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Signings, Cuts, Trades

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
One point I’ve seen mentioned a few times here is that you likely won’t find a LT insurance outside the first round. I think that’s completely bogus. There have been more than a few top LT who have succeeded who were drafted after the first round. Armstead is a great example of one such player. Yes you will more likely find one early but that is not mutually exclusive. It depends on the draft and a lot of factors.
I think this is actually a good draft to find a serviceable LT option. Yeah maybe we don’t get one of the top dogs but there are some solid and developmental options in the mid rounds. Not sure you’re getting a Ronnie Stanley or anything but I’d be hard pressed to believe that there aren’t a couple of Joe Notebooms or guys like that.
 

Grim

Ravens Ring of Honor
I think this is actually a good draft to find a serviceable LT option. Yeah maybe we don’t get one of the top dogs but there are some solid and developmental options in the mid rounds. Not sure you’re getting a Ronnie Stanley or anything but I’d be hard pressed to believe that there aren’t a couple of Joe Notebooms or guys like that.
I agree. Get a guy in the 3rd-4th (maybe 2nd, but I think 3-4 is the sweet spot) who you could develop into an LT. I would even double-dip to get a guy to play interior like we seem to enjoy doing as Eric alluded.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I think Brown will command $22m/year at the minimum. I think your numbers are delusional if you think we have any chance at getting him for $15M. Brown will have the fifth year option next year in 2024 so by the time Brown gets a deal if we wait his price will be in the $25M+ range easily. Next year the rate may be at $20M minimum. I think the time for $15M has past because the tag and fifth year options will be close to or above that.
Well I didn't say we would get him for $15M. I think $20M is more realistic, because even though the market is shooting up for receivers, its not really shooting up for everybody, i.e. not every FA WR is getting top 5 money.
I don't think anybody in the league will give him $25M next offseason. You're basically paying him Tyreke Hill, Stefon Diggs money, which he won't get, unless he has like a 1,500 yard season this year (which I sincerely doubt he does). Price tag for him isn't going to shoot up 25-30% in a 1-2 year period.

I listed him in a group of players who are all making about $20M a year, and of which several signed just this offseason. I think that's where he will land.

The high end receivers, at the moment, are making $25M a year. Even guys like Tyreke, who are "reported" to be making $30M a year or whatever, really aren't. There's just a bunch of gigantic salaries on the back end, non-guaranteed, that they'll never get.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I think this is actually a good draft to find a serviceable LT option. Yeah maybe we don’t get one of the top dogs but there are some solid and developmental options in the mid rounds. Not sure you’re getting a Ronnie Stanley or anything but I’d be hard pressed to believe that there aren’t a couple of Joe Notebooms or guys like that.
While I agree with this, my only point is... why is a developmental LT important? For long term depth, sure.
Who's paying LT this year if Ronnie Stanley can't? It's really the only question anybody cares about. If we're taking a "developmental" guy in, say, the 3rd or 4th round, and Stanley can't play, that guy is probably the week 1 starter at LT. And if he's a disaster, well, we're back in the same spot we were last year.

Maybe that guy develops into something better later on, but I don't know too many Ravens fans, myself included, who are worried about whether we have a good LT 2-3 years from now.

Maybe they kick Moses off there. Maybe they even put Mekari or James there. I don't know. But a "developmental" player somewhat implies that he's not ready to be even average on day 1. And its possible that's exactly what we need.

For me, the upside to drafting a guy in say late day 2 or early day 3 is a) he may be able to start or compete at LG, and b) he'll be the immediate swing tackle, with the possibility of maybe being the long term option at RT and a serviceable LT backup.

If I need somebody who can play the left side on day 1 at a serviceable level, MAYBE I can get that at that spot, but historically, that's a stretch.
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
While I agree with this, my only point is... why is a developmental LT important? For long term depth, sure.
Who's paying LT this year if Ronnie Stanley can't? It's really the only question anybody cares about. If we're taking a "developmental" guy in, say, the 3rd or 4th round, and Stanley can't play, that guy is probably the week 1 starter at LT. And if he's a disaster, well, we're back in the same spot we were last year.

Maybe that guy develops into something better later on, but I don't know too many Ravens fans, myself included, who are worried about whether we have a good LT 2-3 years from now.

