2018 Free Agency

[Edgar]

yeah but all drafting is based on projection - if that wasnt the case then darnold, allen and jackson would have no chance at first round grades -

darnold has awkward mechanics and a low beginning of his delivery that are conducive to putting the ball on the ground and a history of bad turnovers

allen has awful accuracy issues and rampant inconsistencies and a seeming inability to read the field at times as well as an incredibly low completion percentage

jackson has bad but fixable mechanics and a history of incompletions at the collegiate level

but as with everything their grades are based on projection and their likelihood/ability to develop - i actually think that jackson is the least problematic to project because none of his issues are inherently unfixable whereas darnold's delivery is likely stuck as it is in some form and allen's reading of the field is at best going to take time to develop but at worst could lead to him being a huge bust

but i dont think jackson really comes up wanting as a passer in his grade (at least when compared to allen) and in terms of my grade his running ability and off-script stuff elevated him a few spots on the board but it didnt dramatically improve his grade as such

Obviously.

I suppose I am taking a more cautious, maybe even pessimistic approach. Even though I'm not altogether convinced he can be fixed..... and make no misunderstanding....You can't hope that if he isn't improved in his throwing then his athleticism will be enough to compensate for the passer we see in college. It won't.
Even though I'm not altogether convinced he can be fixed, I wouldn't want to pass on him at sixteen. I'd rather be known as the guy that busted on him than the guy that passed on him. Are you on board with him at sixteen?

 

[DeVito52]

Obviously.

I suppose I am taking a more cautious, maybe even pessimistic approach. Even though I'm not altogether convinced he can be fixed..... and make no misunderstanding....You can't hope that if he isn't improved in his throwing then his athleticism will be enough to compensate for the passer we see in college. It won't.
Even though I'm not altogether convinced he can be fixed, I wouldn't want to pass on him at sixteen. I'd rather be known as the guy that busted on him than the guy that passed on him. Are you on board with him at sixteen?

I’d definitely rather be known as the team that passed on a good player than be known as a team that picked a horrible bust..

 

[rossihunter2]

Obviously.

I suppose I am taking a more cautious, maybe even pessimistic approach. Even though I'm not altogether convinced he can be fixed..... and make no misunderstanding....You can't hope that if he isn't improved in his throwing then his athleticism will be enough to compensate for the passer we see in college. It won't.
Even though I'm not altogether convinced he can be fixed, I wouldn't want to pass on him at sixteen. I'd rather be known as the guy that busted on him than the guy that passed on him. Are you on board with him at sixteen?

i just dont see what it is about him that you dont think is fixable?

 

[Edgar]

i just dont see what it is about him that you dont think is fixable?

Never said that. I have no idea if he will or not.
everything is fixable....in theory. It just isn't as simple as just working on it. You're talking about relearning what appears his natural throwing motion so as to make it more it more efficient. This takes time if it takes at all. His combine workout throwing one on one was rough and inaccurate....you can see he's just starting to rethink his throws.

His ability to manipulate and step and slide in the pocket....It's difficult for me to find an example of him doing this instead of skedaddling ....

you didn't answer my question about Jackson at 16.

 

[rossihunter2]

Never said that. I have no idea if he will or not.
everything is fixable....in theory. It just isn't as simple as just working on it. You're talking about relearning what appears his natural throwing motion so as to make it more it more efficient. This takes time if it takes at all. His combine workout throwing one on one was rough and inaccurate....you can see he's just starting to rethink his throws.

His ability to manipulate and step and slide in the pocket....It's difficult for me to find an example of him doing this instead of skedaddling ....

you didn't answer my question about Jackson at 16.

i guess i see him needing to completely revamp his delivery and in a way that is easier than tweaking a pre-existing "unfixable" delivery - and i think part of the problem in his delivery is that it doesnt look that natural to start with - or at least it doesnt feel like a natural football throw...

his combine was not good but i think it says a lot that he looked infinitely better at his pro day and every single throw at his pro day was under center which at least tells you a lot about his work ethic with regards to working at pocket passing

i agree with you that his pocket movement is poor given his natural athleticism and he often takes poor angles when leaving the pocket too but he does have the athleticism to get away with a lot of those mistakes in the same way russell wilson could when he entered the league

and as for jackson at 16 im not sure - he's number 22 on my big board which would suggest that id be unhappy with him at 16 in BPA terms but in my mind that's close enough that id believe the ravens could have him as a top 16 player and obviously there is (or should be) a natural inflation with regards to the price of qbs - i guess im not sure whether id be on board with jackson until i see who's there at 16 or what the other options are which seems like a cop out but with most other players i could tell you outright but he's someone im not sure

ill be happy to have him if hes the pick but im not as yet convinced that he's a top 16 prospect (albeit i dont think he's that far off)

