Next Up: vs Bye Week

[Simba]

Real talk though, it’s kind of sad we’ve reached the point where the prospect of adding Cedric Ogbuehi is exciting

 

[rossihunter2]

I mean... what is either's path to playing time in 2022? Cleveland maybe at least competes with guys like Powers or Phillips. Tyre has like almost no shot in my eyes. He'll easily be behind Bateman, Hollywood and Duvernay, and Proche has looked pretty good in the preseason and earned a solid roster spot, and yet he barely gets any offensive action on Sunday's. And that's before we decide whether we keep Watkins for another year and/or add a veteran WR, which we almost certainly might.
His biggest impact, if he makes one, is likely to be the Chris Moore route, which is as a really good ST gunner. And while I like ST players as much as the next guy, I'm not sure I like the idea of using day 2 or early day 3 picks on guys who max out at that level. You give me somebody like Duvernay who returns kicks AND gets a few potential quality touches a game, then I'm for it. But I don't see that as a possibility in the next 2-3 years.

Maybe neither earn playing time but no ones complaining about those picks... especially Wallace who’s a day 3 guy

 

[rmcjacket23]

Maybe neither earn playing time but no ones complaining about those picks... especially Wallace who’s a day 3 guy

It's coming. We've found some pretty good players as day 3 guys, especially as 4th rounders. I might not expect much out of them in year 1, but again, the paths to playing time don't really exist based on what I see.

Odafe and Bateman are likely to prop this draft class up, but right now, you've got two 5th round picks who are off the roster, another 5th rounder who's a gameday inactive, a third rounder who has no path to playing time without many injuries, and a fourth rounder with virtually no path to playing time in the next several years either. I think our standard for even 4th or 5th round draft picks should be something better than "never play for a couple of years". And keep in mind... some of these guys are playing on units that haven't played well or have been ravaged by injury.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

Tackle is almost definitely going to have to be addressed in the draft... Villanueva's pay isn't bad enough that I see him as a cap casualty. Our problems are health related, but the most concerning health issue is a guy we've paid a huge amount of cap to. To me, that necessitates an early draft commitment at that position to have some kind of alternate plan in case Stanley goes south.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Tackle is almost definitely going to have to be addressed in the draft... Villanueva's pay isn't bad enough that I see him as a cap casualty. Our problems are health related, but the most concerning health issue is a guy we've paid a huge amount of cap to. To me, that necessitates an early draft commitment at that position to have some kind of alternate plan in case Stanley goes south.

It's a possibility, though it comes with a TON of drawbacks though...
1. When you say "early commitment", that basically means first round pick. Because if you're talking late 2nd round or into the 3rd round, the likelihood of you finding a quality LT is very, very, very small. If you look around the league, most of your quality LT's are first round picks, and that holds up historically to the Ravens also, as we've probably had two "studs" at LT in our existence, and they were both top 10 draft picks.
So that basically means you pigeon-hole yourself into being forced to take a Tackle in the first round. Not exactly what the Ravens do when it comes to drafts, as they're not just going to pick a position instead of a player.
2. In an ideal world, that player will essentially never start for you, or at least, not at LT. I don't mind using a day 2 or day 3 draft pick on depth or insurance, but a first round pick on a team that's competing for a Lombardi I would expect to slot in right away and play well.
Maybe this guy plays RT, but I'd also point out that a lot of rookie Tackles struggle, meaning even a first rounder may not be a massive upgrade over what you see out there weekly now for 2022.

In my opinion, IF the Ravens suspect that Stanley actually can't come back, they'll do a similar Villanueva move in FA, meaning they'll wait for cuts and sign an older veteran at a discount. I think they'll grab a Tackle in the draft, but it likely won't be on day 1, and may not even be on day 2. If the Ravens are that concerned about Stanley, there's no way they sit idly by in FA and pigeon-hole themselves in the draft to find a starting LT in the 20s or 30s, wherever they draft. You can do that when you're the 2016 Ravens and picking at #6, and there's two prospects you like a lot. They won't have that luxury this year.

 

[rossihunter2]

It's coming. We've found some pretty good players as day 3 guys, especially as 4th rounders. I might not expect much out of them in year 1, but again, the paths to playing time don't really exist based on what I see.

