Lamar Jackson

[Deebo813]

Jesus Christ thank you. Compare Hill, Watkins and Hardman to Willie Snead, Seth Roberts and a hobbled Hollywood with two big ass screws in his foot. Kelce in my opinion is 1b to Kittle’s 1a and Mandrews was playing hobbled most of the season as well. And let’s not act like Damien isn’t a good Back. He should’ve gotten MVP in the SB. This is the same system that made Alex Smith and Matt Moore look great. It also helps when you have one of the greatest offensive masterminds in NFL history calling the shots in Reid. I’d rather watch paint dry than watching RG3 play. That’s how important Lamar is to us dispute having an extremely mediocre (and that’s being generous) WR group. People need to stop downloading that KC system.

I mean if you compare them to our weapons yea. We legit probably had the worst weapons last season. Damien williams is an avg back though. Id rather have probably anyother starting rb in nfl than him

 

[JAAM]

Man y’all are crazy if you don’t think the Chiefs have the best weapons in the NFL. I’d love to hear the argument for Matt Moore and Alex Smith looking great in that system, and if you say it’s because of Reid, that just proves my other point that Mahomes has the luxury of an elite supporting cast AND one of the greatest offensive masterminds in NFL history.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I could debate it. When I see some of those guys play on other teams, and aren't nearly as productive (like a Sammy Watkins), I think it'll become pretty obvious.

Kelce probably has 1-2 more years in him, and Hill's speed will decline in the next 3-4 years like others, and they'll move on from both.

Damien Williams, who literally does nothing special from a skill-set perspective, is a quality producer on that team. That's what Andy Reid does. He can make very average players look very good, and maximize players that have limited skill sets. Guys like Hill and Hardman aren't well-rounded, diversified receivers. They're niche players. And with Mahomes and Andy Reid, they can develop an offense to fit around those niche skills.

Kelce is the only "weapon" on that team that I think can/could fit in anywhere.

You’re talking about Kelce and hill sowing down in the future but this is present and mahomes has had them in their primes thus far so that’s irrelevant to the argument. Watkins, Robinson, and hardman rotating all around at the 2 and 3 makes for a very deep group that is leagues ahead of the ravens wr group. Saying hardman had production issues as a rookie means very little, he was still a quality deep threat on a team that lives and dies by the deep ball, expecting more at this point in his career is unrealistic. And you’re downplaying tyreek hill as well, as I said earlier hill was taking the league by storm the year prior to mahomes stepping in, mahomes isn’t carrying hill or Kelce, and for being 2s and 3s they have VERY solid supporting skill players, much more than most teams in the league.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Man y’all are crazy if you don’t think the Chiefs have the best weapons in the NFL. I’d love to hear the argument for Matt Moore and Alex Smith looking great in that system, and if you say it’s because of Reid, that just proves my other point that Mahomes has the luxury of an elite supporting cast AND one of the greatest offensive masterminds in NFL history.

1. If you're taking credit for two points, sure. I don't think there's any questions that Andy Reid is an elite offensive mind and can usually make any QB look good. That, to me, is a completely separate concept from "Chiefs have elite weapons".2
2. If we're talking about weapons, we're really just talking about Hill and Kelce, because Hardman and Watkins never played with Alex Smith, and neither was really impressive at all last season or even the season before in Watkins case.

I think if your argument is how they compare to the Ravens "weapons", which are probably among the worst in the league, sure, that's obvious.

I think if health isn't a factor, and based on 2019 and prior data, I would have taken these teams in terms of "weapons" over KC:
Houston (I don't think this one is particularly close)
Tampa (duh)
Minnesota
Atlanta

I would also probably have taken the Chargers overall group as better as well.

I think if Pat Mahomes was the QB of any of those five teams, and especially if he had Andy Reid (though maybe not a requirement), I think he'd be shattering records with those teams.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I think pat is the better qb but lamar deserves number 1 based off last season. I was watching his highlights last night and the girl i was with was asking me “ which year did he do that”.. had to explain to her that all this shit happened in one year lol. I think browns hands down have the best weapons. Hooper, odb,landry,chubb and hunt.. yea its not really close lol. Dont forget about aj green,ross,mixon and boyd( well if healthy)..

