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The Random Thought Thread

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
OK but just to be clear:
1. Watson is making $46M in AAV per year. So he's #2 highest paid in AAV. Not seeing how he's $15M over market value.
2. You already know that AAV doesn't really matter, because if it's not guaranteed, it's basically written in pencil. You can erase it at any time. The Ravens may easily sign Lamar to a $60M AAV deal, but that doesn't mean he'll get all of it or even half of it. Just depends on what the guarantees are.
3. You're way, way, way off on the second paragraph.
Why can't they be active in FA? Do you really think he's going to have a $55M cap hit next year? Of course not. They'll take a bunch of his salary, convert to a bonus, spread it out. Rinse, repeat. I'll bet right now that his cap hit in 2023 is under $40M.
Also not sure why people don't think they have draft picks. They have plenty of draft picks. 14 picks in the next two years. The only thing they don't have is first rounders. That's it. They have second rounders, they have third rounders, and they have tons of day 3 picks.
If their FO is worth a damn in terms of talent evaluation and development, no reason they can't get several starters and quality depth players from that group. Much in the same way we expect same from Rams, Ravens, or any other team.

We clearly disagree on SB contending roster. I don't see what that roster is any worse than it was two years ago when they were in the divisional round. You probably would have a hard time listing for me weak areas of their team. They're strong on the Oline, running game is possibly the best in the league, they have a quality TE, they have a very strong secondary and obviously pass rush isn't a concern.
Like you'd actually have a pretty hard time comping the Ravens as a better roster, considering we actually share some of the same weaknesses (namely at WR). I like our secondary better, but it's not dramatically better, and I like their pass rush a hell of a lot more.

If Deshaun Watson were to play all 17 games this year, they're far, far, far away the favorites in the AFC North. I don't think its particularly close either. Most people are ignoring the Browns because they know Watson is getting suspended and many assume for a long enough time that it's going to derail their season.

Think you're wildly overestimating the "bad football decision" here. I don't think anybody expects Watson to be suspended for longer than 2022. By 2023, they're a routine contender in the AFC for the foreseeable future. Houston was in that class already with Watson, and Houston's roster was never anywhere close to as good as Cleveland's is.

It is not meaningless though otherwise why not give Lamar 5 years 500 million full guaranteed and then go ahead and give Humphrey a raise to 40 million AAV full guaranteed and Andrews a raise to 30 million AAV fully guaranteed. This is obviously a logical extreme but the obvious reason you do not do that is because you cannot hide all of it and eventually you become New Orleans over the past couple years where you are letting people go, not really able to sign anyone outside of the organization and your goal is to keep the band together and stay under the cap. Other examples of this are obviously the Packers and Steelers. If it were so easy to stay under the cap they would not have had to make the choices they made.

The reason I refer to it as 15m over (though 14m is probably more accurate) is because after he gets suspended this year and does not play you have 4 years 220 million dollars to pay out (as 9 million of the bonus is paid out this year and 1 million salary they will get back for suspension). That means you are 54m AAV for him to be your QB when the going rate for a QB at his level without baggage is 40m and you are paying 54m.

Now they do not really have any cuts they can make to save money but they can delay the problem a year by restructuring Watson and Garrett, but that gets them enough breathing room to sign their own guys who they almost certainly do not want to let go who are good/great players depending on who we are referring to but at that point you have the problem where you are not getting better and are treading water with no top draft picks so in fact are slowly sinking (so like NO without draft picks).

Basically the best the Browns CAN be is in 2023 when they are starting a QB who will have not played in 2 years and hoping that the roster they have now, which will not be getting better than it is right now, will be a Super Bowl contender that year because they are going to be on a downhill trend otherwise.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
It is not meaningless though otherwise why not give Lamar 5 years 500 million full guaranteed and then go ahead and give Humphrey a raise to 40 million AAV full guaranteed and Andrews a raise to 30 million AAV fully guaranteed. This is obviously a logical extreme but the obvious reason you do not do that is because you cannot hide all of it and eventually you become New Orleans over the past couple years where you are letting people go, not really able to sign anyone outside of the organization and your goal is to keep the band together and stay under the cap. Other examples of this are obviously the Packers and Steelers. If it were so easy to stay under the cap they would not have had to make the choices they made.

