Next Up: vs Bye Week

[gtalk12]

A lot of unknowns at this point for me, but...
1. AV likely won't be back (unless he takes a paycut) UNLESS we get info in like March that Stanley isn't going to recover and his career is over. That seems unlikely.
2. Bozeman isn't under contract for 2022 currently, so they'll need to make a decision about whether to retain him or to seek an upgrade elsewhere.
3. We do have JuWuan James, who was a pretty good RT, on the roster for 2022, as he recovers from injury this year.

So I think in an ideal world, many of your Oline "upgrades" are on the roster already. I think if they decide to keep Bozeman, they'll be happy with a line of Stanley/Powers or Phillips/Bozeman/Zeitler/James. They'll be able to bring Mekari back as a swing tackle as an RFA most likely, and I think they like the depth on the interior.

The unknowns, for me, are a) Stanley's health and b) whether they think they can do better than Bozeman.

I do not expect them to bring in like 2-3 new starters. I think it'll be maybe an upgrade starter somewhere and then some depth additions.

3. Is key for me going into next season

 

[Simba]

A lot of unknowns at this point for me, but...
1. AV likely won't be back (unless he takes a paycut) UNLESS we get info in like March that Stanley isn't going to recover and his career is over. That seems unlikely.
2. Bozeman isn't under contract for 2022 currently, so they'll need to make a decision about whether to retain him or to seek an upgrade elsewhere.
3. We do have JuWuan James, who was a pretty good RT, on the roster for 2022, as he recovers from injury this year.

So I think in an ideal world, many of your Oline "upgrades" are on the roster already. I think if they decide to keep Bozeman, they'll be happy with a line of Stanley/Powers or Phillips/Bozeman/Zeitler/James. They'll be able to bring Mekari back as a swing tackle as an RFA most likely, and I think they like the depth on the interior.

The unknowns, for me, are a) Stanley's health and b) whether they think they can do better than Bozeman.

I do not expect them to bring in like 2-3 new starters. I think it'll be maybe an upgrade starter somewhere and then some depth additions.

I think you kind of alluded to this in your last point, but just to emphasize… depth is critical at T. They didn’t do near enough to address the risks (Stanley coming off of injury and AV having never played RT) and we’re paying the price now. I know you can’t fill every single hole but that was a colossal failure and I’d be surprised if we don’t try to add developmental and viable options at T beyond Stanley and James.

 

[rmcjacket23]

3. Is key for me going into next season

Well, the problem is... you'll be putting some eggs in the basket of a player who basically wouldn't have played a game in almost three years.
Barring him miraculously getting back this year, he will have missed all of 2020 and 2021, and will have played a grand total of 3 football games since 2018.

So at the very least, I think they'll expect him to compete with Mekari for that job, and possibly another draft pick. I would expect us to add a Tackle in the draft, likely in the mid rounds.

So for me, I'm not really super concerned about RT, which I know is probably the weakest position on our line at the moment. You've got two bodies on the roster already who will compete for that spot, and can add another in the draft.

For me, its all about Stanley and Bozeman. If Stanley never returns, adding a LT in the offseason becomes priority #1 above all else. They can bring Villaneuva back potentially, but there's no way they feel good about that. If they opt not to keep Bozeman, they'll obviously need a Center also, though I think they'd feel better about that as like a potential day 2 option or possibly sign a veteran in FA that would be cheaper than Bozeman.

 

[OURavensFan]

So far all quiet from the FO. If we make no moves it’s going to be sad

 

[rmcjacket23]

I think you kind of alluded to this in your last point, but just to emphasize… depth is critical at T. They didn’t do near enough to address the risks (Stanley coming off of injury and AV having never played RT) and we’re paying the price now. I know you can’t fill every single hole but that was a colossal failure and I’d be surprised if we don’t try to add developmental and viable options at T beyond Stanley and James.