Maybe they kick Moses off there. Maybe they even put Mekari or James there. I don't know. But a "developmental" player somewhat implies that he's not ready to be even average on day 1. And its possible that's exactly what we need.
They aren't all developmental. There are guys with capped upsides but should be solid enough to play there early if needed. But even if they are developmental, that doesn't mean they can't play there now.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
They aren't all developmental. There are guys with capped upsides but should be solid enough to play there early if needed. But even if they are developmental, that doesn't mean they can't play there now.
No, it just means they may not be any better than Al was last year. That would be kind of the baseline of what I think a 4th round pick would do at LT in his first season. I think the upside is higher obviously, but that upside is usually a multi-year process to realize.

And I wasn't even the guy who thought starting Al at LT last year was the end of the universe of our SB chances. I can just already hear the fanbases reaction to us starting a day 3 pick at LT, them being average or even slightly below average, and fans blowing a gasket because we didn't land an All-Pro to play there.
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
No, it just means they may not be any better than Al was last year. That would be kind of the baseline of what I think a 4th round pick would do at LT in his first season. I think the upside is higher obviously, but that upside is usually a multi-year process to realize.

And I wasn't even the guy who thought starting Al at LT last year was the end of the universe of our SB chances. I can just already hear the fanbases reaction to us starting a day 3 pick at LT, them being average or even slightly below average, and fans blowing a gasket because we didn't land an All-Pro to play there.
That's a bold assumption. I thought we weren't supposed to assume xyz won't happen in the draft?
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
That's a bold assumption. I thought we weren't supposed to assume xyz won't happen in the draft?
It's a bold assumption to think a 3rd or 4th round pick won't be a better than average LT in their first year?
Why is exactly is that bold?
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Just throwing it back on you for the “who’s to say we can’t find a C” comments from a couple weeks bsck
Do you believe they're the same comparison? I didn't think I needed to explain, historically, the deviations between where quality Centers are found in the draft vs where quality LTs are found in the draft.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
You’re missing the point which isn’t surprising
You've yet to make a valid point, which isn't surprising...

I can assume that NFL teams can find quality Center play in the middle rounds of drafts, because historically, NFL teams have done that very frequently.
I also can't assume that NFL teams can find quality LT play in the middle rounds of drafts, because historically, NFL teams have struggled mightily to do that frequently.

If you think that I can't assume one without the other, then I don't think you have a valid reason to think that way.
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
You've yet to make a valid point, which isn't surprising...

I can assume that NFL teams can find quality Center play in the middle rounds of drafts, because historically, NFL teams have done that very frequently.
I also can't assume that NFL teams can find quality LT play in the middle rounds of drafts, because historically, NFL teams have struggled mightily to do that frequently.

If you think that I can't assume one without the other, then I don't think you have a valid reason to think that way.
You're right I'm wrong we can carry on with our lives now
 

Grim

Ravens Ring of Honor
Well I didn't say we would get him for $15M. I think $20M is more realistic, because even though the market is shooting up for receivers, its not really shooting up for everybody, i.e. not every FA WR is getting top 5 money.
I don't think anybody in the league will give him $25M next offseason. You're basically paying him Tyreke Hill, Stefon Diggs money, which he won't get, unless he has like a 1,500 yard season this year (which I sincerely doubt he does). Price tag for him isn't going to shoot up 25-30% in a 1-2 year period.

I listed him in a group of players who are all making about $20M a year, and of which several signed just this offseason. I think that's where he will land.

The high end receivers, at the moment, are making $25M a year. Even guys like Tyreke, who are "reported" to be making $30M a year or whatever, really aren't. There's just a bunch of gigantic salaries on the back end, non-guaranteed, that they'll never get.
I mean, you said 15M. Those aren't my words. Let me break down my point in a simple-to-digest bulleted list for you:

1. The cap is increasing every year & is projected to increase a lot in the coming years.
2. We have inflation of WR (and many other) salaries, which is hard to curtail w/o some owner collusion (which would be illegal)
3. Teams pay players for what they will do for them not what they have done and I think the market is showing that.

While I agree with this, my only point is... why is a developmental LT important? For long term depth, sure.
Who's paying LT this year if Ronnie Stanley can't? It's really the only question anybody cares about. If we're taking a "developmental" guy in, say, the 3rd or 4th round, and Stanley can't play, that guy is probably the week 1 starter at LT. And if he's a disaster, well, we're back in the same spot we were last year.

Maybe that guy develops into something better later on, but I don't know too many Ravens fans, myself included, who are worried about whether we have a good LT 2-3 years from now.