 

[Edgar]

i guess i see him needing to completely revamp his delivery and in a way that is easier than tweaking a pre-existing "unfixable" delivery - and i think part of the problem in his delivery is that it doesnt look that natural to start with - or at least it doesnt feel like a natural football throw...

his combine was not good but i think it says a lot that he looked infinitely better at his pro day and every single throw at his pro day was under center which at least tells you a lot about his work ethic with regards to working at pocket passing

i agree with you that his pocket movement is poor given his natural athleticism and he often takes poor angles when leaving the pocket too but he does have the athleticism to get away with a lot of those mistakes in the same way russell wilson could when he entered the league

and as for jackson at 16 im not sure - he's number 22 on my big board which would suggest that id be unhappy with him at 16 in BPA terms but in my mind that's close enough that id believe the ravens could have him as a top 16 player and obviously there is (or should be) a natural inflation with regards to the price of qbs - i guess im not sure whether id be on board with jackson until i see who's there at 16 or what the other options are which seems like a cop out but with most other players i could tell you outright but he's someone im not sure

ill be happy to have him if hes the pick but im not as yet convinced that he's a top 16 prospect (albeit i dont think he's that far off)

Fair enough. I don't get the Wilson comp that a lot of people are making( not saying you are drawing a direct comparison). Wilson was a much more natural and accurate thrower of the football.
He was also running a pro style offense and took a majority of snaps under center.

I struggle knowing who Jackson reminds me of exactly.

 

[Edgar]

I’d definitely rather be known as the team that passed on a good player than be known as a team that picked a horrible bust..

I suppose in the abstract that sounds right. It presupposes that the player you selected instead of the horrible bust isn't himself, a horrible bust. As long as those both happen I'm sure you're right.

But if the pass is on a quarterback who isn't just good but instead is transformative and you pass him for a very good guard or WR or God forbid, a horrible bust: You may be accused of drafting scared or of not being very good at your job or be made to listen to, "what might have been...."

I'm sure The Steelers felt confident in drafting Gabriel Rivera.

 

[rossihunter2]

Fair enough. I don't get the Wilson comp that a lot of people are making( not saying you are drawing a direct comparison). Wilson was a much more natural and accurate thrower of the football.
He was also running a pro style offense and took a majority of snaps under center.

I struggle knowing who Jackson reminds me of exactly.

Oh absolutely - the Wilson “comp” is only with regards to that one facet of his play not as an actual direct comp - as you say - they are very different prospects

 

[JoeyFlex5]

i mean i see some of this and also i dont see some of this

he has eminently fixable mechanical issues but his throwing motion's problem is not because he throws with his upper body but its because he leans and puts so much force through his front leg which leaves him prone to leaning forward and having a shorter base which naturally creates a whippier arm motion which naturally makes inaccuracy harder - he has unbelievable power in that left plant leg that sometimes you can see him literally leave the ground when he delivers the football - that's why im less worried about him potentially taking hits as much as i was because of the sheer strength in his lower body

and if im honest i dont see him being more inaccurate down the field at all i see a fairly consistent inaccuracy in his throws at all levels on all kinds of throws which is troubling but i genuinely think that fixing his mechanics will naturally increase his accuracy

an early critique i had of jackson is that he scrambles to run not to pass but in finishing up with the tape ill admit when im wrong and i was flatout wrong - he consistently keeps his eyes downfield and off script manipulates the defence to open up throwing lanes in improvisational situations

ill also point out that his accuracy issues are not as bad as documented and suggested by his completion percentage - i dont think ive studied a qb in this class who's suffered more/worse drops and tipped balls by receivers than jackson - his corps was legitimately awful at catching the ball - and maybe some of that is on jackson showing a lack of touch (something that he seemed to want to emphasise at his pro day and showed improvement with it already as well as taking snaps under center which improved even in the few weeks between the combine and his proday)

i think his rollouts and movement around and even out of the pocket is inefficient but he's got the athletic ability and nouse to make defenders miss in the hole and buy himself some time - if his pocket awareness develops he'll be lethal in this aspect

jackson's ideal scenario i think is to go somewhere with a veteran starter so that the pressure is off him early on - even if he doesnt sit out his whole first year i think there's no doubt in my mind that he would benefit from not starting in week 1 - i think we'll see a lot of him in the preseason a la patrick mahomes and then depending on his team we should see him week 17 again like the chiefs and mahomes - for me that feels like the ideal scenario with regards to jackson getting drafted

So then... he's a good fit here. Decent run game, 2 good hands catchers, coaching staff that does well in the run playbook and could probably make a fucking machine out of him...

I'm on board, and i have a sneaking suspicion that its on the table a lot more than most of us expect

 

[rossihunter2]

So then... he's a good fit here. Decent run game, 2 good hands catchers, coaching staff that does well in the run playbook and could probably make a fucking machine out of him...