So yes, BUT, I'll give them credit for one thing... Mekari exceeded my expectations dramatically, and the Ravens knew that. He's been pretty solid. Not an All-Pro, but he did fine there.
So in some ways, they had three "competent" tackles in the offseason. I know Villaneuva gets shit on a lot (and sometimes rightfully so), but like I've been telling people, he's not so bad that like we can't win games when he's out there. He's inconsistent, but that's expected, since he's basically a fringe starting LT in this league at this point.
If you told me they had three competent Tackles on the roster, I'd have said they'd done enough. It's really not reasonable to expect more than that in this league at this point.

Now, of course, the problems are a) Stanley basically never came back and b) Mekari is now likely to miss multiple games. So if you have three competent tackles, and two of them miss significant time, that's certainly a problem. But I can't fault them for "not doing enough". Basically the "not doing enough" concept is almost purely based on that fact that Villanueva hasn't been great.

What happens with Stanley in the next 5-6 months will set a lot of the priorities for our offseason. It's going to be really hard to know whether he can come back by like March/April, and you may not even know by draft time, which means the Ravens will have to make educated guesses about whether they need to be in the market for a starting LT.

They're in a tough spot. Stanley is a huge ?, and so is James. If they both come back strong, the FO looks like geniuses. If they don't, you need 2-3 more tackles, including a starter. And they're going to need to make that call with insufficient info to make that call. Guess wrong, and you're either stuck with bad players at those spots, or you're adding bodies that are useless because the returning players are better.

 

[rmcjacket23]

So far all quiet from the FO. If we make no moves it’s going to be sad

Not really any moves we can make. Practically no cap space, virtually no easy way to create cap space, and there's no difference making players I see available that we can afford.

 

[Simba]

So yes, BUT, I'll give them credit for one thing... Mekari exceeded my expectations dramatically, and the Ravens knew that. He's been pretty solid. Not an All-Pro, but he did fine there.
So in some ways, they had three "competent" tackles in the offseason. I know Villaneuva gets shit on a lot (and sometimes rightfully so), but like I've been telling people, he's not so bad that like we can't win games when he's out there. He's inconsistent, but that's expected, since he's basically a fringe starting LT in this league at this point.
If you told me they had three competent Tackles on the roster, I'd have said they'd done enough. It's really not reasonable to expect more than that in this league at this point.

Now, of course, the problems are a) Stanley basically never came back and b) Mekari is now likely to miss multiple games. So if you have three competent tackles, and two of them miss significant time, that's certainly a problem. But I can't fault them for "not doing enough". Basically the "not doing enough" concept is almost purely based on that fact that Villanueva hasn't been great.

What happens with Stanley in the next 5-6 months will set a lot of the priorities for our offseason. It's going to be really hard to know whether he can come back by like March/April, and you may not even know by draft time, which means the Ravens will have to make educated guesses about whether they need to be in the market for a starting LT.

They're in a tough spot. Stanley is a huge ?, and so is James. If they both come back strong, the FO looks like geniuses. If they don't, you need 2-3 more tackles, including a starter. And they're going to need to make that call with insufficient info to make that call. Guess wrong, and you're either stuck with bad players at those spots, or you're adding bodies that are useless because the returning players are better.

Mekari wasn’t even originally supposed to be playing T though. So while it’s worked out, I don’t think that was necessarily in the plans. They wanted Andre Smith there first but with him skipping out on minicamps, Mekari was out there as a body and then turned into an option over time.

 

[OURavensFan]

So yes, BUT, I'll give them credit for one thing... Mekari exceeded my expectations dramatically, and the Ravens knew that. He's been pretty solid. Not an All-Pro, but he did fine there.
So in some ways, they had three "competent" tackles in the offseason. I know Villaneuva gets shit on a lot (and sometimes rightfully so), but like I've been telling people, he's not so bad that like we can't win games when he's out there. He's inconsistent, but that's expected, since he's basically a fringe starting LT in this league at this point.
If you told me they had three competent Tackles on the roster, I'd have said they'd done enough. It's really not reasonable to expect more than that in this league at this point.