Odafe and Bateman are likely to prop this draft class up, but right now, you've got two 5th round picks who are off the roster, another 5th rounder who's a gameday inactive, a third rounder who has no path to playing time without many injuries, and a fourth rounder with virtually no path to playing time in the next several years either. I think our standard for even 4th or 5th round draft picks should be something better than "never play for a couple of years". And keep in mind... some of these guys are playing on units that haven't played well or have been ravaged by injury.

I can understand criticism of the mason pick because there’s it’s low value position at a position where you can only play one guy and also we had a pro bowl guy there...

But I also don’t think I agree with your assessment of the prospects of the draft class at all either:

both 1st rounders are already making impacts, so is Stephens

Cleveland has been frustrated by injuries but was rotating in for significant snaps at LG from week 2 onwards - and that spot is by no means secure for next year so the idea that there’s no pathway to a role on this team is obviously rubbish - he’s got a decent chance to win that job given how unsatisfied with powers the coaching staff has been for basically 2 and a half years now

Wallace doesn’t have much of an opportunity to grab snaps right now and maybe never but he was the kind of value pick that you 100% take - and he’s already the gunner on special teams which is not insignificant for a day 3 pick

daelin Hayes is injured and was also struggling with an injury before he went on i/r too which is partly why he was inactive... but he would have been active and playing if not for that injury... he’s also at a position where we have strength right now but also 2 veterans on 1 year deals... there’s lots of long-term snaps to be won in 2022 and beyond

wade was clearly a miss but he was a decent shot on upside

mason was the only really obviously instantly questionable pick because he made zero sense...

but no harm no foul because the guy most people were clamouring for when we picked wade and mason, joined the team as a udfa and made the 53 anyway...

but still not seeing which of Cleveland or Wallace (or even Hayes), fans are going to be criticising the front office for picking... only Wallace seems feasible but he’s also popular and plays a sexy position so unlikely that pick gets criticised like that either...

 

[rmcjacket23]

I can understand criticism of the mason pick because there’s it’s low value position at a position where you can only play one guy and also we had a pro bowl guy there...

But I also don’t think I agree with your assessment of the prospects of the draft class at all either:

both 1st rounders are already making impacts, so is Stephens

Cleveland has been frustrated by injuries but was rotating in for significant snaps at LG from week 2 onwards - and that spot is by no means secure for next year so the idea that there’s no pathway to a role on this team is obviously rubbish - he’s got a decent chance to win that job given how unsatisfied with powers the coaching staff has been for basically 2 and a half years now

Wallace doesn’t have much of an opportunity to grab snaps right now and maybe never but he was the kind of value pick that you 100% take - and he’s already the gunner on special teams which is not insignificant for a day 3 pick

daelin Hayes is injured and was also struggling with an injury before he went on i/r too which is partly why he was inactive... but he would have been active and playing if not for that injury... he’s also at a position where we have strength right now but also 2 veterans on 1 year deals... there’s lots of long-term snaps to be won in 2022 and beyond

wade was clearly a miss but he was a decent shot on upside

mason was the only really obviously instantly questionable pick because he made zero sense...

but no harm no foul because the guy most people were clamouring for when we picked wade and mason, joined the team as a udfa and made the 53 anyway...

but still not seeing which of Cleveland or Wallace (or even Hayes), fans are going to be criticising the front office for picking... only Wallace seems feasible but he’s also popular and plays a sexy position so unlikely that pick gets criticised like that either...

Well with Cleveland, if all players are healthy, he's seemingly your 4th Guard. So in order for him to become a "starter", he'll need at least two injuries to players ahead of him, which is what he got earlier this year (briefly). He would be behind Powers and Phillips at Guard if all were healthy. Maybe that changes next year, but maybe he goes the route of Bredeson, and it doesn't. If either Powers or Phillips were to be FAs next year or something like that, then yes, I see the merit. But given that Powers has another year and Phillips has two more years (assuming neither gets an extension), he's going to have to outplay those guys in order to get that spot. That's an open question in my eyes.

As for Wallace, we can talk about the "value" of said player all day long, but I just didn't like taking a WR in that spot with all of the investments you've made in the position in the last three years. I feel we could have found "value" from a linebacker or Tackle or edge rusher or somebody else in that spot.

