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The Random Thought Thread

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
I agree with all of that. Let me rephrase the question. Does the Ravens offense have the ability to bring the best out of him like the season we just saw our of him. You got exactly at my points. He's not going to play outside and there was a lot of manufactured touches for him.

I think he'd make an impact out of the slot early - his ability to change direction gives him a leg up on duvernay there

like most WRs he'd probably be more productive on other teams - i dont think he's the best fit here - there's other guys i'd prefer - he's not a guy ill be clamouring for but im not going to turn down that talent if he's BPA when we're on the board

i think there's a few guys like that who probably won't be fits here - speaking of tee martin who we've just hired as WRs coach, his son Amari Rodgers probably isn't a great fit here either - similarly a manufactured touches guy who's all about YAC out of the slot (but who doesn't have the change of direction explosion that Toney has)

but then I look at a guy like Rondale Moore who's got a similar college role and find it hard to project him to the ravens but also think his ability to make plays is more undeniable and electric - Toney's got awesome change of direction ability but Moore's is insane - and he's also better in contested situations and in press

the other thing that hurts toney a little in terms of his value is that while he's a nice prospect - there's some slightly shorter slightly less refined but just as twitchy and exciting athletes available later in the draft who fulfil similar roles as a prospect but might be available on day 3 - jaelon darden, dazz newsome, amari rodgers (a bit less twitchy), demetric felton, tutu atwell, whop philyor and probably a couple of others who i cant name off the top of my head
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer


my god - lol - we went 14-2 last year and lost no one yet this year it's now like 7 guys lol what????

not only are we losing positional coaches we're losing assistants too - think we're gonna have to hire at least a couple of coaching analysts/quality control guys to fill out the bottom of the positional staff because the cupboard's basically bare there now

we've lost...
offence:
Culley
Bischoff

defence:
Macdonald
Culley
Lucas
Orr
Minter

we currently have no WR coach and no offensive assistants other than craig ver steeg (RBs but basically just an assistant wherever we want him to be lol - he's done QBs, OL, quality control, general offensive assistant stuff) and richard angulo (assistant OL)

and on defence we've got all the main positional roles filled but we've got no assistants at all on staff except for 1 guy in the analytics department who's only been around for a year

we've got to fill out this staff a bit lol

I hope we either hire some younger guys or guys that can adj
Elliott doesn’t get enough credit tbh, I think he could be a pro bowler.

also, don’t disrespect Travis Scott fr
I really think our safties are terrible not
gonna lie.
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
I think he'd make an impact out of the slot early - his ability to change direction gives him a leg up on duvernay there

like most WRs he'd probably be more productive on other teams - i dont think he's the best fit here - there's other guys i'd prefer - he's not a guy ill be clamouring for but im not going to turn down that talent if he's BPA when we're on the board

i think there's a few guys like that who probably won't be fits here - speaking of tee martin who we've just hired as WRs coach, his son Amari Rodgers probably isn't a great fit here either - similarly a manufactured touches guy who's all about YAC out of the slot (but who doesn't have the change of direction explosion that Toney has)

but then I look at a guy like Rondale Moore who's got a similar college role and find it hard to project him to the ravens but also think his ability to make plays is more undeniable and electric - Toney's got awesome change of direction ability but Moore's is insane - and he's also better in contested situations and in press

the other thing that hurts toney a little in terms of his value is that while he's a nice prospect - there's some slightly shorter slightly less refined but just as twitchy and exciting athletes available later in the draft who fulfil similar roles as a prospect but might be available on day 3 - jaelon darden, dazz newsome, amari rodgers (a bit less twitchy), demetric felton, tutu atwell, whop philyor and probably a couple of others who i cant name off the top of my head

Hard to argue with any of that. Guy is twitchy AF and had a nice senior bowl. EDC said he wanted a track team around Lamar. We have Hollywood and JK ain't too shabby. Boykin was supposed to be a part of that team, but hasn't turned out well. Idk, could be that someone who is absolutely lethal in the slot could help fix our outside problems?? Man, the season is not even over and I'm itching to see what we do.
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer
Something I've been thinking about is I think for an offense to truly be at the level of best in the league, it needs to break the barrier or 3 legitimate receiving weapons. Look no further than your superbowl matchup.