I'm on board, and i have a sneaking suspicion that its on the table a lot more than most of us expect

Oh I agree - this team would be a good fit for him

 

[RavensMania]

Is today or tomorrow the last day Snead can sign his offer sheet, if offered?

 

[rossihunter2]

Is today or tomorrow the last day Snead can sign his offer sheet?

im not sure - the deadline is april 20th but im not sure if that's the deadline for the offer sheet to be signed or for a team to either match or not match the offer sheet

i always assumed it would be that an offer sheet would have to be signed today so as to allow the full 5 days before the RFA deadline but its certainly conceivable that the deadline is for the offer sheet to be signed but that does leave the team matching the offer sheet only a marginal amount of time to deal with the loss of a player/pick pre-draft...

 

[Simba]

Is today or tomorrow the last day Snead can sign his offer sheet, if offered?

You can make an offer up until the 20th, since the 5 days would be the day before the draft for a team to match.

 

[RL52TheGreatest]

If we do end up drafting Jackson, how much longer do we keep Flacco? I don't know if I would envision a Mahomes-like scenario, but if we fail to make the playoffs yet again then I could see us making the switch (correct me if I'm wrong, but we would save a lot of cap space by cutting Flacco after this season).

 

[rossihunter2]

If we do end up drafting Jackson, how much longer do we keep Flacco? I don't know if I would envision a Mahomes-like scenario, but if we fail to make the playoffs yet again then I could see us making the switch (correct me if I'm wrong, but we would save a lot of cap space by cutting Flacco after this season).

It would happen either next offseason or the offseason after - if we wait til 2019 we’d save 20m against the cap that year alone - obviously though if flacco shits the bed then we can get rid of him after 2018 and either save 10m or designate him post-June-1st and save a bit more but carry more dead money into 2019

Either way the 2 key factors in this decision would be 1) whether we draft Jackson (or another round 1 qb) and 2) how good/bad flaccos 2018 play is

 

[JAAM]

So then... he's a good fit here. Decent run game, 2 good hands catchers, coaching staff that does well in the run playbook and could probably make a fucking machine out of him...

I'm on board, and i have a sneaking suspicion that its on the table a lot more than most of us expect

You really think Marty could unleash his potential? I just can't see it.. I'm not sure how I'd feel drafting a QB high with the system we have in place right now.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

You really think Marty could unleash his potential? I just can't see it.. I'm not sure how I'd feel drafting a QB high with the system we have in place right now.

1. Marty can't, roman can
2. You don't draft a qb to fit a failed system from a HC who may be on his way out, you build a system for him.

 

[JAAM]

1. Marty can't, roman can
2. You don't draft a qb to fit a failed system from a HC who may be on his way out, you build a system for him.

IF is the keyword there. We have no clue if Harbaugh stays or not.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

IF is the keyword there. We have no clue if Harbaugh stays or not.

Well I can promise you this...

If we take Jackson at 16 and Marty's scheme still looks like a disaster and harbaugh stands by him... 2 of the 3 people mentioned will be gone when the season ends, and Jackson wouldn't be one of them.

Incredibly hypothetical scenario here but you don't draft a first round qb to be your next guy and force him into a system where he doesnt fit. Marty's playbook should have absolutely no impact on whether we would or wouldn't draft Jackson

 

[rossihunter2]

Well I can promise you this...

If we take Jackson at 16 and Marty's scheme still looks like a disaster and harbaugh stands by him... 2 of the 3 people mentioned will be gone when the season ends, and Jackson wouldn't be one of them.

Incredibly hypothetical scenario here but you don't draft a first round qb to be your next guy and force him into a system where he doesnt fit. Marty's playbook should have absolutely no impact on whether we would or wouldn't draft Jackson

and it wont - no matter what anyone thinks of our coaching staff, our front office has always been sensible, forward thinking and well organised and consistently has kept this team competitive in all circumstances (now obviously they could improve because we've been less competitive the last few years but we've still been in the mix despite numerous injuries and some significant players under performing)

there's no way that scheme holds this front office to ransom - and tbh im not sure that drafting jackson necessarily takes harbs out of the equation if we under perform - if anything it might buy him some time if come next offseason we commit to creating a system around him and adding tools

if im harbs and it looks like we might go jackson or that jackson might be the best player there i absolutely attach myself to that pick and turn jackson into my guy so that i can tie my future at the organisation to this guy and therefore even if we underperform you create the dynamic that means you are part of the change the organisation wants to go through

i think if the offence/team underperforms marty's gone but if jackson is the pick im not sure that harbs is gone - i have a sneaking suspicion that the jackson pick could buy harbs extra time as long as he's 100% supportive of the pick in the war room and behind the scenes