I left Stephens off my list because I think he's doing what I would expect somebody in his shoes to do. He's not a starter yet, which is fine, he may or may not be next year, and he actually won the "backup" Safety job, meaning when there's an injury, he's on the field. Both Wallace and Cleveland are multiple injuries away from being a backup basically, so it's not like if Bateman or Phillips gets hurt that they're now starters. That's the worrisome part for me. They're several deviations from being role players on offense/defense. And in my opinion, that path to being a role player is likely to decrease instead of increase in future years.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

It's a possibility, though it comes with a TON of drawbacks though...
1. When you say "early commitment", that basically means first round pick. Because if you're talking late 2nd round or into the 3rd round, the likelihood of you finding a quality LT is very, very, very small. If you look around the league, most of your quality LT's are first round picks, and that holds up historically to the Ravens also, as we've probably had two "studs" at LT in our existence, and they were both top 10 draft picks.
So that basically means you pigeon-hole yourself into being forced to take a Tackle in the first round. Not exactly what the Ravens do when it comes to drafts, as they're not just going to pick a position instead of a player.
2. In an ideal world, that player will essentially never start for you, or at least, not at LT. I don't mind using a day 2 or day 3 draft pick on depth or insurance, but a first round pick on a team that's competing for a Lombardi I would expect to slot in right away and play well.
Maybe this guy plays RT, but I'd also point out that a lot of rookie Tackles struggle, meaning even a first rounder may not be a massive upgrade over what you see out there weekly now for 2022.

In my opinion, IF the Ravens suspect that Stanley actually can't come back, they'll do a similar Villanueva move in FA, meaning they'll wait for cuts and sign an older veteran at a discount. I think they'll grab a Tackle in the draft, but it likely won't be on day 1, and may not even be on day 2. If the Ravens are that concerned about Stanley, there's no way they sit idly by in FA and pigeon-hole themselves in the draft to find a starting LT in the 20s or 30s, wherever they draft. You can do that when you're the 2016 Ravens and picking at #6, and there's two prospects you like a lot. They won't have that luxury this year.

You’re digging too deep lol, this a pretty strong tackle class in rounds 1 and 2, it’s a need now and for the future and it’s a high value position, having quality tackles on your roster only makes your team better, I mean we just flipped a third round OT into a first 3 years later, having a starting OT on the bench is a luxury even a SB contending team wants, look at our super bowl team for example, we had 3 OTs on the team and shifted around cone playoff time and boom our line improved dramatically just in time.

I get where you’re coming from though, you dont want a first round pick that’s not gonna contribute heavily right away because of our super bowl window, but thats the game, I’d rather take a OT who waits til year 2 to start than take a bust, and there looks to be some really promising tackles in the first 2 rounds. I really like Abraham Lucas at RT, Trevor penning, Charles cross, Nicholas petit-frere, all super promising, you’d have to think at least one of those guys becomes a respectable starter. I’m iffy on Rasheed walker and Zion Nelson, but really high upside guys, obinna eze has loads of potential as well but is quite the project. There’s a solid chance we can get a dude early in the draft I’d say

 

[rmcjacket23]

You’re digging too deep lol, this a pretty strong tackle class in rounds 1 and 2, it’s a need now and for the future and it’s a high value position, having quality tackles on your roster only makes your team better, I mean we just flipped a third round OT into a first 3 years later, having a starting OT on the bench is a luxury even a SB contending team wants, look at our super bowl team for example, we had 3 OTs on the team and shifted around cone playoff time and boom our line improved dramatically just in time.

I get where you’re coming from though, you dont want a first round pick that’s not gonna contribute heavily right away because of our super bowl window, but thats the game, I’d rather take a OT who waits til year 2 to start than take a bust, and there looks to be some really promising tackles in the first 2 rounds. I really like Abraham Lucas at RT, Trevor penning, Charles cross, Nicholas petit-frere, all super promising, you’d have to think at least one of those guys becomes a respectable starter. I’m iffy on Rasheed walker and Zion Nelson, but really high upside guys, obinna eze has loads of potential as well but is quite the project. There’s a solid chance we can get a dude early in the draft I’d say

Right, but "early" in the draft is subjective. If you're talking day 2 possibilities, I'm 100% on board with that. I think that's a foregone conclusion quite frankly.

