The Bad, the Ugly, and the Ravens: Week 17 Edition

[cdp]

Definitely would prefer to see more production in that area than the 15 total disruptions on the year, even with the limited snaps. But to your point, the latter is part of the issue.

Do you know if Williams lined up more as a 3 or 5-tech this season?

 

[Truth]

Seriously, Not a single play?? It's BS like this I don't like our management very much. As tight as we are against the cap. And breaking open the bank for a one dimensional run plugging space eater. And it's not like he is overly dominant at that. Big Bods that can only plug holes and blockers come a dime a dozen. There were a couple in the middle rounds of the draft like DJ Jones. He actually has some playmaking athleticism. If we would of drafted Grady over Carl Davis there wouldn't be a need to pay Williams that $60Mil!!

To be fair, again, I've been very high on Jarrett since his Clemson days, but I could partly understand passing on him. He was a far more ideal fit in a one-gap scheme, where he now plays opposite of former NT Dontari Poe. Our scheme wouldn't have been as favorable to Jarrett. We didn't have another strong NT candidate in Michael Pierce when he was drafted, so it's doubtful that we could've envisioned Williams being expendable down the line. I should note that we've run Nickle and Dime packages often, so drafting a sub-package rusher in Jarrett would've made total sense in the 5th, so I'm there with you in him adding to our defense. But the situation would've been murkier than implied above.

 

[Truth]

Literally all of them were very underwhelming. Carr was decent for most of the season and what I expected. But even woodhead was a piece we didn’t really use or probably even need. Just wasted money. Should’ve just kept smoke

We also lost Young and Dixon, whom were arguably as good or better options than those two. Losing Yanda also didn't help.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

I'm somewhat surprised to hear the coverage be referred to as a Tampa 2 variation. From my understanding, Tampa 2 refers to zone coverages wherein the MLB drops to the middle third. On this particular play, Eric Weddle was closest to the area, playing just above the sticks. C.J. Mosley and Chuck Clark were covering the deep seam/hooks. In my eyes, and this is purely my initial interpretation, but it ended up appearing to be more akin to a combo-coverage three-deep variation of the Cover 2 sink, with man coverage on the outside.

We came out in a dime package, specifically 3-2-6. Matthew Judon, Willie Henry and Za'Darius Smith are technically down linemen in three point stances. Terrell Suggs is in a two-point stance and is therefore an ROLB. Weddle makes a check to Chuck Clark, pointing out his zone, after Andy Dalton motions TE C.J. Uzomah to the right slot and motions RB Giovanni Bernard to the inside, who runs a delayed hitch route after protecting the A-gaps. Weddle shuffles backwards into his zone, settling in underneath, sitting down closer to the vertical seam than the actual middle third. That to me signifies the Cover 2 sink, which when in a three-deep package, sends the two outside safeties to cover the deep halves outside of the hashes and sits the middle safety in the vertical seam. I should mention that it's normally run out of the quarter package, which gives me reason to question my interpretation. That aside, not only is it countered perfectly by Tyler Boyd's go route from the right outside slot, but Canady also sees Mosley in front of Boyd and sells out to Brandon LaFell, quickly flipping his hips toward the sideline and drifting in LaFell's direction. Upon realizing that Boyd is the intended target, instead of flipping his hips back inside, he makes a full turn-around the other way, losing Boyd's location in the process, overestimating his depth, and ultimately overrunning the route and the tackle lane. In short, from the attempt to basically double LaFell and the poor coordination that followed, it was among the worst ways to perform the task.

That being said, in my personal opinion, a significant portion of the onus falls on the play call, which as per usual, begun with multiple defenders showing faux A-gap blitzes, causing them to run to their zones and then react afterwards. To Pees' partial defense, we did send a couple of blitzes on the drive, so it wasn't entirely an empty threat. But on a 4th and 12, why not allow your defenders to sit in their zones and guard the sticks instead of worrying about getting to their placements first? To me, it's a microcosm of the same issue that was on tape for multiple weeks, which was innately there to exploit due to the design of our zone looks. I do feel that if Canady simply backpedaled like Weddle and Jefferson, instead of starring down LaFell before the ball was even throw, that he'd have a clear chance to prevent the completion. But like the execution, the call itself left a lot to be desired as well.

I see you beat me to it with an analysis. I posted what I personally saw on the "Bye Marty, Pees, Harbaugh," thread. Good to see I'm not the only one who is pretty confused about the alignment and usage of players, but I'm interested to see what you have to say about what I shared.

