aggression principle is a fairly libertarian view also - it espouses that everything is under pacts and not laws made by states etc. and that non-aggression is an inherent part of society making - that's all well and good but without a state to enforce, any disagreement over land rights or possession etc. would naturally be won by the person with the strongest force - which means that in a way - non-aggression principle mixed with anarcho-capitalism would mean the formation of lots of independent militias that could potentially be constantly at war with each other

and voluntaryism is maybe the foundation of all libertarianism

so what you are sami, is a libertarian who likes nature and doesnt like overpopulation... but you dress it up in complicated terms to make yourself sound clever
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
what a weird set of stances

anarcho capitalism is a weird form of libertarianism that requires private entities to act in non-selfish ways and be beholden to consumers which is inherently flawed (because it's still capitalism which is exploitative by its nature)

but let's say it works, it's pretty incompatible with the ideas of permaculture which requires non-exploitation of natural resources which is antithesis to capitalist values - permaculture is also completely scientifically unproven in its ability to sustain - it's a beautiful idea but is inefficient as a provider on an exponentially growing global population

non-aggression principle is a fairly libertarian view also - it espouses that everything is under pacts and not laws made by states etc. and that non-aggression is an inherent part of society making - that's all well and good but without a state to enforce, any disagreement over land rights or possession etc. would naturally be won by the person with the strongest force - which means that in a way - non-aggression principle mixed with anarcho-capitalism would mean the formation of lots of independent militias that could potentially be constantly at war with each other

and voluntaryism is maybe the foundation of all libertarianism

so what you are sami, is a libertarian who likes nature and doesnt like overpopulation... but you dress it up in complicated terms to make yourself sound clever

Why does a liberatarian take precedence ( as a word) over an anarchist? Think about it. You're constantly looking at political words as the foundation of someones beliefs. For me they are social principles and I was very, very clear! Libertarian isn't the word i'd use in the context of what it implies in todays world ( the people who call themselves that).

Also, what has overpopulation got to do with anything? That's bill gates you should worry about. I'm not anti any population! Im anti-Eugenics!!

Anyhow
http://www.sah.org.ar/pdf/covid-19/083-20_pre-publishing.pdf

worth sharing.

http://www.sah.org.ar/pdf/covid-19/083-20_pre-publishing.pdf
 

Sami84

Ravens Ring of Honor
and no...it woudn't create militas because that goes against anarchy. ( if you understand what true anarchy entails, it's mindset). Anarchy is based on natural law

search engine: Mark Passio Natural Law

clear cut and you'll understand
 
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