Now, of course, the problems are a) Stanley basically never came back and b) Mekari is now likely to miss multiple games. So if you have three competent tackles, and two of them miss significant time, that's certainly a problem. But I can't fault them for "not doing enough". Basically the "not doing enough" concept is almost purely based on that fact that Villanueva hasn't been great.

What happens with Stanley in the next 5-6 months will set a lot of the priorities for our offseason. It's going to be really hard to know whether he can come back by like March/April, and you may not even know by draft time, which means the Ravens will have to make educated guesses about whether they need to be in the market for a starting LT.

They're in a tough spot. Stanley is a huge ?, and so is James. If they both come back strong, the FO looks like geniuses. If they don't, you need 2-3 more tackles, including a starter. And they're going to need to make that call with insufficient info to make that call. Guess wrong, and you're either stuck with bad players at those spots, or you're adding bodies that are useless because the returning players are better.

Depth is not useless

 

[JO_75]

Good news is Derek Wolfe was back at practice today. Hopefully things change once we get healthy after the BYE. Having Sammy, Bateman and Andrews out there at the same time should open things up offensively. Nick Boyle being back should improve the run game and help with our OL injuries a bit.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Depth is not useless

So you're OK with us drafting middle round picks next year who, ideally, never play?
Like if you are that's fine. I'm not necessarily opposed to it either. I just think fans tend to change their tunes on this pretty quickly once they get some film in front of them.

Like fans want new starters on the Oline, depth on the Oline, like 5 new defensive lineman/linebackers, and significantly more depth in the Secondary.

How does one achieve all of that in one offseason? Answer... they don't. So if the Ravens add a RT in the fourth round, and James plays all 17 games and plays well, but our secondary falls apart because we failed to add depth, are fans going to concede that perhaps prioritizing certain positions over another wasn't a great idea from the fan's perspective?

I'll go on record with it right now... Oline isn't a high level of concern for me. We're a top 5 offense with no RBs and below average Oline. If we got from being a top 5 offense to the best offense, does anybody actually think like we are so much better off? I sure as shit don't.

If we add simply one offensive tackle in the draft next year (and doesn't have to be a high pick), and do nothing else but add defensive players at every level with the rest of our draft picks and money, I'd be very happy at the moment. Maybe that changes in 3 months, but right now, the offense is doing quite well with just a lot of injuries. The defense has basically one significant injury in my eyes, and they've sucked for a good chunk of the season. One of the worst defenses in franchise history as far as I can tell.

My focus begins and ends there.

 

[rossihunter2]

I think you kind of alluded to this in your last point, but just to emphasize… depth is critical at T. They didn’t do near enough to address the risks (Stanley coming off of injury and AV having never played RT) and we’re paying the price now. I know you can’t fill every single hole but that was a colossal failure and I’d be surprised if we don’t try to add developmental and viable options at T beyond Stanley and James.

I think we need a high pick not just a depth pick at tackle this offseason - best case they’re great depth in 2022 and the future at tackle - worst case we’ve got a viable talent if stanley can’t go

 

[Simba]

I think we need a high pick not just a depth pick at tackle this offseason - best case they’re great depth in 2022 and the future at tackle - worst case we’ve got a viable talent if stanley can’t go

I agree with this as well. Maybe depth wasn’t the right word, but you need to place much more emphasis on options there. Stanley and James could be great but both are coming off of major injuries yet again and Mekari is likely your only internal option outside of them and that’s still concerning even with how well he’s played. Just have to be better there. Can’t count on either guy at this point.