The reason I refer to it as 15m over (though 14m is probably more accurate) is because after he gets suspended this year and does not play you have 4 years 220 million dollars to pay out (as 9 million of the bonus is paid out this year and 1 million salary they will get back for suspension). That means you are 54m AAV for him to be your QB when the going rate for a QB at his level without baggage is 40m and you are paying 54m.

Now they do not really have any cuts they can make to save money but they can delay the problem a year by restructuring Watson and Garrett, but that gets them enough breathing room to sign their own guys who they almost certainly do not want to let go who are good/great players depending on who we are referring to but at that point you have the problem where you are not getting better and are treading water with no top draft picks so in fact are slowly sinking (so like NO without draft picks).

Basically the best the Browns CAN be is in 2023 when they are starting a QB who will have not played in 2 years and hoping that the roster they have now, which will not be getting better than it is right now, will be a Super Bowl contender that year because they are going to be on a downhill trend otherwise.
OK you missed the boat again. I said AAV doesn't matter, and now you're saying it does by talking about guaranteed money. They're two different things. Signing somebody to a $100M AAV contract, and guaranteeing only 10% of it, means nothing. It doesn't mean you overpaid. It means you wrote most of the contract in pencil.
Guaranteed money matters. AAV doesn't. AAV can be literally whatever you want it to be. It's basically an ego thing.

Most signing bonuses get paid out at signing. That's how a signing bonus works. Watson is going to make $46M this year in cash. Just because the Browns are prorating that doesn't mean he doesn't get paid. It's a salary cap proration, not a cash proration.

So the Browns are going pay out $184M over the next year four years, which is $46M per year. They literally structured his deal on a straight-line basis for cash flow. He gets $46M every single year. They'll have the option to turn that into more or less in future years, but that's how it sits now.
And if we're being totally honest, even at $54M (which isn't the right way to look at it), you're completely in range of the market. Some of the comps you have aren't as good as Watson in my eyes (Dak, Carr, etc.), and the "baggage" aspect will be gone, since he'll be back from suspension. Watson would be no more or less likely to suit up than anybody else once 2023 starts.
Moreover, some of those contracts are stale at this point. Patrick Mahomes isn't a $45M AAV player if he signs his deal in 2023. His deal is 3-4 years old at that point. Same with Josh Allen, Lamar, and anybody else who signs going forward. The money only goes up, not down, almost regardless of player.

We disagree on their long term prognosis. The "salary cap catching up to them" thing only happens when Watson isn't a Brown anymore. We could be looking at 10 years easily if we're being realistic. They only have two years without first round picks, and the Saints gave up a lot more draft capital in past years than the Browns did to get Watson, which really wasn't that big of a haul to begin with.
 

Adreme

Ravens Ring of Honor
OK you missed the boat again. I said AAV doesn't matter, and now you're saying it does by talking about guaranteed money. They're two different things. Signing somebody to a $100M AAV contract, and guaranteeing only 10% of it, means nothing. It doesn't mean you overpaid. It means you wrote most of the contract in pencil.
Guaranteed money matters. AAV doesn't. AAV can be literally whatever you want it to be. It's basically an ego thing.

Most signing bonuses get paid out at signing. That's how a signing bonus works. Watson is going to make $46M this year in cash. Just because the Browns are prorating that doesn't mean he doesn't get paid. It's a salary cap proration, not a cash proration.

So the Browns are going pay out $184M over the next year four years, which is $46M per year. They literally structured his deal on a straight-line basis for cash flow. He gets $46M every single year. They'll have the option to turn that into more or less in future years, but that's how it sits now.
And if we're being totally honest, even at $54M (which isn't the right way to look at it), you're completely in range of the market. Some of the comps you have aren't as good as Watson in my eyes (Dak, Carr, etc.), and the "baggage" aspect will be gone, since he'll be back from suspension. Watson would be no more or less likely to suit up than anybody else once 2023 starts.
Moreover, some of those contracts are stale at this point. Patrick Mahomes isn't a $45M AAV player if he signs his deal in 2023. His deal is 3-4 years old at that point. Same with Josh Allen, Lamar, and anybody else who signs going forward. The money only goes up, not down, almost regardless of player.

