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The Random Thought Thread

drjohnnyfever

Pro Bowler
Something I've been thinking about is I think for an offense to truly be at the level of best in the league, it needs to break the barrier or 3 legitimate receiving weapons. Look no further than your superbowl matchup.

Evans
Godwin
Brown

Tyreek
Kelce
Watkins/Robinson/Hardman

The Ravens have Hollywood and Mandrews. I'm wondering if we had even just one more PREMIER receiving threat whether we'd see a huge boon in our passing attack. We know we have basically the best running game and rushing QB, EDC you gotta find a way to get Lamar just one more guy.

THIS, I think the trade of Hurst was a loss we felt all year. Of course Boyle going down was it's own problem. But for the reason you state, we were much more effective in 2019 having 3 guys who could catch the ball and reliably find soft spots in DEF's. It's why I'm hoping a TE is in our draft future. Hollywood and Hurst, mostly, but, Boyle, and Sneed all combined to be that 3rd last year. But we still need a dynamic OFF passing system. What we have is a jalopy no matter who we put in the present system.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
I love Cudi but STOP
you kidding me? do you know who travis scott credits as the man who literally made him want to be a musician? do you know who paved the way for the weirdos like travis scott? kid cudi was the mastermind behind 808s and heartbreak. theres a reason kanye went after kid cudi HARD in 2008 and signed him and gave him major creative control, signing kid cudi was a major turning point in kanye's career as far as his growth and creativity goes, and kanye would not hesitate to credit cudi for this, a whole generation of rappers right now will credit cudi as their first major inspiration.

show some respect lol. way off topic though
 

JAAM

Hall of Famer
you kidding me? do you know who travis scott credits as the man who literally made him want to be a musician? do you know who paved the way for the weirdos like travis scott? kid cudi was the mastermind behind 808s and heartbreak. theres a reason kanye went after kid cudi HARD in 2008 and signed him and gave him major creative control, signing kid cudi was a major turning point in kanye's career as far as his growth and creativity goes, and kanye would not hesitate to credit cudi for this, a whole generation of rappers right now will credit cudi as their first major inspiration.

show some respect lol. way off topic though
Haha I know big dog!! Cudi is my second favorite artist of all time and he doesn’t get enough respect. I am a Kanye Stan though. Let’s just agree we have amazing taste in music hahaha. I do like some Scott songs
 

JAAM

Hall of Famer
I didn’t know Jim Leonhard was such a hot commodity. Apparently he turned down the DC job for Green Bay. Proud of my boy for getting interest but he loves being at Wisconsin
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
Haha I know big dog!! Cudi is my second favorite artist of all time and he doesn’t get enough respect. I am a Kanye Stan though. Let’s just agree we have amazing taste in music hahaha. I do like some Scott songs
i respect it lol, i love kanye instrumentals and his first 3 albums, not a stan, i respect his genius all the way though.

cudi is my #1 all time lol. AKNC grabbed my ear hard in 08 and ive been a stan ever since
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Yeah my wording should have been better. We ran a lot of them, but didn't throw a ton of them

i think partly that's because defences adjusted - it's one of the most common RPO routes (running backside slant(s)) - not that we run a ton of slants but we were very much that kind of offence and without the threat over the top it allows safeties and guys to bite on the underneath routes without much threat of being punished over the top

this is all hypothesis - i havent got the numbers of film analysis breaking that down - but that would be my guess - it was just another way that defences were taking away the middle of the field
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
i think partly that's because defences adjusted - it's one of the most common RPO routes (running backside slant(s)) - not that we run a ton of slants but we were very much that kind of offence and without the threat over the top it allows safeties and guys to bite on the underneath routes without much threat of being punished over the top

this is all hypothesis - i havent got the numbers of film analysis breaking that down - but that would be my guess - it was just another way that defences were taking away the middle of the field

That seems super reasonable. @JoeyFlex5 has been begging for someone who can win at the boundary. Is there a guy in your deep dive of prospects who looks like he can be that guy?
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
That seems super reasonable. @JoeyFlex5 has been begging for someone who can win at the boundary. Is there a guy in your deep dive of prospects who looks like he can be that guy?