I just think instead of giving credit to pat, people try to say he has the best weapons when in reality he doesnt at all. Like you said those guys are explosive af and they also compliment each other very well but individually, i dnt think theyre the best.

Seems we’re downplaying them because they aren’t all #1 prototype wrs. Yes they’re speed guys, but mahomes is a guy who uses that, no qb floats them to open spots deep downfield for trackstar receivers to run under and field it like a punt as often as mahomes does, it’s not even close. You can’t say “these guys wouldn’t do the same on other teams” and make that a viable way to downplay them, you need to see what they do to make mahomes life easier as well, and when he knows he can just drop 15 yards deep and fling it 60 and hill/hardman is gonna win the foot race to the ball, then you can’t really knock those guys, they are making plays for mahomes when he is laying the ball out there.

 

[rmcjacket23]

You’re talking about Kelce and hill sowing down in the future but this is present and mahomes has had them in their primes thus far so that’s irrelevant to the argument. Watkins, Robinson, and hardman rotating all around at the 2 and 3 makes for a very deep group that is leagues ahead of the ravens wr group. Saying hardman had production issues as a rookie means very little, he was still a quality deep threat on a team that lives and dies by the deep ball, expecting more at this point in his career is unrealistic. And you’re downplaying tyreek hill as well, as I said earlier hill was taking the league by storm the year prior to mahomes stepping in, mahomes isn’t carrying hill or Kelce, and for being 2s and 3s they have VERY solid supporting skill players, much more than most teams in the league.

1. Leagues ahead of the Ravens group? Well duh. You'd be hard pressed to find many teams in the league where that's not true. We essentially don't have a #2 or #3 WR, so by definition, anybody who has anybody even competent enough to fill that role would qualify. Sammy Watkins would walk off the boss as our #1 WR by a wide margin the second he'd sign here, and he's struggled to make an impact in a lot of places he's played. That doesn't mean he's good. It means our room sucks that bad.
2. Tyreke Hill was taking the league by storm before Mahomes, but not before he had Andy Reid. Andy Reid has made quite a few players like Tyreke Hill look quite good. Desean Jackson, a similar but less talented player, comes to mind. Life after Andy hasn't been nearly as good.

My point is pretty simple... Andy and Mahomes will be here a LOT longer than Tyreke and Kelce will. And when they're gone, you'll forget about them within a year or two, as the Chiefs will replace them with similar but likely less talented players, and they'll still score a whole bunch of points and win a whole bunch of games.

You can bookmark this or do whatever you want with it so that, 5 years from now, you'll be agreeing. If the talent is that significant, we should be seeing a significant decline when they're gone. I'm willing to throw a large amount of money that it won't happen.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Seems we’re downplaying them because they aren’t all #1 prototype wrs. Yes they’re speed guys, but mahomes is a guy who uses that, no qb floats them to open spots deep downfield for trackstar receivers to run under and field it like a punt as often as mahomes does, it’s not even close. You can’t say “these guys wouldn’t do the same on other teams” and make that a viable way to downplay them, you need to see what they do to make mahomes life easier as well, and when he knows he can just drop 15 yards deep and fling it 60 and hill/hardman is gonna win the foot race to the ball, then you can’t really knock those guys, they are making plays for mahomes when he is laying the ball out there.

I think you're also dramatically overvaluing the "deep ball". That's not what the Chiefs live and die by.

Here's a question... off the top of your head, where do you think Mahomes ranked in terms of air yards last season? Not only is it going to surprise you, but its also going to surprise you to find out a) who ranked above him and b) who he's comparable to.

The Chiefs live and die by play design/deception, speed/quickness (not necessarily down field speed) and scheming players open.