 

[rossihunter2]

Mekari wasn’t even originally supposed to be playing T though. So while it’s worked out, I don’t think that was necessarily in the plans. They wanted Andre Smith there first but with him skipping out on minicamps, Mekari was out there as a body and then turned into an option over time.

i never got that impression about smith at all

and we'd always seen that deep down there was at least some comfort level with mekari at tackle because of how he played in that emergency situation in 2020 when he came off the bench and was excellent

 

[rossihunter2]

So you're OK with us drafting middle round picks next year who, ideally, never play?
Like if you are that's fine. I'm not necessarily opposed to it either. I just think fans tend to change their tunes on this pretty quickly once they get some film in front of them.

Like fans want new starters on the Oline, depth on the Oline, like 5 new defensive lineman/linebackers, and significantly more depth in the Secondary.

How does one achieve all of that in one offseason? Answer... they don't. So if the Ravens add a RT in the fourth round, and James plays all 17 games and plays well, but our secondary falls apart because we failed to add depth, are fans going to concede that perhaps prioritizing certain positions over another wasn't a great idea from the fan's perspective?

I'll go on record with it right now... Oline isn't a high level of concern for me. We're a top 5 offense with no RBs and below average Oline. If we got from being a top 5 offense to the best offense, does anybody actually think like we are so much better off? I sure as shit don't.

If we add simply one offensive tackle in the draft next year (and doesn't have to be a high pick), and do nothing else but add defensive players at every level with the rest of our draft picks and money, I'd be very happy at the moment. Maybe that changes in 3 months, but right now, the offense is doing quite well with just a lot of injuries. The defense has basically one significant injury in my eyes, and they've sucked for a good chunk of the season. One of the worst defenses in franchise history as far as I can tell.

My focus begins and ends there.

but that's not really how this works - no one complains that a 4th round pick isnt playing in year 1 ever... not unless there's a massive lack of talent and depth ahead of them

if we draft a tackle, even high, and they dont play in 2022 because james and stanley are both back and fine then i dont think you'll see many complaints (certainly not on this board) because james is only here through 2022 and you potentially have your future security at the bookends in place

ideally you want your picks to play but if they have to wait a year that's not the end of the world

 

[rossihunter2]

I agree with this as well. Maybe depth wasn’t the right word, but you need to place much more emphasis on options there. Stanley and James could be great but both are coming off of major injuries yet again and Mekari is likely your only internal option outside of them and that’s still concerning even with how well he’s played. Just have to be better there. Can’t count on either guy at this point.

we currently have 4 potential options at tackle under contract next year (5 if you include Phillips but i dont) but there are question marks about all 4 - with Stanley and James it's about health, with Villanueva it's about cap number and play level, with Mekari it's lack of tape and high-end traits

and even if we somehow kept all 4 and they were all healthy... only 1 of them is under contract beyond 2022

high-level draft investment in that position has to be forthcoming this offseason

 

[Simba]

i never got that impression about smith at all

and we'd always seen that deep down there was at least some comfort level with mekari at tackle because of how he played in that emergency situation in 2020 when he came off the bench and was excellent

What I meant by Smith isn’t that they thought that he was the backup T. Rather, he was supposed to get reps there in camp. Mekari was in the G battle but was moved to T because they needed bodies there for minicamps. I think they knew he was always an emergency option but I don’t think they counted him into the T equation until they absolutely needed to.

 

[rmcjacket23]

but that's not really how this works - no one complains that a 4th round pick isnt playing in year 1 ever... not unless there's a massive lack of talent and depth ahead of them

if we draft a tackle, even high, and they dont play in 2022 because james and stanley are both back and fine then i dont think you'll see many complaints (certainly not on this board) because james is only here through 2022 and you potentially have your future security at the bookends in place

ideally you want your picks to play but if they have to wait a year that's not the end of the world

1. If James plays well, he'd probably be a candidate for a possible extension. That's something you can't know at the moment.
2. I don't see a lot of people on here giving heaps of praise to Ben Cleveland or Tylan Wallace. Why aren't they? Are we not supposed to be happy with depth, which is what those guys are?

Rhetorical question of course, because I already know the answer. Depth doesn't get praise, and nor do we praise mid-round picks who never play because they're not good enough to beat out average players ahead of them AND the sheer volume of injuries they need to become starters is sometimes insurmountable.