Maybe they kick Moses off there. Maybe they even put Mekari or James there. I don't know. But a "developmental" player somewhat implies that he's not ready to be even average on day 1. And its possible that's exactly what we need.

For me, the upside to drafting a guy in say late day 2 or early day 3 is a) he may be able to start or compete at LG, and b) he'll be the immediate swing tackle, with the possibility of maybe being the long term option at RT and a serviceable LT backup.

If I need somebody who can play the left side on day 1 at a serviceable level, MAYBE I can get that at that spot, but historically, that's a stretch.
I don't think you need an elite LT. You need a guy who won't get the QB killed. I think a developmental guy could certainly be fine. Villaneuva was OK but he was below average last year in many ways. You may get that with a rookie, may not. You won't know unless you play them though.
You've yet to make a valid point, which isn't surprising...

I can assume that NFL teams can find quality Center play in the middle rounds of drafts, because historically, NFL teams have done that very frequently.
I also can't assume that NFL teams can find quality LT play in the middle rounds of drafts, because historically, NFL teams have struggled mightily to do that frequently.

If you think that I can't assume one without the other, then I don't think you have a valid reason to think that way.
You could find quality play throughout the draft at nearly any position. If you scout & develop well & get lucky then anything can happen. Sure, more LTs get Drafted higher than Cs but we've seen guys like Kelly, Mangold, etc. go high. We've also seen plenty of them [Centers, Left Tackles, etc.] bust too. There's no guarantee those dudes do well either. I think NFL teams struggle to find LTs period despite the round lol. I could give you a longer list to prove that LT is truly a crapshoot as any position on the OL.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I mean, you said 15M. Those aren't my words. Let me break down my point in a simple-to-digest bulleted list for you:

1. The cap is increasing every year & is projected to increase a lot in the coming years.
2. We have inflation of WR (and many other) salaries, which is hard to curtail w/o some owner collusion (which would be illegal)
3. Teams pay players for what they will do for them not what they have done and I think the market is showing that.


I don't think you need an elite LT. You need a guy who won't get the QB killed. I think a developmental guy could certainly be fine. Villaneuva was OK but he was below average last year in many ways. You may get that with a rookie, may not. You won't know unless you play them though.

You could find quality play throughout the draft at nearly any position. If you scout & develop well & get lucky then anything can happen. Sure, more LTs get Drafted higher than Cs but we've seen guys like Kelly, Mangold, etc. go high. We've also seen plenty of them [Centers, Left Tackles, etc.] bust too. There's no guarantee those dudes do well either. I think NFL teams struggle to find LTs period despite the round lol. I could give you a longer list to prove that LT is truly a crapshoot as any position on the OL.
1. In terms of Hollywood, I chose $15M as the floor because that's where the topic was a month or two ago when discussing his value. Today, the $15M range would pay him as a top 20 WR, and put him in-line with the likes of Allen Robinson, Cooper Kupp (who's obviously underpaid), Brandin Cooks, Robert Woods, Mike Evans of the world.
I don't think you need owner collusion to curtail WR spend. All you need is what I think we've seen in the last couple years, which is a mass influx of high-end WR talent in draft classes. Once teams realize that the draft is filthy rich with WRs, they'll stop spending high end money in FA on them. What will happen is the top tier guys will stay with their current teams on lucrative extensions, and the FA market will eventually plateau or even decline.
There was a time when RBs were highly valued also. Now, they're not. Just because the cap rises doesn't mean all position groups rises at the same level with the cap. Some will rise higher (QBs), others won't.

In terms of what teams pay for, its a mixed bag. Pretty much every team is paying for future performance, while taking into account past performance. If you had a receiver who's literally never produced, its not like some team is going to give them $20M a year because "we think his potential is super high". They'll extrapolate future production while also acknowledging what you've done to earn that.

2. I agree there's unknowns with draft picks and LTs in particular. My criticism was mostly of the fanbase, i.e. the fact that I'm sure there are dozens of posters on here and millions elsewhere who will whine and complain if whatever LT is out there besides Stanley isn't at least substantially better than Villaneuva, which I personally don't know is super realistic. If we just trot out somebody who's the same but with a different last name, all the fanbase is going to do is whine and bitch about how we "didn't do enough to address the position".
I don't find that intelligent, of course, but that's never stopped anybody before.

