Next Up: @ Bucs

[UPennChem]

Fans assuming we couldn't properly utilize high-end talent if Eric went after them is pretty sad. Unfortunately, this is how far we've fallen with Greg Roman at the helm. I think back to 2018 at the challenge Mornhinweg faced going from a Flacco-led offense to Lamar mid-season. A more difficult challenge than incorporating a WR into our current rotation. Yet we pulled it off. It was a complete overhaul of the offense, with Baltimore looking nothing like it did with Flacco under center. We shifted from a high-volume passing attack to a heavily run-centric one without skipping a beat. Complete shift both in scheme and identity.

Yeah I don't get it at all. In fact, more generally I don't know why any of us pretend like we can predict the future at all. The worst part of it is just asserting shit like you have any idea about anything. I love ideas and I love retrospective analysis of what we've seen. But why we just assert stuff is beyond me.

 

[JO_75]

HUGE! Our offense should click on all cylinders, passing and running.

 

[Deebo813]

For the sake of argument, lets say we traded for a top receiver in todays league. Awesome, EDC just managed a HEIST and we brought in Justin Jefferson and paired him with our current core.

Jefferson, Bateman, Duv

Do you think our offensive concepts would change enough to utilize that trio? Or do you think we are going to jump out the gate in a 22 personnel and continue with RPO's

Jeffro would probably retire from nfl lol.. going from having an hall of fame career to not even a pro bowler

 

[rmcjacket23]

Why? We already did it once in 2018 with Marty/Lamar

Yeah, except that largely sucked. We basically just ran the ball all the time and let Lamar throw it like 15 times a game. It's why everybody knew we were dead money in the playoffs.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Fans assuming we couldn't properly utilize high-end talent if Eric went after them is pretty sad. Unfortunately, this is how far we've fallen with Greg Roman at the helm. I think back to 2018 at the challenge Mornhinweg faced going from a Flacco-led offense to Lamar mid-season. A more difficult challenge than incorporating a WR into our current rotation. Yet we pulled it off. It was a complete overhaul of the offense, with Baltimore looking nothing like it did with Flacco under center. We shifted from a high-volume passing attack to a heavily run-centric one without skipping a beat. Complete shift both in scheme and identity.

Yeah, except it wasn't a super effective one. Why do you think our 2019 offense looked a lot different than the 2018 one (even with Lamar)?
The switch from Joe to Lamar yielded us basically one point per week of offense. There was a lot of factors that yielded that output, but better defensive performance, lesser opponents, and a mid-season shift to a run-heavy offense was part of it.

But everybody and their mother knew that the 2nd half offense we were had a 0% chance of being sustainable, and it proved how that way also.

Regardless, this conversation is kind of moot for me. If you bring in a high-end pass catcher, Lamar's not going to start throwing it 45-50 times a game. That's not even an offense that I think will be productive even with a high-end receiver. They may throw slightly more, but the only real benefit is less double teams and more target share among multiple players. We would still run the ball a lot, and the offense would still run through that process.

 

[rossihunter2]

For the sake of argument, lets say we traded for a top receiver in todays league. Awesome, EDC just managed a HEIST and we brought in Justin Jefferson and paired him with our current core.

Jefferson, Bateman, Duv

Do you think our offensive concepts would change enough to utilize that trio? Or do you think we are going to jump out the gate in a 22 personnel and continue with RPO's

we dont run many RPOs and we've seen GRo consistently adjust to the personnel we have

last year we were low on TEs and had maybe the best WR group we've had in a long time and we ran more 11 personnel than at any other point in Lamar's career, it just doesnt get remembered because half of it was with Huntley in at QB

good players arent going to sit on the bench

Ricard doesnt play massive snap counts because he's a FB, he plays massive snap counts because he's really good

 

[Deebo813]

we dont run many RPOs and we've seen GRo consistently adjust to the personnel we have

last year we were low on TEs and had maybe the best WR group we've had in a long time and we ran more 11 personnel than at any other point in Lamar's career, it just doesnt get remembered because half of it was with Huntley in at QB

good players arent going to sit on the bench

Ricard doesnt play massive snap counts because he's a FB, he plays massive snap counts because he's really good

I think its also to keep defenses on their toes. Cant just have him in during run plays, would be to obvious and predictable.