Evans
Godwin
Brown

Tyreek
Kelce
Watkins/Robinson/Hardman

The Ravens have Hollywood and Mandrews. I'm wondering if we had even just one more PREMIER receiving threat whether we'd see a huge boon in our passing attack. We know we have basically the best running game and rushing QB, EDC you gotta find a way to get Lamar just one more guy.
People overrate hardman, watkins and robinson because pat
Throws them the ball.. those 3 guys are not what they seem.
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer
This feels like the most hyped “WR1 to ravens” offseason ever, which is saying a lot considering our offseason story for 24 years straight has been “ravens need a wr”

Seems every sports outlet has a front page article on the topic these days. Black Adam schefter worded a post in a way that almost made me piss my pants because I thought we traded for Julio
Lmao.. that wouldve been crazy.
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
People overrate hardman, watkins and robinson because pat
Throws them the ball.. those 3 guys are not what they seem.

This is true and not true. I agree they are all clearly not as good as Tyreek or Kelce or other top pass catchers on other teams. However, it seems like in every game, and it rotates, one of them steps up and has a big game as that number 3. So for them you're right, none of those guys is consistently key each week, but the number 3 spot always shows up.
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer
to me it doesnt look like a great "big body" class - and even those boundary, good at the catch-point guys aren't all that big this year anyway

Rashod Bateman is 6'1 210lbs and an exceptional route runner with a penchant for making incredible catches who tracks the ball really well (im super high on Bateman)

Ja'Marr Chase is 6'1 208lbs who's about as dominant at the catch-point as ive seen from a college prospect, he's got some route-running deficiencies (and problems getting off press) right now that would need development but he's a very explosive athlete with tons of tools to be very successful - he plays a lot bigger than his size

Terrace Marshall Jr is 6'3 200lbs and has the prototypical body and athleticism and quick feet that any team would want at the position - but he had a few drops in 2020 (although tbf i dont foresee that being an issue in the NFL) - but he's not a good route-runner right now and doesn't create a ton of separation - seems to do his best work out of the slot (which is obviously not who you're looking for on the boundary lol)

Tylan Wallace is 5'11 193lbs which obviously isn't the frame that you'd normally expect out of a boundary receiver - he's a good route runner and really successful at the catch-point (great hands, body control, ball-tracking etc... makes some crazy catches) - there's some athleticism question-marks about him but he seems to threaten DBs vertically on his tape which suggests he's not going to be limited by that in the NFL

Cornell Powell is 6'0 200lbs is a really interesting prospect because he hardly played until this year for Clemson (tbf he's been stuck behind a ton of receiving talent) - so there's not a ton of examples of him making contested catches on the boundary but he looks like an interesting outside WR (i personally like him a lot) - he looks good against press, is a really nice route-runner and got good hands and he's physical through his route - just such a limited sample size vs most of the other prospects in the class

Frank Darby is 6'1 200lbs who plays bigger than his size - he's physical, tough, competitive - doesn't have blazing speed but seems to be able to stack well vertically - good hands and he's aggressive at the catch-point - he seems to struggle decelerating and breaking back towards the QB which gives corners the opportunity to close on the ball underneath - but otherwise his route running is pretty nice

There's some other guys but these are probably the top options:

  • Seth Williams is highly regarded by some but I've got a ton of issues with him as a prospect - seems to me to have low effort and some moments that suggest to me he has poor awareness and not a ton of intensity either
  • Ihmir Smith-Marsette is really raw and not the best playing through contact - probably a gadget guy/slot early - really suffered from awful QB play which makes him hard to evaluate
  • Austin Watkins Jr has prototypical size and some nice route running and nice ball skills but doesnt get a ton of separation - he probably fits your mould quite well
  • Dez Fitzpatrick is a nice athlete albeit not super-twitchy with some intelligent route-running - fights through contact through his routes and adjusts well at the catch-point and has good hands - tends to fade in and out of games (might be because of awful QB play) - fun fact though he played with Lamar in 2017 - he was the standout receiver in the senior bowl game
  • Trevon Grimes has the kind of body and playing style you're talking about - ive got a lot of questions about his long-speed but he's got some nice nuance to his route-running and carries speed well through his cuts - could become a nice pro especially in a possession receiver type role (not sure how effective he'll be vertically at the next level)
  • Josh Imatorbhebhe is an awesome athlete who offers size and length and explosion both downfield and the elite ability to elevate above the rim and high-point the ball - super raw prospect - he's about as developmental as a prospect gets - but an absolutely outrageous athlete especially his vertical jumping ability
  • Tamarrion Terry is again a crazy athlete for his size especially his lateral quickness and he has a massive wingspan - but there's a ton of body catches on his tape and drops too - and he seems to shy away from contested situations (not sure how much he relishes contact) - seems to be over-thinking during his routes - another developmental guy
  • Josh Palmer has a great catch radius and great hands but looks like a pretty limited athlete - he's good fighting through contact during his routes but that's because he doesn't seem to be able to separate
  • Sage Surrat uses his body well to create leverage at the catch-point and tracks the ball well - limited athlete - despite his size seems to get beaten up vs press - seems to have the mentality after the catch of someone smaller than him - has some route running but idk that he's good enough at it for it to be a calling card - not sure how he'll win in the NFL
  • Simi Fehoko has a huge frame and maybe has some build-up speed in a straight line - some drops and some incomplete passes down to lack of awareness on the sideline and some body catches too - generally good hands otherwise - better vs zone than vs man - CBs sit on the underneath stuff because they aren't afraid of him vertically

