The Random Thought Thread

[rmcjacket23]

Random and probably a unpopular opinion, but if we sign Dez, I think he might show us a thing or two and surprise us. Vet WRs have served this team well in the past; DMase, Boldin, SSR...

off topic, but should there be a Unpopular Opinion Thread?

Think he will be a lot more Maclin and Crabtree than Steve Smith or Mason...

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Yeah I think its two-fold...

1. I think we need to temper expectations about Campbell a bit. A good player, but he's also getting older, and I don't nearly view him as the kind of guy who's going to go out and be a game wrecker as a pass rusher. If he were lined up opposite like a Chandler Jones, sure, I would never blitz. I think he makes the whole defense better, but I certainly don't think that means we'll get pressure with 4 all the time.
2. If the linebacking core has more speed, and we're able to get better coverage on TEs and RBs with our linebackers and Safeties, it'll just make our blitzes more exotic. We can bring more secondary blitzes, as well as let guys like Queen get after the QB even more than we did with some of our inside backers previously.

Not only is Campbell still a VERY quality player, he is such a monumental improvement over what we had there last year that the difference he provides should be huge.

yes Campbell is not DPOY contending type of player like he was 3 years ago, but he’s still a pro bowl caliber player.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Yeah I think its two-fold...

1. I think we need to temper expectations about Campbell a bit. A good player, but he's also getting older, and I don't nearly view him as the kind of guy who's going to go out and be a game wrecker as a pass rusher. If he were lined up opposite like a Chandler Jones, sure, I would never blitz. I think he makes the whole defense better, but I certainly don't think that means we'll get pressure with 4 all the time.
2. If the linebacking core has more speed, and we're able to get better coverage on TEs and RBs with our linebackers and Safeties, it'll just make our blitzes more exotic. We can bring more secondary blitzes, as well as let guys like Queen get after the QB even more than we did with some of our inside backers previously.

I went back and re read your post and I think I misunderstood the first time lol.

you’re on the money with the blitz idea. If you have the talent to blitz and drop 5-6 every play to cover, do it, pressure is king and it’s RARE that a team has the talent level we have to blitz as much as we do, and if your DC is a mad scientist at dialing up the exotic blitz, all the more reason.

even if we had a chandler jones, still blitz, get those rushers home, make the qb see ghosts, not only are you pressuring them with talent off the edge but you’re also confusing them. I’m a believer in blitzing but only if you have the horses to handle it, when we were blitzing and we had jimmy and Carr and weddle holding it all together, it was a disaster, dropping mosley and weddle from the LOS to show blitz and then cover deep, just ridiculous, but if you have our secondary NOW, blitz, because they’re not gonna get beat often lol.

and even more so now with speed in the LB corps to either get home or drop back, the likes of Patrick queen can handle such a role from what we expect. I like the concept of using speed at LB to blitz more dbs because we now have the guys to cover their ground, that’s what Rex Ryan dreamed of, chuck Clark with this supporting cast could find himself putting up monster numbers this year.

one thing I feel like wink doesn’t do enough of though, is overload blitz, I’d like to see some of that with the talent we have to man up and not get exposed.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Think he will be a lot more Maclin and Crabtree than Steve Smith or Mason...

You are likely correct, but dez Bryant had more talent than those 2 by far, and a year off and a big fat slice of humble pie along with some doubt to piss him off could do a lot for him

 

[NaturalBornHitters]

You are likely correct, but dez Bryant had more talent than those 2 by far, and a year off and a big fat slice of humble pie along with some doubt to piss him off could do a lot for him

I think he was saying Dez will be another Maclin for us.

But I disagree, I posted above. But I think Dez might show us a thing or 2. Time will tell though

 

[Sandtown]

Think he will be a lot more Maclin and Crabtree than Steve Smith or Mason...

Maybe but Dez Bryant situations is a bit different. He also probably has a different mindset than a player like Maclin and Crabtree. He got cut by a team he has played for most of his career and then wasnt able to proof his worth that same year due to a acl tear. He's probably has a huge chip on his shoulder and out to prove alot of people wrong more than Maclin and Crabtee ever did when they was signed by The Ravens.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Maybe but Dez Bryant situations is a bit different. He also probably has a different mindset than a player like Maclin and Crabtree. He got cut by a team he has played for most of his career and then wasnt able to proof his worth that same year due to a acl tear. He's probably has a huge chip on his shoulder and out to prove alot of people wrong more than Maclin and Crabtee ever did when they was signed by The Ravens.

