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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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Many have probably seen this, but I just saw it for the first time today. Found it cool and interesting. Just posting for that reason.

 
rossihunter2 said:
Trump promised them trickle down economics which is a staple of republican and conservative economic policy - and there is no evidence that leaving the rich with more money helps middle and working classes
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While that is true, you would be hard pressed to find a person who has been employed and well paid by a poor person.
 
K-Dog said:
While that is true, you would be hard pressed to find a person who has been employed and well paid by a poor person.
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that's a very simplistic way of thinking about it but equally simplistic is this way:

because poor people dont employ people because they cant afford them
rich people can afford to employ people and give them little pay because there's lots of poor people competing for fewer jobs
so when rich people get tax breaks, the poorer get poorer because they don't get paid more because there's still the same number of people and the same number of jobs but they have less benefits because welfare is reduced because there's less government money, and the rich get richer because they are paying less tax but not paying more wages
 
So, I always see this sentiment thrown around that Obama left the country divided. What specifically did he do that would have divided the country?

I think it is worth mentioning that Obama didn't have anything to have the country rally around like second Bush who had 9/11 to rally the country with.
 
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rossihunter2 said:
you mean except scaring old white racist folks who "want their country back" right?
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Bush had 9/11 to really rally the country around him and come together in unity around him. I don't think America is any worse off now than they were prior, but for a period of time, the US came together because of a horrible terrorist attack that killed so many on American soil.
 
rossihunter2 said:
that's a very simplistic way of thinking about it but equally simplistic is this way:

because poor people dont employ people because they cant afford them
rich people can afford to employ people and give them little pay because there's lots of poor people competing for fewer jobs
so when rich people get tax breaks, the poorer get poorer because they don't get paid more because there's still the same number of people and the same number of jobs but they have less benefits because welfare is reduced because there's less government money, and the rich get richer because they are paying less tax but not paying more wages
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I don't think your generalization about rich people is accurate. Granted there are some that will keep the money generated by tax reductions but many won't. Good business people recognize that to have a successful enterprise they need good employees and treat them well to be able to retain them. Others will take the tax savings and invest them back into their company.
 
Somerset Ravens said:
I don't think your generalization about rich people is accurate. Granted there are some that will keep the money generated by tax reductions but many won't. Good business people recognize that to have a successful enterprise they need good employees and treat them well to be able to retain them. Others will take the tax savings and invest them back into their company.
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i was oversimplifying to make a point - yes good business people are obviously going to invest those tax savings in their company be that taking care of employees or investing in other areas but the problem is that not every business person is a good business person or moral either - where welfare is a blanket safety net for everyone not every person who works for a large business is going to have that safety net - some/many will be exploited - which is why it doesnt work as a system
 
so on another tax note anyway - it looks like trump/gop lied anyway - while corporation tax is still scheduled to be reduced, 82 million middle class households are scheduled to have a tax increase in the GOP plan but will not garner any benefits from government spending and 50% of americans in total will have their taxes increased moving forwards into the future...

and all this after trump just said 'we're going to give the american people a huge tax break for christmas'

what's even worse is this tax plan will only add $169 billion of growth over the next decade which is an insanely small amount of growth relative to the american economy over that stretch of time - and all this after the congress' joint committee on taxation estimated it would lead to $1.5 trillion in growth

and in fact this plan only lasts to 2026 because at that point it would create a massive budget deficit

these figures came out today from a "Non-partisan Tax Policy Centre" which found that where there were personal tax cuts, lower earners would generally get smaller tax breaks than higher earners (which seems backwards to me)

what's most insidious about this deal is that it attempts to appease middle class anger by giving a typical family a tax break in the short term but each year the cut gets smaller and in 2026 the middle class plan ends - why are the middle class and lower class tax breaks temporary when those for the rich are apparently permanent? why do LLCs get special tax discounts and married couples who earn more than $11 million get larger tax breaks...? the answer is that donald trump and the rich around him benefit from both of those things which is why they are permanent - but they dont benefit from the middle classes having those tax breaks in the long run so they are temporary

Trump and his heirs likely save $1 billion dollars in this tax plan - how is this not a conflict of interest?

politicians obfuscate the truth all the time but trump and the gop are literally enacting the opposite of what they campaigned on and what they are doing is immoral in my opinion - im not american but im outraged at this callous mistreatment of people
 
rossihunter2 said:
you mean except scaring old white racist folks who "want their country back" right?
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Not sure what you could possibly mean by this because he would never have been elected without the votes of the people I think you are referencing. It actually sounds like something written in a bad novel. lol

I guess rather than remaining silent I owe you a clarification on what I meant in saying what I did about Obama’s presidency. Being the first black president of the United States, he had an unprecedented opportunity to unify the country and put to rest much of the misplaced, ill feelings on both sides of the racial divide. Many of the people that voted for him had high hopes of this happening. But instead of taking advantage of that unique opportunity he generally rode the fence and chose to do nothing, or in many cases just drove a deeper wedge, polarizing views and widening the divide.
 