everyone else who could be a big body boundary type that ive watched has ended up with a udfa grade i think - and some of the above guys might be udfa grades when i finally get to more of their tape later in the process

TL;DR... that's probably more detail than you were asking for lol but those 16 names are the ones to look at if you're looking for that type of receiver but I'd personally start with Chase, Bateman, Wallace, Darby, Seth Williams, Trevon Grimes and Sage Surratt (i personally am not a fan of Williams or Surratt but many do like them)

EDIT: to add Nico Collins to the list (can't believe I forgot to add him) - 6'4 222lbs and he can move - showed at the senior bowl some nice releases vs press coverage and the ability to fight through contact - has some decent route-running and stacks well vertically - going to be a beast in the redzone - better on in-breaking routes than out-breaking right now
Had to screen shot this so i can look these guys up lol
 

Simba

Staff Member
Moderator
People overrate hardman, watkins and robinson because pat
Throws them the ball.. those 3 guys are not what they seem.

I don't entirely disagree. Their system and having Kelce and Hill helps, but these are guys that just do what they need to do. We know what Hardman is in particular - a manufactured touches guy with tons of speed. Nothing wrong with that. Watkins honestly isn't that good. Robinson has just turned in a pretty consistent performance. Solid, nothing spectacular, and it's really all they need there.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
People overrate hardman, watkins and robinson because pat
Throws them the ball.. those 3 guys are not what they seem.

watkins is a good receiver - not worth the pick he was taken at when he was taken in 2014 lol but still a good receiver

hardman and robinson are dynamic threats - id say they're probably effective not because pat throws them the ball (obviously that helps) but moreso because tyreek hill, watkins and kelce are drawing extra attention and andy reid is an unbelievable play designer and play-caller

but they were also brought in to perform specific roles and they've been very effective (hardman especially) in those roles
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
People overrate hardman, watkins and robinson because pat
Throws them the ball.. those 3 guys are not what they seem.
pat doesnt make hardman run with the ball on shovel passes and end arounds and screens. hardman is a GIFTED runner with the ball, one of the most dangerous ball carriers in the league flat out
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
to me it doesnt look like a great "big body" class - and even those boundary, good at the catch-point guys aren't all that big this year anyway

Rashod Bateman is 6'1 210lbs and an exceptional route runner with a penchant for making incredible catches who tracks the ball really well (im super high on Bateman)

Ja'Marr Chase is 6'1 208lbs who's about as dominant at the catch-point as ive seen from a college prospect, he's got some route-running deficiencies (and problems getting off press) right now that would need development but he's a very explosive athlete with tons of tools to be very successful - he plays a lot bigger than his size

Terrace Marshall Jr is 6'3 200lbs and has the prototypical body and athleticism and quick feet that any team would want at the position - but he had a few drops in 2020 (although tbf i dont foresee that being an issue in the NFL) - but he's not a good route-runner right now and doesn't create a ton of separation - seems to do his best work out of the slot (which is obviously not who you're looking for on the boundary lol)

Tylan Wallace is 5'11 193lbs which obviously isn't the frame that you'd normally expect out of a boundary receiver - he's a good route runner and really successful at the catch-point (great hands, body control, ball-tracking etc... makes some crazy catches) - there's some athleticism question-marks about him but he seems to threaten DBs vertically on his tape which suggests he's not going to be limited by that in the NFL

Cornell Powell is 6'0 200lbs is a really interesting prospect because he hardly played until this year for Clemson (tbf he's been stuck behind a ton of receiving talent) - so there's not a ton of examples of him making contested catches on the boundary but he looks like an interesting outside WR (i personally like him a lot) - he looks good against press, is a really nice route-runner and got good hands and he's physical through his route - just such a limited sample size vs most of the other prospects in the class

Frank Darby is 6'1 200lbs who plays bigger than his size - he's physical, tough, competitive - doesn't have blazing speed but seems to be able to stack well vertically - good hands and he's aggressive at the catch-point - he seems to struggle decelerating and breaking back towards the QB which gives corners the opportunity to close on the ball underneath - but otherwise his route running is pretty nice