We disagree on their long term prognosis. The "salary cap catching up to them" thing only happens when Watson isn't a Brown anymore. We could be looking at 10 years easily if we're being realistic. They only have two years without first round picks, and the Saints gave up a lot more draft capital in past years than the Browns did to get Watson, which really wasn't that big of a haul to begin with.

You are taking 2 different ideas and combing them. He is guaranteed 230m over 5 years with even payout every year. That matters not at all though. From a cap perspective they are going to be paying him 220m over 4 years and he will only be playing football for those 4 years so they are paying 229m for a guy to play QB for them for 4 years with 220m being paid over those 4 years or 55m. That is what they are paying for. From a cap perspective they are paying 220m over 4 years. It doesnt matter that he got 46 million total this year because they made 45m of it guaranteed bonus (to get around a suspension) so only 10m of that cap hit is this year and only 1m do they get back.

Josh Allen is better than Watson and it is not close. He is making 43 so if we were being logical value is somewhere between 40 and 43m per year and they are paying 55m. That is an insane overpay. Mahomes signed his deal specifically so that it would do exactly what it did. His deal was unique which is why Josh Allen did not top it because 43m over that short timeframe with a 2nd big contract would end up being higher than 45m. However both Rodgers and Watson were able to effectively force their teams to above and beyond market value which is a disaster for both teams (already seen the Packers having to let good players go because they cannot afford them anymore).

The salary cap is already catching up to them. They do not have the money to sign any day1 free agent and their own guys. It just simply does not exist so next year so they are going to have to restructure the deals and they will be stuck with trying to find some lower tier starters to fill out their roster. That is the realistic number on the Browns. IF they had been able to trade Baker and get an extra 20m that might have been enough to sign a real player next year and be a real contender but they couldn't (hence why they are so frustrated). Basically they will last through this year and next year but 2024 is the reckoning if they decide to sign their own guys next offseason, which they should.

Their original plan was good, go all in on Watson for the next 3-4 years trade Baker to free up the money to do that and see if you can win something but they made a deal with a devil and now they are bit. They lose year 1, when their roster will be strongest because it is not going to be getting better. They could not trade Baker. This leaves them all in on year 2 on a QB who will have not played a snap in 2 years with players he has never thrown a ball to in a live game and just hoping it clicks. That is now a terrible bet all because they wanted an "adult" in the room (and somehow went with the guy who had, then, 22 sexual assault allegations as the adult).
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor

You are taking 2 different ideas and combing them. He is guaranteed 230m over 5 years with even payout every year. That matters not at all though. From a cap perspective they are going to be paying him 220m over 4 years and he will only be playing football for those 4 years so they are paying 229m for a guy to play QB for them for 4 years with 220m being paid over those 4 years or 55m. That is what they are paying for. From a cap perspective they are paying 220m over 4 years. It doesnt matter that he got 46 million total this year because they made 45m of it guaranteed bonus (to get around a suspension) so only 10m of that cap hit is this year and only 1m do they get back.

Josh Allen is better than Watson and it is not close. He is making 43 so if we were being logical value is somewhere between 40 and 43m per year and they are paying 55m. That is an insane overpay. Mahomes signed his deal specifically so that it would do exactly what it did. His deal was unique which is why Josh Allen did not top it because 43m over that short timeframe with a 2nd big contract would end up being higher than 45m. However both Rodgers and Watson were able to effectively force their teams to above and beyond market value which is a disaster for both teams (already seen the Packers having to let good players go because they cannot afford them anymore).

The salary cap is already catching up to them. They do not have the money to sign any day1 free agent and their own guys. It just simply does not exist so next year so they are going to have to restructure the deals and they will be stuck with trying to find some lower tier starters to fill out their roster. That is the realistic number on the Browns. IF they had been able to trade Baker and get an extra 20m that might have been enough to sign a real player next year and be a real contender but they couldn't (hence why they are so frustrated). Basically they will last through this year and next year but 2024 is the reckoning if they decide to sign their own guys next offseason, which they should.