Tank said:
I guess rather than remaining silent I owe you a clarification on what I meant in saying what I did about Obama’s presidency. Being the first black president of the United States, he had an unprecedented opportunity to unify the country and put to rest much of the misplaced, ill feelings on both sides of the racial divide. Many of the people that voted for him had high hopes of this happening. But instead of taking advantage of that unique opportunity he generally rode the fence and chose to do nothing, or in many cases just drove a deeper wedge, polarizing views and widening the divide.
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what specifically would you have had him do? what bridge could he have built if you will?
 
rossihunter2 said:
so on another tax note anyway - it looks like trump/gop lied anyway - while corporation tax is still scheduled to be reduced, 82 million middle class households are scheduled to have a tax increase in the GOP plan but will not garner any benefits from government spending and 50% of americans in total will have their taxes increased moving forwards into the future...

and all this after trump just said 'we're going to give the american people a huge tax break for christmas'

what's even worse is this tax plan will only add $169 billion of growth over the next decade which is an insanely small amount of growth relative to the american economy over that stretch of time - and all this after the congress' joint committee on taxation estimated it would lead to $1.5 trillion in growth

and in fact this plan only lasts to 2026 because at that point it would create a massive budget deficit

these figures came out today from a "Non-partisan Tax Policy Centre" which found that where there were personal tax cuts, lower earners would generally get smaller tax breaks than higher earners (which seems backwards to me)

what's most insidious about this deal is that it attempts to appease middle class anger by giving a typical family a tax break in the short term but each year the cut gets smaller and in 2026 the middle class plan ends - why are the middle class and lower class tax breaks temporary when those for the rich are apparently permanent? why do LLCs get special tax discounts and married couples who earn more than $11 million get larger tax breaks...? the answer is that donald trump and the rich around him benefit from both of those things which is why they are permanent - but they dont benefit from the middle classes having those tax breaks in the long run so they are temporary

Trump and his heirs likely save $1 billion dollars in this tax plan - how is this not a conflict of interest?

politicians obfuscate the truth all the time but trump and the gop are literally enacting the opposite of what they campaigned on and what they are doing is immoral in my opinion - im not american but im outraged at this callous mistreatment of people
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Where did you see that 82 million middle class households are scheduled to have a tax increase? That does not make sense

I don't think the upper bracket individual tax rate should lowered and the estate tax should stay in place.

The Republicans did put it to the Democrats by eliminating the state tax deduction. This will really hurt the blue states such as California, New York and New Jersey with high tax rates. This will pressure these states to lower taxes or face the possibility of high income residents move to states with lower state taxes.

Hopefully the Senate can improve the tax bill but counting on the Senate to do the right thing is iffy at best.
 
Somerset Ravens said:
What specifically in the GOP tax reform plan makes you think this?
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The analysis by nonprofit and nonpartisan tax analysts like the Tax Policy Center: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/feature/analysis-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act

"We find the bill would reduce taxes on average for all income groups in both 2019 and 2025. In general, higher income households receive larger average tax cuts as a percentage of after-tax income, with the largest cuts as a share of income going to taxpayers in the 95th to 99th percentiles of the income distribution. On average in 2027, taxes would rise modestly for the lowest-income group,chang e little for middle-income groups, and decrease for higher-income groups."
 
29BmoreBird22 said:
So, I always see this sentiment thrown around that Obama left the country divided. What specifically did he do that would have divided the country?

I think it is worth mentioning that Obama didn't have anything to have the country rally around like second Bush who had 9/11 to rally the country with.
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I'm pretty sure it's because he's black and brought race into the national discourse for the first time since the 60's.

I mean, that has to be it, unless people thought we'd be divided by middle class tax cuts, health insurance for millions, increased regulations for banks, stronger environmental protections, marriage equality, ending the War in Iraq, and beginning to pull out of Afghanistan. What's divisive about that?
 
The Raven said:
I'm pretty sure it's because he's black and brought race into the national discourse for the first time since the 60's.

I mean, that has to be it, unless people thought we'd be divided by middle class tax cuts, health insurance for millions, increased regulations for banks, stronger environmental protections, marriage equality, ending the War in Iraq, and beginning to pull out of Afghanistan. What's divisive about that?
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As I just said to Rossi, people don't seem to always grasp that change is often brought by uncomfortable feelings. We cannot have a black president try to unite the country and simultaneously ignore any issues that plague minorities.
 
The Raven said:
The analysis by nonprofit and nonpartisan tax analysts like the Tax Policy Center: http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/feature/analysis-tax-cuts-and-jobs-act

"We find the bill would reduce taxes on average for all income groups in both 2019 and 2025. In general, higher income households receive larger average tax cuts as a percentage of after-tax income, with the largest cuts as a share of income going to taxpayers in the 95th to 99th percentiles of the income distribution. On average in 2027, taxes would rise modestly for the lowest-income group,chang e little for middle-income groups, and decrease for higher-income groups."
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Thanks for the link. I wish it gave more information about the assumptions that were used in their analysis. These assumptions can guide the results of the analysis.
 
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