to me it doesnt look like a great "big body" class - and even those boundary, good at the catch-point guys aren't all that big this year anyway

Rashod Bateman is 6'1 210lbs and an exceptional route runner with a penchant for making incredible catches who tracks the ball really well (im super high on Bateman)

Ja'Marr Chase is 6'1 208lbs who's about as dominant at the catch-point as ive seen from a college prospect, he's got some route-running deficiencies (and problems getting off press) right now that would need development but he's a very explosive athlete with tons of tools to be very successful - he plays a lot bigger than his size

Terrace Marshall Jr is 6'3 200lbs and has the prototypical body and athleticism and quick feet that any team would want at the position - but he had a few drops in 2020 (although tbf i dont foresee that being an issue in the NFL) - but he's not a good route-runner right now and doesn't create a ton of separation - seems to do his best work out of the slot (which is obviously not who you're looking for on the boundary lol)

Tylan Wallace is 5'11 193lbs which obviously isn't the frame that you'd normally expect out of a boundary receiver - he's a good route runner and really successful at the catch-point (great hands, body control, ball-tracking etc... makes some crazy catches) - there's some athleticism question-marks about him but he seems to threaten DBs vertically on his tape which suggests he's not going to be limited by that in the NFL

Cornell Powell is 6'0 200lbs is a really interesting prospect because he hardly played until this year for Clemson (tbf he's been stuck behind a ton of receiving talent) - so there's not a ton of examples of him making contested catches on the boundary but he looks like an interesting outside WR (i personally like him a lot) - he looks good against press, is a really nice route-runner and got good hands and he's physical through his route - just such a limited sample size vs most of the other prospects in the class

Frank Darby is 6'1 200lbs who plays bigger than his size - he's physical, tough, competitive - doesn't have blazing speed but seems to be able to stack well vertically - good hands and he's aggressive at the catch-point - he seems to struggle decelerating and breaking back towards the QB which gives corners the opportunity to close on the ball underneath - but otherwise his route running is pretty nice

There's some other guys but these are probably the top options:

  • Seth Williams is highly regarded by some but I've got a ton of issues with him as a prospect - seems to me to have low effort and some moments that suggest to me he has poor awareness and not a ton of intensity either
  • Ihmir Smith-Marsette is really raw and not the best playing through contact - probably a gadget guy/slot early - really suffered from awful QB play which makes him hard to evaluate
  • Austin Watkins Jr has prototypical size and some nice route running and nice ball skills but doesnt get a ton of separation - he probably fits your mould quite well
  • Dez Fitzpatrick is a nice athlete albeit not super-twitchy with some intelligent route-running - fights through contact through his routes and adjusts well at the catch-point and has good hands - tends to fade in and out of games (might be because of awful QB play) - fun fact though he played with Lamar in 2017 - he was the standout receiver in the senior bowl game
  • Trevon Grimes has the kind of body and playing style you're talking about - ive got a lot of questions about his long-speed but he's got some nice nuance to his route-running and carries speed well through his cuts - could become a nice pro especially in a possession receiver type role (not sure how effective he'll be vertically at the next level)
  • Josh Imatorbhebhe is an awesome athlete who offers size and length and explosion both downfield and the elite ability to elevate above the rim and high-point the ball - super raw prospect - he's about as developmental as a prospect gets - but an absolutely outrageous athlete especially his vertical jumping ability
  • Tamarrion Terry is again a crazy athlete for his size especially his lateral quickness and he has a massive wingspan - but there's a ton of body catches on his tape and drops too - and he seems to shy away from contested situations (not sure how much he relishes contact) - seems to be over-thinking during his routes - another developmental guy
  • Josh Palmer has a great catch radius and great hands but looks like a pretty limited athlete - he's good fighting through contact during his routes but that's because he doesn't seem to be able to separate
  • Sage Surrat uses his body well to create leverage at the catch-point and tracks the ball well - limited athlete - despite his size seems to get beaten up vs press - seems to have the mentality after the catch of someone smaller than him - has some route running but idk that he's good enough at it for it to be a calling card - not sure how he'll win in the NFL
  • Simi Fehoko has a huge frame and maybe has some build-up speed in a straight line - some drops and some incomplete passes down to lack of awareness on the sideline and some body catches too - generally good hands otherwise - better vs zone than vs man - CBs sit on the underneath stuff because they aren't afraid of him vertically

everyone else who could be a big body boundary type that ive watched has ended up with a udfa grade i think - and some of the above guys might be udfa grades when i finally get to more of their tape later in the process