I don't see any paths to Tylan Wallace getting time as a receiver in the next 2-3 years. He's buried behind at least four receivers I see that basically have strong holdings on roster spots for the forseeable future. Ben Cleveland looks to be the fourth Guard at the moment, seemingly can't play other positions, and similarly, appears to need at least 2-3 injuries at his position alone just to crack the starting lineup short-term.

And make no mistake... I'm the guy advocating FOR Tackle depth. I'm 100% OK with using a day 3 draft pick on a guy who doesn't play a single snap next year, because two Tackles that are better than him never got hurt. But I'm in the minority of people that think that way. The majority of people, of which many are on this very board, will spend a good chunk of the offseason saying "gee, imagine if we didn't draft Cleveland and instead drafting X player or Y player or Z player".

I'm not even really talking about year 1. I'm talking about years 2, 3, 4, etc.

 

[rmcjacket23]

we currently have 4 potential options at tackle under contract next year (5 if you include Phillips but i dont) but there are question marks about all 4 - with Stanley and James it's about health, with Villanueva it's about cap number and play level, with Mekari it's lack of tape and high-end traits

and even if we somehow kept all 4 and they were all healthy... only 1 of them is under contract beyond 2022

high-level draft investment in that position has to be forthcoming this offseason

Possibly. But then again... why is that position you described any better or worse than the position we were in just six months ago, when we did NOT make a high draft investment in a Tackle a priority?

Six months ago, we had a LT coming back off a major injury, in which case nobody knew when he would be back, we traded away an All-Pro level RT, we signed an aging LT to play a position he's essentially never played before, and the incumbent RT from the prior year was pretty terrible (Tyre).

One could argue our situation at Tackle in 2022 looks considerably better than 2021 at the moment. Not saying they won't make that investment, but I think the investment is more likely to be like a 3rd-4th round draft pick, which is in the mode of guys like Phillips, Cleveland, Powers, etc. from prior years. I.e... no guarantees. Maybe they'll be OBJ level, or maybe they'll be Phillips level.

 

[ravenslord]

We need an OT and RB bad. I hope Decosta makes this happen.
Murray and ? , Replacement for Mekari for awhile. Aren't high ankle sprains 5-6 week injuries? I didn't notice any passes to Freeman in the Bengals game who looked good in the Colts game receiving.

 

[rossihunter2]

1. If James plays well, he'd probably be a candidate for a possible extension. That's something you can't know at the moment.
2. I don't see a lot of people on here giving heaps of praise to Ben Cleveland or Tylan Wallace. Why aren't they? Are we not supposed to be happy with depth, which is what those guys are?

Rhetorical question of course, because I already know the answer. Depth doesn't get praise, and nor do we praise mid-round picks who never play because they're not good enough to beat out average players ahead of them AND the sheer volume of injuries they need to become starters is sometimes insurmountable.

I don't see any paths to Tylan Wallace getting time as a receiver in the next 2-3 years. He's buried behind at least four receivers I see that basically have strong holdings on roster spots for the forseeable future. Ben Cleveland looks to be the fourth Guard at the moment, seemingly can't play other positions, and similarly, appears to need at least 2-3 injuries at his position alone just to crack the starting lineup short-term.

And make no mistake... I'm the guy advocating FOR Tackle depth. I'm 100% OK with using a day 3 draft pick on a guy who doesn't play a single snap next year, because two Tackles that are better than him never got hurt. But I'm in the minority of people that think that way. The majority of people, of which many are on this very board, will spend a good chunk of the offseason saying "gee, imagine if we didn't draft Cleveland and instead drafting X player or Y player or Z player".

I'm not even really talking about year 1. I'm talking about years 2, 3, 4, etc.

it's not about heaping praise on guys like cleveland and wallace - but you literally dont see anyone complaining about them being wasted picks either...