My point is that fans need to get out of their head that our first round pick next year has to be a Tackle. Generally speaking, you're not going to find the Ronnie Stanley replacement on day 2. You'll have a hard enough time finding him on day 1, given where we'll be drafting. You can very easily find a quality backup LT who can also play RT really well (basically what OBJ was, only probably not as good).

But there's no scenario I see where the Ravens FO allows themselves to be stuck with having to get a Tackle early in the draft. I thought they were pretty damn close to needing to do that this past year, and they clearly didn't. In fact, they didn't address it at all in the draft. I feel like our need at Tackle is arguably less going into 2022 than it was going into 2021.

If we get to a point where we have low confidence of Stanley returning, we will add a veteran in FA AND likely a draft pick. Adding the veteran allows us to not be stuck forcing ourselves into drafting positions vs players in the draft. I understand that fans and analysts and everybody else will tell you its a strong OT class, and that's likely to be true. But that doesn't mean our FO will value said players the same way.

 

[Simba]

The thing with T and OL as a whole… Zeitler might be the only guy locked into a spot next year as it currently stands. If you take a T early and Stanley and James come back and kill it, that’s a good problem to have. We have next to no sure things on the OL right now.

 

[rossihunter2]

Well with Cleveland, if all players are healthy, he's seemingly your 4th Guard. So in order for him to become a "starter", he'll need at least two injuries to players ahead of him, which is what he got earlier this year (briefly). He would be behind Powers and Phillips at Guard if all were healthy. Maybe that changes next year, but maybe he goes the route of Bredeson, and it doesn't. If either Powers or Phillips were to be FAs next year or something like that, then yes, I see the merit. But given that Powers has another year and Phillips has two more years (assuming neither gets an extension), he's going to have to outplay those guys in order to get that spot. That's an open question in my eyes.

As for Wallace, we can talk about the "value" of said player all day long, but I just didn't like taking a WR in that spot with all of the investments you've made in the position in the last three years. I feel we could have found "value" from a linebacker or Tackle or edge rusher or somebody else in that spot.

I left Stephens off my list because I think he's doing what I would expect somebody in his shoes to do. He's not a starter yet, which is fine, he may or may not be next year, and he actually won the "backup" Safety job, meaning when there's an injury, he's on the field. Both Wallace and Cleveland are multiple injuries away from being a backup basically, so it's not like if Bateman or Phillips gets hurt that they're now starters. That's the worrisome part for me. They're several deviations from being role players on offense/defense. And in my opinion, that path to being a role player is likely to decrease instead of increase in future years.

i mean that's a weird frame of mind to have about cleveland - he's a rookie who's had some injuries and you're already writing off his chances to beat out 2 guys who've not managed to establish themselves or stabilize the position...

id say its pretty obvious he's behind powers but the coaches dont want him to be because they were rotating him with powers after phillips went down

and i like phillips but he also hasnt grabbed hold of the LG job this year (or the RG job last year) with both hands either - again most likely due to injury but i dont see why it's so far-fetched that cleveland might win that LG job in an open competition next offseason with a year's development

i personally think phillips is the best LG on the team right now but he's not established and cleveland has all sorts of athletic, physical and mental traits that very well could allow him to develop and become the starter

i dont get why it seems a foregone conclusion that he cant/wont outplay powers and phillips (especially given the coaching staff clearly not wanting powers to be the starter)

and hard to say that cleveland's multiple inuries away from being the backup when he's already basically rotated as the starter after Phillips went down... that would suggest he's pretty close to already being the backup straight out of the gates right?

i think the other part of this is... fans dont get dissatisfied with draft picks for no reason - show me the guy we should have picked that fans would have wanted us to take instead at tackle or edge or linebacker or guard in those spots... i had some developmental guys i liked but they've also done nothing so far in the league (because most rookies dont)

i really wanted spencer brown but he got taken the pick before

BPA on my board when we took cleveland were:
Ronnie Perkins
Daviyon Nixon
Trey Smith
Deonte Brown
Quinn Meinerz

i was disappointed we took Cleveland because i wasnt his biggest fan but only 2 of those guys have really done anything so far and Trey Smith had blood clots that dropped him to the 6th round for a reason and Daviyon Nixon also had health problems that dropped him...