TL;DR... that's probably more detail than you were asking for lol but those 16 names are the ones to look at if you're looking for that type of receiver but I'd personally start with Chase, Bateman, Wallace, Darby, Seth Williams, Trevon Grimes and Sage Surratt (i personally am not a fan of Williams or Surratt but many do like them)

EDIT: to add Nico Collins to the list (can't believe I forgot to add him) - 6'4 222lbs and he can move - showed at the senior bowl some nice releases vs press coverage and the ability to fight through contact - has some decent route-running and stacks well vertically - going to be a beast in the redzone - better on in-breaking routes than out-breaking right now
 
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UPennChem

Hall of Famer
to me it doesnt look like a great "big body" class - and even those boundary, good at the catch-point guys aren't all that big this year anyway

Rashod Bateman is 6'1 210lbs and an exceptional route runner with a penchant for making incredible catches who tracks the ball really well (im super high on Bateman)

Ja'Marr Chase is 6'1 208lbs who's about as dominant at the catch-point as ive seen from a college prospect, he's got some route-running deficiencies (and problems getting off press) right now that would need development but he's a very explosive athlete with tons of tools to be very successful - he plays a lot bigger than his size

Terrace Marshall Jr is 6'3 200lbs and has the prototypical body and athleticism and quick feet that any team would want at the position - but he had a few drops in 2020 (although tbf i dont foresee that being an issue in the NFL) - but he's not a good route-runner right now and doesn't create a ton of separation - seems to do his best work out of the slot (which is obviously not who you're looking for on the boundary lol)

Tylan Wallace is 5'11 193lbs which obviously isn't the frame that you'd normally expect out of a boundary receiver - he's a good route runner and really successful at the catch-point (great hands, body control, ball-tracking etc... makes some crazy catches) - there's some athleticism question-marks about him but he seems to threaten DBs vertically on his tape which suggests he's not going to be limited by that in the NFL

Cornell Powell is 6'0 200lbs is a really interesting prospect because he hardly played until this year for Clemson (tbf he's been stuck behind a ton of receiving talent) - so there's not a ton of examples of him making contested catches on the boundary but he looks like an interesting outside WR (i personally like him a lot) - he looks good against press, is a really nice route-runner and got good hands and he's physical through his route - just such a limited sample size vs most of the other prospects in the class

Frank Darby is 6'1 200lbs who plays bigger than his size - he's physical, tough, competitive - doesn't have blazing speed but seems to be able to stack well vertically - good hands and he's aggressive at the catch-point - he seems to struggle decelerating and breaking back towards the QB which gives corners the opportunity to close on the ball underneath - but otherwise his route running is pretty nice

There's some other guys but these are probably the top options:

  • Seth Williams is highly regarded by some but I've got a ton of issues with him as a prospect - seems to me to have low effort and some moments that suggest to me he has poor awareness and not a ton of intensity either
  • Ihmir Smith-Marsette is really raw and not the best playing through contact - probably a gadget guy/slot early - really suffered from awful QB play which makes him hard to evaluate
  • Austin Watkins Jr has prototypical size and some nice route running and nice ball skills but doesnt get a ton of separation - he probably fits your mould quite well
  • Dez Fitzpatrick is a nice athlete albeit not super-twitchy with some intelligent route-running - fights through contact through his routes and adjusts well at the catch-point and has good hands - tends to fade in and out of games (might be because of awful QB play) - fun fact though he played with Lamar in 2017 - he was the standout receiver in the senior bowl game
  • Trevon Grimes has the kind of body and playing style you're talking about - ive got a lot of questions about his long-speed but he's got some nice nuance to his route-running and carries speed well through his cuts - could become a nice pro especially in a possession receiver type role (not sure how effective he'll be vertically at the next level)
  • Josh Imatorbhebhe is an awesome athlete who offers size and length and explosion both downfield and the elite ability to elevate above the rim and high-point the ball - super raw prospect - he's about as developmental as a prospect gets - but an absolutely outrageous athlete especially his vertical jumping ability
  • Tamarrion Terry is again a crazy athlete for his size especially his lateral quickness and he has a massive wingspan - but there's a ton of body catches on his tape and drops too - and he seems to shy away from contested situations (not sure how much he relishes contact) - seems to be over-thinking during his routes - another developmental guy
  • Josh Palmer has a great catch radius and great hands but looks like a pretty limited athlete - he's good fighting through contact during his routes but that's because he doesn't seem to be able to separate
  • Sage Surrat uses his body well to create leverage at the catch-point and tracks the ball well - limited athlete - despite his size seems to get beaten up vs press - seems to have the mentality after the catch of someone smaller than him - has some route running but idk that he's good enough at it for it to be a calling card - not sure how he'll win in the NFL
  • Simi Fehoko has a huge frame and maybe has some build-up speed in a straight line - some drops and some incomplete passes down to lack of awareness on the sideline and some body catches too - generally good hands otherwise - better vs zone than vs man - CBs sit on the underneath stuff because they aren't afraid of him vertically