I mean that's fine, but just having a chip on your shoulder isn't nearly enough. His production took a dramatic nose-dive in Dallas before he was released. He still caught TD passes at a high rate, but evaluating WRs based on their ability to catch TDs is widely overrated, due largely to the fact that there's virtually no consistency among any WRs in terms of catching TDs, and its, in some ways, kind of fluky.

You've got a soon-to-be 32 year old WR coming off several years of decline and a major industry, and hasn't played football in over two years. You'd be foolish to think he's anywhere close to his 2012-2014 levels.

I think he's a big body that can help in the red zone. I don't view him as a mismatch for opposing teams any longer, and I think a very strong season for him would be like 40-50 receptions. Keep in mind this is still very much a run-first offense, with several new younger mouths to feed, as well as Andrew and Brown. Its not like there's a lot of targets or reps to be had in this offense.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I think he was saying Dez will be another Maclin for us.

But I disagree, I posted above. But I think Dez might show us a thing or 2. Time will tell though

Still a long ways to go.

Not only does he have to sign here, which he hasn't yet, he also has to make the team, which he hasn't yet.

 

[rmcjacket23]

You are likely correct, but dez Bryant had more talent than those 2 by far, and a year off and a big fat slice of humble pie along with some doubt to piss him off could do a lot for him

I think the key word for me is "had" more talent. I don't really care what he had. I care what he has.

We aren't getting anything out of Dez being more talented than those guys 7 seven years ago. We only get the talent he has now. And that talent, in my eyes, is extremely questionable.

For the price, assuming its bare minimum, I'm all for it. I pretty much never knock any team for signing a veteran for the veteran minimum, especially in camp.

It just wouldn't surprise me if he signs, doesn't make the roster, or ends up having very little value-add during the season. And I'm not certain how comfortable he will be with that to be honest.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I went back and re read your post and I think I misunderstood the first time lol.

you’re on the money with the blitz idea. If you have the talent to blitz and drop 5-6 every play to cover, do it, pressure is king and it’s RARE that a team has the talent level we have to blitz as much as we do, and if your DC is a mad scientist at dialing up the exotic blitz, all the more reason.

even if we had a chandler jones, still blitz, get those rushers home, make the qb see ghosts, not only are you pressuring them with talent off the edge but you’re also confusing them. I’m a believer in blitzing but only if you have the horses to handle it, when we were blitzing and we had jimmy and Carr and weddle holding it all together, it was a disaster, dropping mosley and weddle from the LOS to show blitz and then cover deep, just ridiculous, but if you have our secondary NOW, blitz, because they’re not gonna get beat often lol.

and even more so now with speed in the LB corps to either get home or drop back, the likes of Patrick queen can handle such a role from what we expect. I like the concept of using speed at LB to blitz more dbs because we now have the guys to cover their ground, that’s what Rex Ryan dreamed of, chuck Clark with this supporting cast could find himself putting up monster numbers this year.

one thing I feel like wink doesn’t do enough of though, is overload blitz, I’d like to see some of that with the talent we have to man up and not get exposed.

The other aspect to consider is... blitzing less doesn't mean the defense won't be as effective. Its all about perception really.

Romo always loves to watch our defense, because on 3rd down, we've got like 8 guys at the LOS, and the QB has a few seconds to decide who's coming and who's not. A lot of the times we're blitzing, but if 4 of those guys drop back into coverage, the QB has to be able to process who's coming, who's not, and do that in like less than 3 seconds. Because if he misdiagnoses it, even if he has plenty of time to throw, he's now throwing into coverage that he wasn't expect in his pre-snap reads. That can turn into turnovers, incompletions, etc. just like blitzing can turn into sacks. He may be calling a slant on a hot route into an area of the defense where he read no defender would be there, and now all of the sudden, there's a linebacker in the coverage area who was at the LOS before the snap. Its all about deception.