 

[RavensMania]

Literally all of them were very underwhelming. Carr was decent for most of the season and what I expected. But even woodhead was a piece we didn’t really use or probably even need. Just wasted money. Should’ve just kept smoke

Hindsight is 20/20. No one knew that Buck was going to do as well as he did as a 3rd down back and we didn’t have Collins at the start of the season. Woodhead wasn’t that much and I wouldn’t be surprised if we keep him.

 

[TheCity5]

That being said, in my personal opinion, a significant portion of the onus falls on the play call, which as per usual, begun with multiple defenders showing faux A-gap blitzes, causing them to run to their zones and then react afterwards. To Pees' partial defense, we did send a couple of blitzes on the drive, so it wasn't entirely an empty threat. But on a 4th and 12, why not allow your defenders to sit in their zones and guard the sticks instead of worrying about getting to their placements first? To me, it's a microcosm of the same issue that was on tape for multiple weeks, which was innately there to exploit due to the design of our zone looks. I do feel that if Canady simply backpedaled like Weddle and Jefferson, instead of starring down LaFell before the ball was even throw, that he'd have a clear chance to prevent the completion. But like the execution, the call itself left a lot to be desired as well.

I think what drew Canady to LaFell might have been the fact that on first glance, it looked like LaFell had a step on Carr and maybe just had a knee jerk reaction. Even though in this instance his responsibility is the deep half, I do agree his positioning was poor.

My question is, if Weddle's responsibility is the hook, and Mosley's is the seam, then what is the point of having Mosley in the gap rather then having him above the sticks? In a Tampa 2 you always have a LB drop deep into Coverage so why not have Weddle play close to the gap and
take care of the hook? I just think this just over-complicate things and clearly there were a lot of players who were out of position here. Seeing it from the All-22, I do agree that the play call is very questionable.

 

[DeVito52]

Hindsight is 20/20. No one knew that Buck was going to do as well as he did as a 3rd down back and we didn’t have Collins at the start of the season. Woodhead wasn’t that much and I wouldn’t be surprised if we keep him.

Buck has always been a good pass catcher and it wouldn’t have been far fetched to envision him doing well in his role.

 

[rossihunter2]

Literally all of them were very underwhelming. Carr was decent for most of the season and what I expected. But even woodhead was a piece we didn’t really use or probably even need. Just wasted money. Should’ve just kept smoke

i have a serious issue with this - woodhead was phenomenal on 3rd down down the stretch - his blitz pickups were incredible and his ability to get open out of the slot near the sticks was beautiful to see - towards the end of the year part of how the offence improved was through opening the defence up with no back sets on 3rd downs with a nice combination of personnel (camp, woodhead, moore, wallace, watson) and its a look that only works because woodhead is a shifty runner off a delayed handoff, is excellent in pass pro and blitz pickup and can beat a db in man coverage - those qualities were invaluable in our offensive turnaround

 

[Truth]

i have a serious issue with this - woodhead was phenomenal on 3rd down down the stretch - his blitz pickups were incredible and his ability to get open out of the slot near the sticks was beautiful to see - towards the end of the year part of how the offence improved was through opening the defence up with no back sets on 3rd downs with a nice combination of personnel (camp, woodhead, moore, wallace, watson) and its a look that only works because woodhead is a shifty runner off a delayed handoff, is excellent in pass pro and blitz pickup and can beat a db in man coverage - those qualities were invaluable in our offensive turnaround

I thought Woodhead has been a quality addition, if it means anything at all.

 

[RavensMania]

Seriously, Not a single play?? It's BS like this I don't like our management very much. As tight as we are against the cap. And breaking open the bank for a one dimensional run plugging space eater. And it's not like he is overly dominant at that. Big Bods that can only plug holes and blockers come a dime a dozen. There were a couple in the middle rounds of the draft like DJ Jones. He actually has some playmaking athleticism. If we would of drafted Grady over Carl Davis there wouldn't be a need to pay Williams that $60Mil!!

It’s really hard to claim that we would have made the playoffs if we had signed Claiborne, instead of Carr. Especially since Claiborne was the 98th rated cb, giving up 30 more points than Carr. Let’s not forget, Carr had four interceptions this year also, Claiborne had one interception in 15 games.

Another part of the equation is the contract with Carr is very team friendly, with option years in every year of the contract and a very team friendly deal. Claiborne ended up getting a one yr contract, but most likely wanted a longer contract when we brought him in, as well as more money. This last part is just an opinion, but that’s just belief.

Anyway, with this information, you can’t really say he would have been better than Carr.