There's some other guys but these are probably the top options:

  • Seth Williams is highly regarded by some but I've got a ton of issues with him as a prospect - seems to me to have low effort and some moments that suggest to me he has poor awareness and not a ton of intensity either
  • Ihmir Smith-Marsette is really raw and not the best playing through contact - probably a gadget guy/slot early - really suffered from awful QB play which makes him hard to evaluate
  • Austin Watkins Jr has prototypical size and some nice route running and nice ball skills but doesnt get a ton of separation - he probably fits your mould quite well
  • Dez Fitzpatrick is a nice athlete albeit not super-twitchy with some intelligent route-running - fights through contact through his routes and adjusts well at the catch-point and has good hands - tends to fade in and out of games (might be because of awful QB play) - fun fact though he played with Lamar in 2017 - he was the standout receiver in the senior bowl game
  • Trevon Grimes has the kind of body and playing style you're talking about - ive got a lot of questions about his long-speed but he's got some nice nuance to his route-running and carries speed well through his cuts - could become a nice pro especially in a possession receiver type role (not sure how effective he'll be vertically at the next level)
  • Josh Imatorbhebhe is an awesome athlete who offers size and length and explosion both downfield and the elite ability to elevate above the rim and high-point the ball - super raw prospect - he's about as developmental as a prospect gets - but an absolutely outrageous athlete especially his vertical jumping ability
  • Tamarrion Terry is again a crazy athlete for his size especially his lateral quickness and he has a massive wingspan - but there's a ton of body catches on his tape and drops too - and he seems to shy away from contested situations (not sure how much he relishes contact) - seems to be over-thinking during his routes - another developmental guy
  • Josh Palmer has a great catch radius and great hands but looks like a pretty limited athlete - he's good fighting through contact during his routes but that's because he doesn't seem to be able to separate
  • Sage Surrat uses his body well to create leverage at the catch-point and tracks the ball well - limited athlete - despite his size seems to get beaten up vs press - seems to have the mentality after the catch of someone smaller than him - has some route running but idk that he's good enough at it for it to be a calling card - not sure how he'll win in the NFL
  • Simi Fehoko has a huge frame and maybe has some build-up speed in a straight line - some drops and some incomplete passes down to lack of awareness on the sideline and some body catches too - generally good hands otherwise - better vs zone than vs man - CBs sit on the underneath stuff because they aren't afraid of him vertically

everyone else who could be a big body boundary type that ive watched has ended up with a udfa grade i think - and some of the above guys might be udfa grades when i finally get to more of their tape later in the process

TL;DR... that's probably more detail than you were asking for lol but those 16 names are the ones to look at if you're looking for that type of receiver but I'd personally start with Chase, Bateman, Wallace, Darby, Seth Williams, Trevon Grimes and Sage Surratt (i personally am not a fan of Williams or Surratt but many do like them)

EDIT: to add Nico Collins to the list (can't believe I forgot to add him) - 6'4 222lbs and he can move - showed at the senior bowl some nice releases vs press coverage and the ability to fight through contact - has some decent route-running and stacks well vertically - going to be a beast in the redzone - better on in-breaking routes than out-breaking right now

Someone I noticed off the list was Tyler Vaughns. Slight down year in 2020 but really impressive 2019 and respectable 2017 and 2018.
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer
pat doesnt make hardman run with the ball on shovel passes and end arounds and screens. hardman is a GIFTED runner with the ball, one of the most dangerous ball carriers in the league flat out
Understandable but he is overrated because he plays for kc is all im saying. I hope we or pringle have a great game today.. hoping on pringle though
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
Understandable but he is overrated because he plays for kc is all im saying. I hope we or pringle have a great game today.. hoping on pringle though
fair enough, id say andy reid is hardmans biggest benefactor, not mahomes.

so yeah, whether its mahomes or reid, if you play offense in KC youre a spoiled fuck, its like being a white lacrosse player in NE.
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
he wasn't on my list because i haven't watched or graded him - ill add him to my list of guys to watch

I'll be really excited to hear what you say about him given you've been pretty good at WR prospects. He seems pretty exciting to me and seems like a 2nd or 3rd round pick meaning we might have a legitimate chance at him.
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
I have to say I'm not a fan so far - he's got great hands but from what i can see not a ton else...

what do you like about him?

He really seems like a boom or bust prospect to me. He's got decent size as well as decent speed. He was a contested catch machine in the Redzone and at the boundary. Has some but not great YAC potential. Doesn't get a ton of separation. All in all, he is pretty raw, but was really sure handed and played big at the catch point. Let me know if you really disagree.
 

JAAM

Hall of Famer
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