everyone else who could be a big body boundary type that ive watched has ended up with a udfa grade i think - and some of the above guys might be udfa grades when i finally get to more of their tape later in the process

TL;DR... that's probably more detail than you were asking for lol but those 16 names are the ones to look at if you're looking for that type of receiver but I'd personally start with Chase, Bateman, Wallace, Darby, Seth Williams, Trevon Grimes and Sage Surratt (i personally am not a fan of Williams or Surratt but many do like them)

Wow that was so thorough!! Thank you so much, much appreciation. I'm going to start diving in myself now. All I can tell you right this second is I am high on Bateman too because I watched a ton of him when I was scouting Tyler Johnson last year. I loved Johnson, but it was always clear Bateman was the top guy. I'm hoping he we get a shot at him.
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
That seems super reasonable. @JoeyFlex5 has been begging for someone who can win at the boundary. Is there a guy in your deep dive of prospects who looks like he can be that guy?
outside of bateman and nico collins, and sort of terrace marshall, im not too high on any receivers in this class that could play on the boundary in the nfl. i was really high on marshall at one point but ive soured, too raw for his first round price tag.

and when i say i want a guy to play on the boundary i dont necessarily mean a big jump ball specialist, i want a guy who can win the leverage battle without having to be mismatched to a LB, a guy who can establish his place in the stem with a cb1 playing press while isloated out wide, a guy who actually takes advantage of the single coverage we force across the board. hollywood can take advantage but only on a limited basis because hes just so little that if he doesnt win off the snap with speed and quickness he can be removed from the play, and at his size the window is just smaller on fades and it requires extra hangtime on the ball to ensure its out of the cbs reach, i just want a guy where this is less of a concern. devonta smith isnt a jumpball specialist but hes an elite route runner with enough length to have a much bigger throwing window on those sorts of isolated downfield throws.

really i just want a guy to be more dependable when we get them 1v1 opportunities, it just so happens those 1v1 opportunities right now come on the boundary, and boykin doesnt take advantage, and hollywood only does sometimes and he does the most damage from the slot.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Wow that was so thorough!! Thank you so much, much appreciation. I'm going to start diving in myself now. All I can tell you right this second is I am high on Bateman too because I watched a ton of him when I was scouting Tyler Johnson last year. I loved Johnson, but it was always clear Bateman was the top guy. I'm hoping he we get a shot at him.

not thorough enough lol - i forgot to put Nico Collins on the list who's one of the better examples of that type of receiver lol

if we have a chance at Bateman we absolutely should pull the trigger
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
outside of bateman and nico collins, and sort of terrace marshall, im not too high on any receivers in this class that could play on the boundary in the nfl. i was really high on marshall at one point but ive soured, too raw for his first round price tag.