Perkins has hardly factored, deonte brown is only just getting his weight down to a good place (and is now on i/r), meinerz is a backup...

BPA not at WR for me when we took tylan wallace:
the aforementioned Daviyon Nixon, Trey Smith, Deonte Brown
Ar'darius Washington
Jamar Johnson
Kary Vincent Jr
Tre Brown
Quincy Roche
Janarius Robinson
Israel Mukuamu

who are mostly DBs and we saw we literally had to trade away one of our rookie DBs this offseason because we literally didnt have space with the competition at that spot - so not sure who the guy we clamour for instead of wallace is either...

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Right, but "early" in the draft is subjective. If you're talking day 2 possibilities, I'm 100% on board with that. I think that's a foregone conclusion quite frankly.

My point is that fans need to get out of their head that our first round pick next year has to be a Tackle. Generally speaking, you're not going to find the Ronnie Stanley replacement on day 2. You'll have a hard enough time finding him on day 1, given where we'll be drafting. You can very easily find a quality backup LT who can also play RT really well (basically what OBJ was, only probably not as good).

But there's no scenario I see where the Ravens FO allows themselves to be stuck with having to get a Tackle early in the draft. I thought they were pretty damn close to needing to do that this past year, and they clearly didn't. In fact, they didn't address it at all in the draft. I feel like our need at Tackle is arguably less going into 2022 than it was going into 2021.

If we get to a point where we have low confidence of Stanley returning, we will add a veteran in FA AND likely a draft pick. Adding the veteran allows us to not be stuck forcing ourselves into drafting positions vs players in the draft. I understand that fans and analysts and everybody else will tell you its a strong OT class, and that's likely to be true. But that doesn't mean our FO will value said players the same way.

I got you, you are talking about the FO locking in on a OT no matter what ala Houston with tytus Howard, and yes that would be bad, what I’m saying is that I wouldn’t be shocked to see a quality OT available at the end of the first. So yeah take a OT if the value is there but if there is an edge/S/cb/lb who is a better value then go that route

 

[BoredMarine13]

Im curious how everyone is feeling about the rest of the season. I feel a lot of anxiety from fans but at this point Im pretty happy where we stand all things considered.

I can’t help but feel we’re playing with house money. Just to many injuries for this team to really be successful …. Yet here we sit at 5-2. Is it sustainable? Probably not, but I’m not stressing because it already feels like we’re over achieving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Simba]

Im curious how everyone is feeling about the rest of the season. I feel a lot of anxiety from fans but at this point Im pretty happy where we stand all things considered.

I can’t help but feel we’re playing with house money. Just to many injuries for this team to really be successful …. Yet here we sit at 5-2. Is it sustainable? Probably not, but I’m not stressing because it already feels like we’re over achieving.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We’re a good but flawed and inconsistent team. When we put all of the pieces together, we’re as tough as any team in the league. When something is missing, we can quickly become among the worst. It’s all up to them to figure out who they are. I think we’re doing extremely well considering the injury circumstances but that doesn’t mean we’re some juggernaut without issues. Just have to hide the gaps.

From my perspective, we can find ourselves the #1 seed just as easily as I can see us being a middle of the pack team. The good news is that most teams are in a similar boat this year. Just have to play better than the opponent every week.

 

[D1City55]

Right, but "early" in the draft is subjective. If you're talking day 2 possibilities, I'm 100% on board with that. I think that's a foregone conclusion quite frankly.

My point is that fans need to get out of their head that our first round pick next year has to be a Tackle. Generally speaking, you're not going to find the Ronnie Stanley replacement on day 2. You'll have a hard enough time finding him on day 1, given where we'll be drafting. You can very easily find a quality backup LT who can also play RT really well (basically what OBJ was, only probably not as good).

But there's no scenario I see where the Ravens FO allows themselves to be stuck with having to get a Tackle early in the draft. I thought they were pretty damn close to needing to do that this past year, and they clearly didn't. In fact, they didn't address it at all in the draft. I feel like our need at Tackle is arguably less going into 2022 than it was going into 2021.