 

[rossihunter2]

Nope, not a chance. For starters, Duvernay would rarely see targets, much like the current #3 target in the offense doesn't see many targets when Bateman and Andrews are healthy.

we're not talking about targets here though, we're talking about personnel

the ravens have spent a bunch of time in 12 and 22 personnel and undoubtedly if they brought in a high calibre WR, they would spend a lot of time in 21 and 11 personnel instead

 

[rmcjacket23]

we're not talking about targets here though, we're talking about personnel

the ravens have spent a bunch of time in 12 and 22 personnel and undoubtedly if they brought in a high calibre WR, they would spend a lot of time in 21 and 11 personnel instead

Right, and I'm saying I don't think they'd change that personnel grouping much mid-season. Maybe slightly more towards 11, but I don't think it'd be super noticeable.
If its a multi-year transaction, sure, I can see them changing predominant personnel groupings in the offseason. Just don't see it happening midseason, regardless of acquisitions.

 

[rossihunter2]

I think its also to keep defenses on their toes. Cant just have him in during run plays, would be to obvious and predictable.

he also has been valuable in the pass game for us - he's a major reason why we were in that bills game
i would like to see us leave less guy in protections more consistently and i think with Stanley's ever-increasing return and the continuing ascension of Linderbaum, we may well see that more and more which will naturally reduce ricard's snaps on 2nd/3rd and longs at least

 

[rossihunter2]

Right, and I'm saying I don't think they'd change that personnel grouping much mid-season. Maybe slightly more towards 11, but I don't think it'd be super noticeable.
If its a multi-year transaction, sure, I can see them changing predominant personnel groupings in the offseason. Just don't see it happening midseason, regardless of acquisitions.

we're not even talking about a change in scheme, just a change in play-calling and matchups

 

[RavensMania]

Yeah, except that largely sucked. We basically just ran the ball all the time and let Lamar throw it like 15 times a game. It's why everybody knew we were dead money in the playoffs.

we basically did ourselves in in the playoffs (2018) with all the turnovers early in the game. True this wasn't an offense that could be utilized long term, but it was effective during the regular season and without it we probably don't make the playoffs.

In 2019 we were very efficient but ran into the one team that really matched up well with us (Titans)

 

[Simba]

I'm sure I'll get lambasted and dubbed a "Roman apologist" but I'll still play devil's advocate here... have we ever though that he doesn't use the WRs because they're shit? Hollywood and Bateman both got a ton of run when they were both healthy because they're good players and you keep them on the field as much as you can. And that was with Huntley at QB. I have strong doubts that we'd have a similar philosophy if we had like a Calvin Johnson next to Bateman. I get the desire to improve the passing game but I don't think throwing Bateman, Duvernay, and whoever of the other 3 out there in consistent 3 WR sets is going to do anything because well... they aren't that good and can't be trusted to win matchups.

 

[UPennChem]

we're not talking about targets here though, we're talking about personnel

the ravens have spent a bunch of time in 12 and 22 personnel and undoubtedly if they brought in a high calibre WR, they would spend a lot of time in 21 and 11 personnel instead

Thank you

 

[UPennChem]

I'm sure I'll get lambasted and dubbed a "Roman apologist" but I'll still play devil's advocate here... have we ever though that he doesn't use the WRs because they're shit? Hollywood and Bateman both got a ton of run when they were both healthy because they're good players and you keep them on the field as much as you can. And that was with Huntley at QB. I have strong doubts that we'd have a similar philosophy if we had like a Calvin Johnson next to Bateman. I get the desire to improve the passing game but I don't think throwing Bateman, Duvernay, and whoever of the other 3 out there in consistent 3 WR sets is going to do anything because well... they aren't that good and can't be trusted to win matchups.