That deception isn't going to stop with Calais on the team. The only thing we pretty much know Calais won't be doing much of is dropping into coverage. Everything else is the same. We're going to show many looks, and force the QB to decide who to account for and who not to. And maybe we bring 1-2 guys less than last year because Calais can get more pressure. That's totally fine. As long as its not vanilla and the QB can diagnose it, you can be very successful on defense rushing 3-4 guys all day long.

 

[rossihunter2]

Something that keeps being mentioned is how much Wink blitzed last year, and how having Calais Campbell means you’re gonna have better pass rush and you can drop another guy in coverage bla bla, I don’t think that’s what’s gonna happen, I think Wink is gonna blitz just as much without a second thought, and continue to let talent win on the back end, and just get way way way more sacks

exactly - why would wink change his philosophy when it was working with a very sub-par front 7 - he's now got speed and power all over the front 7 to work with and tavon young back in the slot (excellent blitzer) - all he's going to do is add extra talent to those blitz packages and speed up those throws even more

the secondary is stacked so we want the QB to throw quickly while we control the tempo of the play on defence - if we drop more we may end up with more 4-man pressures but ultimately we're adding extra players to the strength of our defence that was already holding up its end

i think you're 100% right, wink is gonna blitz as much as he can just like last year as long as the secondary holds up and right now we probably have the best secondary in the league with ball hawks everywhere

 

[rossihunter2]

Random and probably a unpopular opinion, but if we sign Dez, I think he might show us a thing or two and surprise us. Vet WRs have served this team well in the past; DMase, Boldin, SSR...

off topic, but should there be a Unpopular Opinion Thread?

idk - not sure it would get used very often tbh

not sure its that unpopular the idea of signing dez - at the rate he'd be signed at it's unlikely that there's any risk or guarantee of a roster spot attached so if he makes it then cool

 

[rossihunter2]

one thing I feel like wink doesn’t do enough of though, is overload blitz, I’d like to see some of that with the talent we have to man up and not get exposed.

we saw some of that in key moments the last 2 years - the 0-blitz - but he doesnt like to over-use it because part of the effectiveness is that the opposition have no idea it's coming

 

[rossihunter2]

I think he was saying Dez will be another Maclin for us.

But I disagree, I posted above. But I think Dez might show us a thing or 2. Time will tell though

obviously it's workouts in shorts etc. but dez looked pretty good in those offseason workouts he's posted

 

[rossihunter2]

The other aspect to consider is... blitzing less doesn't mean the defense won't be as effective. Its all about perception really.

Romo always loves to watch our defense, because on 3rd down, we've got like 8 guys at the LOS, and the QB has a few seconds to decide who's coming and who's not. A lot of the times we're blitzing, but if 4 of those guys drop back into coverage, the QB has to be able to process who's coming, who's not, and do that in like less than 3 seconds. Because if he misdiagnoses it, even if he has plenty of time to throw, he's now throwing into coverage that he wasn't expect in his pre-snap reads. That can turn into turnovers, incompletions, etc. just like blitzing can turn into sacks. He may be calling a slant on a hot route into an area of the defense where he read no defender would be there, and now all of the sudden, there's a linebacker in the coverage area who was at the LOS before the snap. Its all about deception.

That deception isn't going to stop with Calais on the team. The only thing we pretty much know Calais won't be doing much of is dropping into coverage. Everything else is the same. We're going to show many looks, and force the QB to decide who to account for and who not to. And maybe we bring 1-2 guys less than last year because Calais can get more pressure. That's totally fine. As long as its not vanilla and the QB can diagnose it, you can be very successful on defense rushing 3-4 guys all day long.

one of my favourites where wink just out-thought and beat the opponent was against the Patriots and he got Tom Brady... we had tons of guys at the LoS in a pretty normal alignment pre-snap (Bowser, Judon on the left side with michael pierce in the middle, chuck clark stood up near the C and Ward and Ferguson outside of Pierce to the right with Earl Thomas sort of prowling around Ferguson's shoulder) - so that's 7 guys at the LoS, chuck drops early and bails away and moves slightly towards ward's side and earl thomas makes it really clear he's coming

but post-snap both bowser and judon drop leaving Michael Pierce triple-teamed by the C, RG and RT and then everyone else comes after the QB including clark who made it look like he was bailing - Ward stunts inside and Ferguson does a normal outside ark which leaves the RB to block both clark and thomas coming through the hole - 6 blockers, 5 rushers and yet we've got without anyone doing anything a free rusher on Tom Brady who has to run for his life and throw it away - the play is dead as soon as it's snapped

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I think the key word for me is "had" more talent. I don't really care what he had. I care what he has.