3. I never said LT wasn't a crapshoot. I'm implying it is. What I'm also implying is that if you made a list of starters, by position group, LT will be one of the positions on a football team with the highest number of starters who were first round picks. It won't be as high as QB likely, but I'll bet if you stack high end players and quality starters on a curve, by round selected, LT's will be among the highest position groups where using a first round pick on them is widely the best approach.
Doesn't mean its impossible to find one elsewhere, but it becomes significantly harder than other position groups historically.

Hence why I said in another post that teams are more comfortable finding quality Centers outside the first round than quality LT's. Combination of harder to find quality players to begin with and the value of the position.

Also why I think there's still value in taking a Tackle on day 2-3. That player may be good enough to play RT right away (which means maybe you kick Moses or James to LT), or would likely be at least a swing tackle with the possibility of starting at LG. That's what I would hope out of a mid round Tackle pick in year 1.

Basically a better version of Tyre Phillips, who hasn't worked out very well so far, but maybe because he never got a strong chance at LG either.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
One point I’ve seen mentioned a few times here is that you likely won’t find a LT insurance outside the first round. I think that’s completely bogus. There have been more than a few top LT who have succeeded who were drafted after the first round. Armstead is a great example of one such player. Yes you will more likely find one early but that is not mutually exclusive. It depends on the draft and a lot of factors.

1st round's where you need to look if you need a LT right now and to be ready right now

if you've got the ability to sit someone and develop them over time then you can find talented guys after the 2nd round - just need to be ready to accept that they might not contribute much the first year or 2... or ever...

it must be said that the overwhelming majority of starters at LT are 1st round picks:

18 1st
4 2nd
3 3rd
2 4th
2 6th
2 7th
1 udfa

notable that 1 of the 7th rounders (Mailata) and 1 of the 3rd rounders (Noteboom) were sat on the bench for most of their rookie contracts as they developed into franchise LTs - and a few others sat on the bench for at least their rookie year

worth noting that 1 of the 6th rounders and the udfas are just placeholders for when the team likely drafts their replacement (or finds one from elsewhere - colts, saints)

interesting coincidental (and completely meaningless) fact both the 4th rounders were instant starters as rookies

all that being said - there's nothing to prevent you drafting a developmental guy and bringing him along as slow as he needs - and maybe they eventually start at RT, maybe they're never more than a swing tackle, maybe they become the successor to stanley

just shouldnt bank on anyone outside the 1st round being an early stand-in for Stanley
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
1st round's where you need to look if you need a LT right now and to be ready right now

if you've got the ability to sit someone and develop them over time then you can find talented guys after the 2nd round - just need to be ready to accept that they might not contribute much the first year or 2... or ever...

it must be said that the overwhelming majority of starters at LT are 1st round picks:

18 1st
4 2nd
3 3rd
2 4th
2 6th
2 7th
1 udfa

notable that 1 of the 7th rounders (Mailata) and 1 of the 3rd rounders (Noteboom) were sat on the bench for most of their rookie contracts as they developed into franchise LTs - and a few others sat on the bench for at least their rookie year

worth noting that 1 of the 6th rounders and the udfas are just placeholders for when the team likely drafts their replacement (or finds one from elsewhere - colts, saints)

interesting coincidental (and completely meaningless) fact both the 4th rounders were instant starters as rookies

all that being said - there's nothing to prevent you drafting a developmental guy and bringing him along as slow as he needs - and maybe they eventually start at RT, maybe they're never more than a swing tackle, maybe they become the successor to stanley

just shouldnt bank on anyone outside the 1st round being an early stand-in for Stanley
Precisely my point.
In my opinion, if you don't take a Tackle in round 1, the "insurance" for Stanley, in 2022, is either already on the roster (meaning Moses, James, or Mekari, with the latter apparently being unlikely) or will be somebody you sign in FA after the draft.

I think anybody you take on day 2 or day 3, from a reasonable expectation standpoint, should be basically a 3rd tackle, that will slot in at RT as a starter if Stanley can't go, and/or will compete for a starting job at LG, in 2022.
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
Was EDC's comment about we could announce some stuff in the coming weeks just total lip service or do we think they are actually negotiating with people even if it's slow going?
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Was EDC's comment about we could announce some stuff in the coming weeks just total lip service or do we think they are actually negotiating with people even if it's slow going?
I think he was being sincere, but even though he said a few weeks, it may be after the draft.
 
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