Their original plan was good, go all in on Watson for the next 3-4 years trade Baker to free up the money to do that and see if you can win something but they made a deal with a devil and now they are bit. They lose year 1, when their roster will be strongest because it is not going to be getting better. They could not trade Baker. This leaves them all in on year 2 on a QB who will have not played a snap in 2 years with players he has never thrown a ball to in a live game and just hoping it clicks. That is now a terrible bet all because they wanted an "adult" in the room (and somehow went with the guy who had, then, 22 sexual assault allegations as the adult).
1. Well it matters a great deal what he gets paid, because cash is arguably more important than cap.
The reality is that $220M won't be for four years... it'll be for longer than that. Because he'll get an extension long before that, and they'll take some of that money and stretch it out into future years.
And that's why the average total is irrelevant. Its variable, not fixed. It can be manipulated, adjusted, etc. The only thing, for sure, is that once cash is paid, eventually, cap follows.
The other reality you're ignoring is that the opportunity cost of paying him for a year where he doesn't play is a HUGE part of this. Deshaun Watson almost certainly doesn't agree to a deal with the Browns if he's getting Josh Allen's contract. That's kind of the whole point.
I'm not going to debate the "rankings of QBs", other than to say that, based on historical performance, you could make a strong argument Watson is better than Allen. Wouldn't be a particularly hard argument to make either.
I think there's some obvious, inherent recency bias in your take.
2. Why do they need money to sign day 1 free agents? What kinds of holes on their roster do they have that the need day 1 FAs to fill them? Why is that important at all?
Already mentioned the fact that you're totally naïve if you think Watson is going to count $55M against the cap next year. He'll be $15-20M less than that, which is all the cap space you'd need to sign literally any non-QB free agent you want. And he's just one restructure. There are other extensions/restructures available, as well as roster cuts.
The real comedy I see here is how you manage to keep shifting the narrative. First it's "they don't have any draft picks", of which they have plenty, and then its "well they can't sign day 1 free agents", which they can.
And if they couldn't, you root for a team that practically never did until about a year or two ago, and were super competitive doing so. Why you think other teams can't do that blows my mind. Especially a team with a pretty good draft track record recently, like the Browns.
 

Ellicottraven

Ravens Ring of Honor
The Greg Roman Bashin is back on the menu boys!




If Snead says the same thing every other receiver said, then it's foolish to keep Roman on staff. That may very well be the reason Lamar isn't showing up. John's ego may be too big to get rid of Roman on Lamar's say-so. Who the heck knows the internal goings-on in Owings Mills?
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
If Snead says the same thing every other receiver said, then it's foolish to keep Roman on staff. That may very well be the reason Lamar isn't showing up. John's ego may be too big to get rid of Roman on Lamar's say-so. Who the heck knows the internal goings-on in Owings Mills?
I'm not sure the "John has too big of an ego to fire coordinators" argument is still one we want to go with...
 

Nurps

Ravens Ring of Honor
My gut says that we want a do-over of what we THOUGHT last season was gonna look like before injuries sank the ship. Hence, Roman is still on the staff. If we dont get back to kicking ass like we did in 19, hes gone. Maybe even in-season.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
Stockley stuck around for awhile longer. I remember him catching passes from Redman. Double checking, he left after the 2002 season.
Okay I guess those years all blend together for me football wise lol, I could’ve sworn I was having a conversation with my uncle about dilfer and stokley leaving back when I was 9 in 01 lol
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
I'm not sure the "John has too big of an ego to fire coordinators" argument is still one we want to go with...
Yeah lol, we had 2 fireable coordinators, one was a fan favorite and the other was the right choice, and harbaugh made that choice, and it took stones to do so, and we were never gonna fire both in one offseason.

I have my issues with Roman, but there’s a solid chance that Roman is the absolute best coordinator for Lamar out there, and it may need fine tuning over the years. There’s maybe 1 or 2 coaching trees that may be better or as effective, but who knows.
 

JAAM

Hall of Famer
The Greg Roman Bashin is back on the menu boys!




This is hilarious. The evidence keeps piling up. Roman’s a fucking bum and should’ve been gone with Wink but whatever. Probably his last season here, or hopefully
 
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