We aren't getting anything out of Dez being more talented than those guys 7 seven years ago. We only get the talent he has now. And that talent, in my eyes, is extremely questionable.

For the price, assuming its bare minimum, I'm all for it. I pretty much never knock any team for signing a veteran for the veteran minimum, especially in camp.

It just wouldn't surprise me if he signs, doesn't make the roster, or ends up having very little value-add during the season. And I'm not certain how comfortable he will be with that to be honest.

I feel like you may be underrating him a bit though. Someone compiled a video of Dez’ last full season with the cowboys and every pass attempt his way, that decline In production can’t be entirely, but it can be largely attributed to dak. He was so consistently inaccurate that season throwing to dez, just horrible ball placement, but the one area where dez was still producing was where there didn’t need to be any kind of timing or precise placement, if dak could just lob one up for dez to get it(redzone) then he was remarkably effective, but hitting him on outs and slants and deep ins there seemed to be a ton of passes that were zipped wel over his head.

 

[rossihunter2]

I feel like you may be underrating him a bit though. Someone compiled a video of Dez’ last full season with the cowboys and every pass attempt his way, that decline In production can’t be entirely, but it can be largely attributed to dak. He was so consistently inaccurate that season throwing to dez, just horrible ball placement, but the one area where dez was still producing was where there didn’t need to be any kind of timing or precise placement, if dak could just lob one up for dez to get it(redzone) then he was remarkably effective, but hitting him on outs and slants and deep ins there seemed to be a ton of passes that were zipped wel over his head.

the targets you cant really put on him but there were still too many drops at the end of his career - either way there's no harm in bringing him in and seeing if there's anything left in the tank

 

[Sandtown]

I mean that's fine, but just having a chip on your shoulder isn't nearly enough. His production took a dramatic nose-dive in Dallas before he was released. He still caught TD passes at a high rate, but evaluating WRs based on their ability to catch TDs is widely overrated, due largely to the fact that there's virtually no consistency among any WRs in terms of catching TDs, and its, in some ways, kind of fluky.

You've got a soon-to-be 32 year old WR coming off several years of decline and a major industry, and hasn't played football in over two years. You'd be foolish to think he's anywhere close to his 2012-2014 level

You make some good points. When it comes to Dez Bryant all of his career he relied on his physical ability to make plays. In Dallas his route running ability wasnt really diverse. He has never been a great route runner or crafty one at that. In the later portion in his career it seems like he dealt with injuries which may have affected his play along with a change at quarterback from the Romo to Prescott era. That part really isnt important but from my understanding is that Dez Bryant realize one of his flaws in his game was his route running ability.

He realized that he needed to learn
how to play smart as he got older which is why he has been training with Wr coach/ Guru by the name of David Robinson for the past two years. I dont expect Dez Bryant to be the Dez of old but if he can still make contested catches and be that reliable big possession receiver that so happened became more advanced with his route running then that may be a plus for The Ravens if he ends up being signed.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

the targets you cant really put on him but there were still too many drops at the end of his career - either way there's no harm in bringing him in and seeing if there's anything left in the tank

He did have a lot of drops but alot of those drops were questionable passes as well, not all but a good number of them were those “catchable” passes that weren’t THAT catchable.

and don’t think I’m saying I expect dez Bryant to be some world beater, I think it’s a stretch for him to even get signed here(I say that because I think we like our wr room and we may not see room for him), but I do think that the super harsh analysis of him and saying definitively that his abilities have completely disappeared since 2017 is a little unwarranted, he was still productive though definitely on a decline, and his injury and reputation combined to basically make him a non factor in the market, it’s not like he completely fell off the planet talent wise, we have evidence of a decline, not a complete loss of ability, everything else was extrapolated

 

[Deebo813]

From what i remember.. Dez couldnt get any separation whats so ever. However, i still think because of his physicality he can contribute in some way on our team. Cant be any worse than boykin was last season.