Exactly. We find ourselves in a weird chicken or the egg situation. Is it Roman is limited so EDC constructs the roster to his strengths? In which case fuck the WRs build the line and RBs and TEs. Or is it, EDC has totally dropped the ball on the WR room, they're total fucking garbage and so GRo is doing his best with what he has?

I flip flop back and forth but I think it's interesting that Jim Caldwell alluded to it being the later rather than the former.

 

[redrum52]

Now im fucking mad

 

[rmcjacket23]

Exactly. We find ourselves in a weird chicken or the egg situation. Is it Roman is limited so EDC constructs the roster to his strengths? In which case fuck the WRs build the line and RBs and TEs. Or is it, EDC has totally dropped the ball on the WR room, they're total fucking garbage and so GRo is doing his best with what he has?

I flip flop back and forth but I think it's interesting that Jim Caldwell alluded to it being the later rather than the former.

Probably a combination of both, and also situational.
I don't think anybody thinks Hollywood is shit. He was having a strong year in Arizona, and barring injuries, I think he'll have a strong career elsewhere. I also don't think anybody thinks Bateman or Andrews is shit.

The rest of them is kind of ?. Guys like Boykin I have no doubt he's just not very good. Somebody like Duvernay or Proche, who knows. They both may get opportunities to play elsewhere soon enough, so maybe they'll have great careers or non-existent careers.

By general take is that we've taken a good number of stabs at the WR position in the draft in recent years, and its a tough sell for me to say that we've whiffed on basically all of them. Like regardless of what people think about EDC, he's not incompetent. So I don't think its realistic to be like "yeah, he's drafted a half dozen guys in the early-to-mid rounds, and they all suck". A combination of some of them not progressing, and their usage probably being sub-optimal.

 

[Simba]

Exactly. We find ourselves in a weird chicken or the egg situation. Is it Roman is limited so EDC constructs the roster to his strengths? In which case fuck the WRs build the line and RBs and TEs. Or is it, EDC has totally dropped the ball on the WR room, they're total fucking garbage and so GRo is doing his best with what he has?

I flip flop back and forth but I think it's interesting that Jim Caldwell alluded to it being the later rather than the former.

Yeah and I think it’s fair to call out DeCosta. I don’t think it should have been a get a WR at any cost type of thing, but I think everyone and their mother knew hoping that the guys we have now plus like 7 UDFAs would yield something was a misfire. Glad Duvernay has stepped up to some extent but still not a game changing WR type of guy. Other than him and Bateman (although he’s in a rut), we have nothing useful. Can’t blame Roman for refusing to use useless pieces.

 

[rmcjacket23]

A comp 3rd and 6th for Toney. Yeah... I want nothing to do with him at that price.

 

[UPennChem]

Yeah and I think it’s fair to call out DeCosta. I don’t think it should have been a get a WR at any cost type of thing, but I think everyone and their mother knew hoping that the guys we have now plus like 7 UDFAs would yield something was a misfire. Glad Duvernay has stepped up to some extent but still not a game changing WR type of guy. Other than him and Bateman (although he’s in a rut), we have nothing useful. Can’t blame Roman for refusing to use useless pieces.

Yeah this is exactly how I see it. Don't get me wrong, I've been complaining for days saying it's so sad to see how much 12 and 22 personnel we're running all the time, but what is he supposed to do? Like seriously. He has Andrews who's great but I think clearly hurt. Then he's got Duv who can't play X, but can be a WR3. And then he's got Bateman who's supposed to be a WR1, can be a WR1, but isn't currently playing like one. Beyond those three the others may not be in the league very soon.

I just hate that we had a transcendental QB on a rookie deal and squandered it all away