 

[DeVito52]

i have a serious issue with this - woodhead was phenomenal on 3rd down down the stretch - his blitz pickups were incredible and his ability to get open out of the slot near the sticks was beautiful to see - towards the end of the year part of how the offence improved was through opening the defence up with no back sets on 3rd downs with a nice combination of personnel (camp, woodhead, moore, wallace, watson) and its a look that only works because woodhead is a shifty runner off a delayed handoff, is excellent in pass pro and blitz pickup and can beat a db in man coverage - those qualities were invaluable in our offensive turnaround

Fair enough. I just expected us to use him a little more than we did I guess.

 

[rossihunter2]

Fair enough. I just expected us to use him a little more than we did I guess.

i mean he was getting a large number of snaps every game its just he wont necessarily be running a route or carrying the ball on every snap...
also he was on i/r for the first 9 games of the year or whatever it was so naturally he'll have been eased in a little

 

[DeVito52]

i mean he was getting a large number of snaps every game its just he wont necessarily be running a route or carrying the ball on every snap...
also he was on i/r for the first 9 games of the year or whatever it was so naturally he'll have been eased in a little

That’s probably why it seems he wasn’t largely involved. He wasn’t on the active roster for half the season...for some reason that slipped my mind. Lol

 

[Truth]

I think what drew Canady to LaFell might have been the fact that on first glance, it looked like LaFell had a step on Carr and maybe just had a knee jerk reaction. Even though in this instance his responsibility is the deep half, I do agree his positioning was poor.

My question is, if Weddle's responsibility is the hook, and Mosley's is the seam, then what is the point of having Mosley in the gap rather then having him above the sticks? In a Tampa 2 you always have a LB drop deep into Coverage so why not have Weddle play close to the gap and
take care of the hook? I just think this just over-complicate things and clearly there were a lot of players who were out of position here. Seeing it from the All-22, I do agree that the play call is very questionable.

Honestly, at this point, I strongly disagree with this being a Tampa 2 coverage. Tampa 2 is predicated upon the MLB covering anywhere from the vertical seam to the middle third, and that area is occupied by Weddle. Mosley is basically covering what amounts to the deep hook/curl zone just inside of the numbers, mirroring Clark on the other side. My main issue with the possibility of Canady doubling on LaFell is that LaFell didn't have a semblance of clear separation at the time that Canady trailed off in his direction. At this very moment, Canady has already zeroed in on LaFell (Link), with his eyes squarely inside the numbers. Carr to that point surrendered 16 yards, so he wasn't likely to struggle with LaFell, a WR without a second gear with 35 yards to that point and an ugly drop. I truly have a difficult time seeing the need to overextend in that scenario.

Here's why I personally attribute the results mainly to Canady instead of Mosley. This is the outlook as Dalton is gearing up for the throw (Link). I've highlighted where the catch was made. Coincidentally, it's almost a mirror reflection of where Tony Jefferson is positioned on the opposite side, whom is also covering the same exact principles. Jefferson, Clark, Weddle and Mosley are all facing the QB. The latter three remain shallow given that they have expected help over the top. We now know that it's a go-route by Boyd. However, at the time, this was obviously not a given. If Mosley carries himself up the field and Boyd sits down at the sticks, it's a possible first down. If he carries himself up the seam and Boyd continues, they could dump it to Bernard and attempt to convert to the now-open side. Both aren't quite likely, but that's why Mosley stays home in his zone, and do Weddle and Clark. It is incredibly difficult to successfully be a hero in zone coverage on the back end. Each level trusts the players behind them to be in position. Not only is Canady not near the zone, he's also facing the complete opposite direction as it's about to be made. Could Mosley have drifted back further? Perhaps so, but the catch is made 7 yards behind him, at the exact spot where the safety was seemingly intended to be, and I don't believe that this was his designation. He would've had to vacate his zone entirely. To me, the play falls apart entirely the moment that Canady makes the decision to commit entirely to LaFell. It was far from a perfect play-call as well, as both you and I have mentioned. But looking at the second image above, it's hard not to wonder what would've happened if Canady was in position. If he's staying home and facing the play, it could very well be dead in the water for Cincinnati baring a miraculous catch and/or YAC. That's just my opinion though. Take it only for what it's worth.

 

[Truth]

I see you beat me to it with an analysis. I posted what I personally saw on the "Bye Marty, Pees, Harbaugh," thread. Good to see I'm not the only one who is pretty confused about the alignment and usage of players, but I'm interested to see what you have to say about what I shared.

I hope my explanation above sheds some light on my perception. At worst, we both agree that the execution was lacking.

