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The Random Thought Thread

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
lowering his base salary to 20m in 2023, would mean you are reducing the salary 26m. Dividing 26m / 4 (23/24/25/26) is 6.5 m

Add 6.5m to all years including 2023, thus that would reduce next years cap hit to 41.5 and increase 24/25/26 6.5m each (rinse and repeat)

and as RMC said, extensions will come in the later years so they can prorate to 4 years.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Yes the base salary can be played with but it's still guaranteed which is the problem for them. Just makes me wonder if they'll have to use extensions even if Watson shits the bed.
IF he shits the bed? No, they'll just have a year or two where they take huge cap hits, then move on.
If he's good, they'll be using lots of extensions, so they'll be able to defer cap space for as long as he's still good.

That's why you see so many teams willing to go so big with some of these contracts. If you get a franchise QB who you think can play for 10-15 years or more, that's the range you're talking about deferring cap hits. It's not like every 5 years you have to take a massive hit.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
lowering his base salary to 20m in 2023, would mean you are reducing the salary 26m. Dividing 26m / 4 (23/24/25/26) is 6.5 m

Add 6.5m to all years including 2023, thus that would reduce next years cap hit to 41.5 and increase 24/25/26 6.5m each (rinse and repeat)
I think they may even go lower than that, but I haven't closely looked at their cap situation for next year. Likely they'll wait until they have a better sense of what the league-wide cap is for 2023. A bit harder to predict, since the TV money is expected to jump.

But I'd generally say his cap hit will be $40M or lower next year.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
I think they may even go lower than that, but I haven't closely looked at their cap situation for next year. Likely they'll wait until they have a better sense of what the league-wide cap is for 2023. A bit harder to predict, since the TV money is expected to jump.

But I'd generally say his cap hit will be $40M or lower next year.
I agree and said I think it will be between 35 and 40m in an earlier post. I was just using a round number and bringing his salary to 20m and showing an example with that.
 

Tank

Hall of Famer
So couple problems with this. Namely, this is a really good structure for the Browns:
1. If people think he's playing 2023 on a $55M cap hit, they're delusional. They'll convert a large chunk of salary to a signing bonus, prorate that, and rinse repeat.
2. If you're saying to yourself "well yeah, but they're just putting more cap into the future", you're right. Except by the time they get to the 2025-2026 timeframe, they'll be talking extension. That extension will involve taking large amounts of his current salaries, converting to bonus, and prorating over the new contract length.

The only way that doesn't happen is if Watson a) sucks and doesn't produce or b) does something ridiculously stupid again.
Not saying either can't happen, but on-field production has never been an issue for Watson.

When Cleveland did this, its pretty clear they view him as the franchise QB for 10-15 years, not 5 years. They structured this contract in a way that pretty much guarantees they can do whatever they want with it, every year, as long as he's performing.
Sure, extensions/restructuring are done all the time. Making the contract fully guaranteed is another story and assuming all the risk is not a good business decision.
 

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
Sure, extensions/restructuring are done all the time. Making the contract fully guaranteed is another story and assuming all the risk is not a good business decision.
and that's another discussion, but my point was a fully guaranteed contract doesn't mean it isn't flexible and can't be restructured.

I'd rather give Lamar a fully guaranteed contract than let him walk though. It's unfortunate.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
lowering his base salary to 20m in 2023, would mean you are reducing the salary 26m. Dividing 26m / 4 (23/24/25/26) is 6.5 m

Add 6.5m to all years including 2023, thus that would reduce next years cap hit to 41.5 and increase 24/25/26 6.5m each (rinse and repeat)

and as RMC said, extensions will come in the later years so they can prorate to 4 years.
Sure, extensions/restructuring are done all the time. Making the contract fully guaranteed is another story and assuming all the risk is not a good business decision.
I never said it was. My point is people think they're stuck with these huge cap hits for the next few years and can't do anything about it.
The only thing that can't be prorated longer than the current contract term is bonuses, of which Watson doesn't currently have a lot of bonuses. Base salaries, no matter what year its for, can theoretically be mostly converted and prorated for up to 5 years, assuming you're willing to give the player extensions.

With franchise QBs playing at a high level, extensions are the norm. You anticipate those even when you sign the first deal. Ravens 100% knew the first 6 year deal they gave Flacco was basically a 3 year deal, that then required another extension. They basically admitted that the day they signed the original deal.

End of day, if the player sucks, the contracts going to be shit, and if he's good, the contract will be fine. I seriously doubt he's going to play like really well the next 2-3 years, then fall off a cliff, where the last year of his deal is garbage. You're going to know pretty quickly whether he's good or not. If he's not, you don't do the extension, and your team sucks for a year or two while you eat the dead money.

One other opinion of mine I'll say...I don't think Owners are scared of guaranteed contracts because of the salary cap. Frankly, half the time, I'm not sure Owners give a shit about the salary cap. It's got limitations, but most teams are smart enough to manipulate through it, and know that, end of day, they can defer if needed.
Owners are scared of guaranteed contracts because of cash flow. Cash flow is what actually goes to the financial statements of the company and what the IRS cares about. They don't want to have a highly diminishing or crippled asset who they have to pay tons and tons of money to. That's the risk.