and when i say i want a guy to play on the boundary i dont necessarily mean a big jump ball specialist, i want a guy who can win the leverage battle without having to be mismatched to a LB, a guy who can establish his place in the stem with a cb1 playing press while isloated out wide, a guy who actually takes advantage of the single coverage we force across the board. hollywood can take advantage but only on a limited basis because hes just so little that if he doesnt win off the snap with speed and quickness he can be removed from the play, and at his size the window is just smaller on fades and it requires extra hangtime on the ball to ensure its out of the cbs reach, i just want a guy where this is less of a concern. devonta smith isnt a jumpball specialist but hes an elite route runner with enough length to have a much bigger throwing window on those sorts of isolated downfield throws.

really i just want a guy to be more dependable when we get them 1v1 opportunities, it just so happens those 1v1 opportunities right now come on the boundary, and boykin doesnt take advantage, and hollywood only does sometimes and he does the most damage from the slot.

yeah if we're just talking outside receivers who can win vs press - there's a lot more options - devonta smith, bateman (again), dyami brown (sort of), d'wayne eskridge, cornell powell all sort of fit that mould (partly why im so high on powell) - eskridge obviously only played against lower level competition but of the small fast guys (typically slot) he's the one who's shown that he can beat press and win outside most consistently
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
yeah if we're just talking outside receivers who can win vs press - there's a lot more options - devonta smith, bateman (again), dyami brown (sort of), d'wayne eskridge, cornell powell all sort of fit that mould (partly why im so high on powell) - eskridge obviously only played against lower level competition but of the small fast guys (typically slot) he's the one who's shown that he can beat press and win outside most consistently
im hearing a lot about eskridge and powell lately, god damn i cant keep up with all the names that keep popping up lol.

this looks like the most loaded short-quick-route runner class of all time
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
im hearing a lot about eskridge and powell lately, god damn i cant keep up with all the names that keep popping up lol.

this looks like the most loaded short-quick-route runner class of all time

you'd be hearing a lot about them lately because they both just did well at the senior bowl - ive been looking out for powell since i got pointed out to him just before the CFB semi-final where he put shaun wade in a tumble dryer

and eskridge i found out about doing stuff before the senior bowl and loved his tape - was very predictable that he was gonna start being talked about a ton as a small-school guy after he was basically uncoverable all week at the senior bowl - probably gonna run in the 4.3s too to add to everything you see on tape
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
outside of bateman and nico collins, and sort of terrace marshall, im not too high on any receivers in this class that could play on the boundary in the nfl. i was really high on marshall at one point but ive soured, too raw for his first round price tag.

and when i say i want a guy to play on the boundary i dont necessarily mean a big jump ball specialist, i want a guy who can win the leverage battle without having to be mismatched to a LB, a guy who can establish his place in the stem with a cb1 playing press while isloated out wide, a guy who actually takes advantage of the single coverage we force across the board. hollywood can take advantage but only on a limited basis because hes just so little that if he doesnt win off the snap with speed and quickness he can be removed from the play, and at his size the window is just smaller on fades and it requires extra hangtime on the ball to ensure its out of the cbs reach, i just want a guy where this is less of a concern. devonta smith isnt a jumpball specialist but hes an elite route runner with enough length to have a much bigger throwing window on those sorts of isolated downfield throws.

really i just want a guy to be more dependable when we get them 1v1 opportunities, it just so happens those 1v1 opportunities right now come on the boundary, and boykin doesnt take advantage, and hollywood only does sometimes and he does the most damage from the slot.

Makes total sense. I'm hoping we can find that guy ASAP
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Just a total hot takes question. Does Kadarius Toney have a place in this offense?

i mean he creates separation with his awesome and explosive ability change of direction and gets a ton of YAC - not gonna be an outside receiver but why wouldn't he have a place?

he's got lots of manufactured touches in college but that's not all he can do

there are certainly WRs i'd prefer over him... at the moment he's my WR 8 but he's got a 2nd round grade from me
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
i mean he creates separation with his awesome and explosive ability change of direction and gets a ton of YAC - not gonna be an outside receiver but why wouldn't he have a place?

he's got lots of manufactured touches in college but that's not all he can do

there are certainly WRs i'd prefer over him... at the moment he's my WR 8 but he's got a 2nd round grade from me

I agree with all of that. Let me rephrase the question. Does the Ravens offense have the ability to bring the best out of him like the season we just saw our of him. You got exactly at my points. He's not going to play outside and there was a lot of manufactured touches for him.
 
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