 

[rossihunter2]

It was far from a perfect play-call as well, as both you and I have mentioned. But looking at the second image above, it's hard not to wonder what would've happened if Canady was in position. If he's staying home and facing the play, it could very well be dead in the water for Cincinnati baring a miraculous catch and/or YAC. That's just my opinion though. Take it only for what it's worth.

what's extra disappointing in this case then is how well canady has played the last few weeks and how he made the game winning 4th down pass defensed vs the colts only the week before

 

[Truth]

what's extra disappointing in this case then is how well canady has played the last few weeks and how he made the game winning 4th down pass defensed vs the colts only the week before

Does make it more difficult. I'm personally fuming that we didn't call a time out after they motioned out their players.

 

[redrum52]

We fucking saved Marvin Lewis' job and broke the Bills playoff drought. Fuck you, Ravens!

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Honestly, at this point, I strongly disagree with this being a Tampa 2 coverage. Tampa 2 is predicated upon the MLB covering anywhere from the vertical seam to the middle third, and that area is occupied by Weddle. Mosley is basically covering what amounts to the deep hook/curl zone just inside of the numbers, mirroring Clark on the other side. My main issue with the possibility of Canady doubling on LaFell is that LaFell didn't have a semblance of clear separation at the time that Canady trailed off in his direction. At this very moment, Canady has already zeroed in on LaFell (Link), with his eyes squarely inside the numbers. Carr to that point surrendered 16 yards, so he wasn't likely to struggle with LaFell, a WR without a second gear with 35 yards to that point and an ugly drop. I truly have a difficult time seeing the need to overextend in that scenario.

Here's why I personally attribute the results mainly to Canady instead of Mosley. This is the outlook as Dalton is gearing up for the throw (Link). I've highlighted where the catch was made. Coincidentally, it's almost a mirror reflection of where Tony Jefferson is positioned on the opposite side, whom is also covering the same exact principles. Jefferson, Clark, Weddle and Mosley are all facing the QB. The latter three remain shallow given that they have expected help over the top. We now know that it's a go-route by Boyd. However, at the time, this was obviously not a given. If Mosley carries himself up the field and Boyd sits down at the sticks, it's a possible first down. If he carries himself up the seam and Boyd continues, they could dump it to Bernard and attempt to convert to the now-open side. Both aren't quite likely, but that's why Mosley stays home in his zone, and do Weddle and Clark. It is incredibly difficult to successfully be a hero in zone coverage on the back end. Each level trusts the players behind them to be in position. Not only is Canady not near the zone, he's also facing the complete opposite direction as it's about to be made. Could Mosley have drifted back further? Perhaps so, but the catch is made 7 yards behind him, at the exact spot where the safety was seemingly intended to be, and I don't believe that this was his designation. He would've had to vacate his zone entirely. To me, the play falls apart entirely the moment that Canady makes the decision to commit entirely to LaFell. It was far from a perfect play-call as well, as both you and I have mentioned. But looking at the second image above, it's hard not to wonder what would've happened if Canady was in position. If he's staying home and facing the play, it could very well be dead in the water for Cincinnati baring a miraculous catch and/or YAC. That's just my opinion though. Take it only for what it's worth.

I disagree to an extent about who was responsible for who. Right from the get go, it was Weddle and Clark who took the tight end and Bernard into coverage. Weddle right from the get go doesn't even look at Boyd and Clark seems to zero in on Bernard.

It wasn't until Dalton began to settle in on the possibility of throwing to Boyd that Weddle even came off of his man and began to run toward Boyd. Mosley, on the other hand, instantly darts up field to carry Boyd. There wasn't any hesitation about it. And furthermore to aid in it being Tampa 2, Mosley DID settle in at about 13 or so yards, about where you'd expect the Mike to drop for his deep thirds.

One thing we CAN entirely agree upon, though, is that the biggest culprit is Canady. Why was he committing so hard to LaFell? Carr had LaFell pinned squarely to the sideline and with so little separation, that's an incredibly high degree of difficulty to make that throw and catch and on fourth down, you're not throwing that ball there. But, how Canady reacted is pretty much what we'd expect in a Tampa 2, which makes me believe it was that further. I wonder if Canady was just playing way too strict to his zone and not reacting to what was actually happening on the field.

Personally, I actually feel the play call was right. Humphrey and Jefferson took away Green, Carr has LaFell covered well, Mosley is taking Boyd down the seam and clearly expects help over the top and if Canady is there, like he should be, that's covered. Underneath, Weddle has the tight end (guessing Kroft) and Clark has Bernard. Really, if Canady covers Boyd over the top, I don't see any way that play actually works out for the Bengals.

And yes, we can 100% agree on terrible execution on the part of the Ravens.

 

[K-Dog]

I'm still mad over the loss. 4th and 12 ......

Let it go man. Really.
For your health let it go.
It has nothing to do with you whatsoever.
It is just a game.