If we get to a point where we have low confidence of Stanley returning, we will add a veteran in FA AND likely a draft pick. Adding the veteran allows us to not be stuck forcing ourselves into drafting positions vs players in the draft. I understand that fans and analysts and everybody else will tell you its a strong OT class, and that's likely to be true. But that doesn't mean our FO will value said players the same way.

I can’t help but agree here, I would be very disappointed if we picked a LT. Anywhere else on the OL is fine with me but having a stud OL doesn’t make up for all the other deficiencies we have. Bozeman is a quality C but right now I would rather move him back to LG and make a move there if an elite day 1 guy is there, even LG or a swing tackle works, but not everyone who plays on the left is capable of swinging over to the right, if we draft someone who fits only on the left it would be a massive disappointment.

I know people are down on Stanley but he will have plenty of time to recover by the time next season rolls around, its too premature go give up on him given how much hes owed on his deal still, not to mention the other holes on this team. Safety, CB, LB, Edge, Interior DL, ect. This defense has a lot of soon to be FAs and will be revamped, we can’t just use a first on someone who won’t see the field for a few years.

 

[Simba]

I can’t help but agree here, I would be very disappointed if we picked a LT. Anywhere else on the OL is fine with me but having a stud OL doesn’t make up for all the other deficiencies we have. Bozeman is a quality C but right now I would rather move him back to LG and make a move there if an elite day 1 guy is there, even LG or a swing tackle works, but not everyone who plays on the left is capable of swinging over to the right, if we draft someone who fits only on the left it would be a massive disappointment.

I know people are down on Stanley but he will have plenty of time to recover by the time next season rolls around, its too premature go give up on him given how much hes owed on his deal still, not to mention the other holes on this team. Safety, CB, LB, Edge, Interior DL, ect. This defense has a lot of soon to be FAs and will be revamped, we can’t just use a first on someone who won’t see the field for a few years.

Weve seen countless guys slide inside and play G to start their careers. If they draft an OL high, he’s going to play whether that’s inside or outside. Just need to get over the assumption that Stanley and James both come back fine and at a high level. James has largely been a solid and unspectacular option regardless. He’s not stopping anyone from playing if they draft someone early.

 

[drjohnnyfever]

The thing with T and OL as a whole… Zeitler might be the only guy locked into a spot next year as it currently stands. If you take a T early and Stanley and James come back and kill it, that’s a good problem to have. We have next to no sure things on the OL right now.

You got it! Yep, we've got money tied up in FA guys, so if we choose to eat contract in Villanueva and/or Zeitler that almost completely negates - at least for me - another OL FA coming in because you're signing money is already at a deficit. And if you decide not to eat contract and just pay it, you're still in that situation of having live money locked into the position crippling your ability to sign the better pool of OL candidates. The only way to fortify it is thru the draft with guys who are going to play relatively cheap on rookie deals. Time to make some good picks when they come up.

 

[rossihunter2]

You got it! Yep, we've got money tied up in FA guys, so if we choose to eat contract in Villanueva and/or Zeitler that almost completely negates - at least for me - another OL FA coming in because you're signing money is already at a deficit. And if you decide not to eat contract and just pay it, you're still in that situation of having live money locked into the position crippling your ability to sign the better pool of OL candidates. The only way to fortify it is thru the draft with guys who are going to play relatively cheap on rookie deals. Time to make some good picks when they come up.

we save 6m if we cut villanueva before the 5th day of the 2022 league year...
not exactly "eating" the contract to get rid of him

 

[Simba]

You got it! Yep, we've got money tied up in FA guys, so if we choose to eat contract in Villanueva and/or Zeitler that almost completely negates - at least for me - another OL FA coming in because you're signing money is already at a deficit. And if you decide not to eat contract and just pay it, you're still in that situation of having live money locked into the position crippling your ability to sign the better pool of OL candidates. The only way to fortify it is thru the draft with guys who are going to play relatively cheap on rookie deals. Time to make some good picks when they come up.

Zeitler is here next year no questions at this point. I'd be shocked if AV is back. Savings are too great and that was really just a 1 year deal dressed up as a 2 year deal anyways.

 

[Charm City]

Is there some sort of injury mechanism built into the cap where we can recoup some of the money given to Stanley since he hasn't played in basically two seasons?