Teams can make a shit load of bad salary cap moves, and absolve themselves of them within 12-18 months. Can just pile on dead money after dead money and just start from scratch after that. But cash is king. Once you commit to pay somebody, its a wrap.
 

Tank

Hall of Famer
I never said it was. My point is people think they're stuck with these huge cap hits for the next few years and can't do anything about it.
The only thing that can't be prorated longer than the current contract term is bonuses, of which Watson doesn't currently have a lot of bonuses. Base salaries, no matter what year its for, can theoretically be mostly converted and prorated for up to 5 years, assuming you're willing to give the player extensions.

With franchise QBs playing at a high level, extensions are the norm. You anticipate those even when you sign the first deal. Ravens 100% knew the first 6 year deal they gave Flacco was basically a 3 year deal, that then required another extension. They basically admitted that the day they signed the original deal.

End of day, if the player sucks, the contracts going to be shit, and if he's good, the contract will be fine. I seriously doubt he's going to play like really well the next 2-3 years, then fall off a cliff, where the last year of his deal is garbage. You're going to know pretty quickly whether he's good or not. If he's not, you don't do the extension, and your team sucks for a year or two while you eat the dead money.
Sure, fully agree extensions are the norm, but fully guaranteed contracts are not.

If they find out this year or next that he’s not the guy they have 3 or 4 years to eat the massive dead cap, where in the normal contract you would have an out in a year or two, and the reason I still doubt fully guaranteed contracts will ever be the norm.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Sure, fully agree extensions are the norm, but fully guaranteed contracts are not.

If they find out this year or next that he’s not the guy they have 3 or 4 years to eat the massive dead cap, where in the normal contract you would have an out in a year or two, and the reason I still doubt fully guaranteed contracts will ever be the norm.
Well they're not finding out this year, because he'll have barely played.
Realistically, its 2024 before they find out.
Also I fully agree with the Browns in not being concerned about Watson being good. He'll be rusty, but that's not going to take 5 years to come out of. He's a stud QB, everybody knows it.
I wouldn't have given him fully guaranteed because I don't if he'll rape somebody and end up in prison.
 

Tank

Hall of Famer
Healthwise, I agree. But with how young he is, I doubt he does unless some trusted medical professional insists on it.
If he looks at the video of him on the ground maybe he will. He wasn’t even hit that hard and really didn’t hit the ground very hard either. I would hate to see what would happen if really got planted.
 

Old Bay

Veteran
If he looks at the video of him on the ground maybe he will. He wasn’t even hit that hard and really didn’t hit the ground very hard either. I would hate to see what would happen if really got planted.
Yeah I was thinking the same thing on the hit that knocked him out of the Cincy game. It really didn't even look like he took a shot to the head or even hit his head on the ground. Maybe I need to go back and rewatch it, but I can't recall seeing anything. That's what makes me think him coming back into the game the previous week was so much worse. I'm no doctor, but I thought you're more likely to get a concussion when you previously had one--especially a recent one.
 

drjohnnyfever

Pro Bowler
IF he shits the bed? No, they'll just have a year or two where they take huge cap hits, then move on.
If he's good, they'll be using lots of extensions, so they'll be able to defer cap space for as long as he's still good.

That's why you see so many teams willing to go so big with some of these contracts. If you get a franchise QB who you think can play for 10-15 years or more, that's the range you're talking about deferring cap hits. It's not like every 5 years you have to take a massive hit.
This is a good explanation that it's really over 10-15 years if it's a true franchise guy, but aren't they still kicking the can down the road by deferring? I guess they would catch up on the deferrals with signing bonuses as they reup him??? That's my only confusion is they gotta pay what they contractually owe. Why wouldn't they just give the guy a bonus at the end of the year for whatever the team has left over in salary cap? That would be a true, paying ahead of the salary to actually lower the cap hit, right? Or am I just totally off.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
This is a good explanation that it's really over 10-15 years if it's a true franchise guy, but aren't they still kicking the can down the road by deferring? I guess they would catch up on the deferrals with signing bonuses as they reup him??? That's my only confusion is they gotta pay what they contractually owe. Why wouldn't they just give the guy a bonus at the end of the year for whatever the team has left over in salary cap? That would be a true, paying ahead of the salary to actually lower the cap hit, right? Or am I just totally off.
The first part is correct. But in reality, the "deferred" money is just bonus prorations. What franchises are basically saying is "OK, maybe he'll have a $30M dead money cap hit" at the end of the deal. 15 years from now... is that a lot? May be 10% of the salary cap, or less.

I think the "transition" NFL franchises have made is that, basically, dead money is becoming less and less important. It used to be GM's thought that dead money crippled your cap. It really doesn't. I suppose if the cap is $200M and you have $50M in dead cap, that could be a problem, but that's probably a bit excessive. Teams can routinely put out a good product on the field with 10-15% of their cap space being dead money. Perhaps even more.

In terms of the "end of the year" bonus, a) I don't know that the NFL contract structure allows for that and b) teams have no incentive to do that, because they can roll over unused cap space into future years. It's not a "use it or lose it" scenario.
 

cobrajet

Hall of Famer
Losing Mekari and James was rough, but if Stanley can come back, we might be okay. Losing Pierace was huge, but there are guys out there we can still sign. Our biggest lose to me was losing Fuller. Our secondary has been struggling with our rookie corners.
 
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