 

[rossihunter2]

I'm a bit surprised that Lamar got number one (thought he would have gotten top 5 for sure, but didn't expect the top spot), but you could tell through the other players' interviews that they were pretty much "in awe" of Lamar's play this past season, just like the rest of us.

being number 1 voted by his peers was clearly on the cards after that jets game where multiple players lined up to get his jersey and have it signed - so many that lamar had spares brought on the field for them

that just does not happen to anyone else and tells you an awful lot about what even opposing players think of him

what ben watson said was cool - as an opposing player you're not supposed to support him but you can't help but want to see him do well and do amazing things

 

[rossihunter2]

I think if you took his supporting cast and put them on other teams, they'd be a LOT weaker players.

Tyreke Hill has speed, and Kelce is a good TE. Their RBs are the definition of average, and their WRs behind Hill are below average by NFL standards in my eyes.

i hate tyreek hill as a person but he's far more than just fast, and kelce is far more than just "good"
he had sammy watkins also to throw too and then the rest of their WR corps was full of speed with Hardman and Robinson (only really showed up against us)

he's also got andy reid calling the plays for him with eric bieniemy there too

hardly below average - it's not bucs level good but there's a reason that teams have been copying their roster-building ideas on offence by adding speed to their team (including the ravens trying to put a track-team around lamar)

 

[rossihunter2]

1. If you're taking credit for two points, sure. I don't think there's any questions that Andy Reid is an elite offensive mind and can usually make any QB look good. That, to me, is a completely separate concept from "Chiefs have elite weapons".2
2. If we're talking about weapons, we're really just talking about Hill and Kelce, because Hardman and Watkins never played with Alex Smith, and neither was really impressive at all last season or even the season before in Watkins case.

I think if your argument is how they compare to the Ravens "weapons", which are probably among the worst in the league, sure, that's obvious.

I think if health isn't a factor, and based on 2019 and prior data, I would have taken these teams in terms of "weapons" over KC:
Houston (I don't think this one is particularly close)
Tampa (duh)
Minnesota
Atlanta

I would also probably have taken the Chargers overall group as better as well.

I think if Pat Mahomes was the QB of any of those five teams, and especially if he had Andy Reid (though maybe not a requirement), I think he'd be shattering records with those teams.

sammy watkins as the number 2 receiver on that team was averaging 50 yds/game in the regular season (skewed slightly by the crazy game he had in week 1) but also went off for nearly 300 yds in 3 games in the playoffs...

the reason the chiefs are loaded weapons-wise is because they've created a roster where they always have 1 more guy than you can deal with in terms of explosion - if hill doesnt get you kelce will, if neither of those 2 get you watkins will, and if you somehow manage to contain all 3 it's likely that either the RB went off or Hardman broke off a big one

 

[Deebo813]

i hate tyreek hill as a person but he's far more than just fast, and kelce is far more than just "good"
he had sammy watkins also to throw too and then the rest of their WR corps was full of speed with Hardman and Robinson (only really showed up against us)

he's also got andy reid calling the plays for him with eric bieniemy there too

hardly below average - it's not bucs level good but there's a reason that teams have been copying their roster-building ideas on offence by adding speed to their team (including the ravens trying to put a track-team around lamar)

Tbh, teams have been trying to go with the speed thing for years. They just cant find the right players.raiders had the fastest team ever assembled by miles literally but the players werent simply good enough.

 

[Deebo813]

Seems we’re downplaying them because they aren’t all #1 prototype wrs. Yes they’re speed guys, but mahomes is a guy who uses that, no qb floats them to open spots deep downfield for trackstar receivers to run under and field it like a punt as often as mahomes does, it’s not even close. You can’t say “these guys wouldn’t do the same on other teams” and make that a viable way to downplay them, you need to see what they do to make mahomes life easier as well, and when he knows he can just drop 15 yards deep and fling it 60 and hill/hardman is gonna win the foot race to the ball, then you can’t really knock those guys, they are making plays for mahomes when he is laying the ball out there.

I could be wrong but i dnt even remember hardman in playoffs. Was he injured? Im only down playing them because they really arent good enough to be considered “ best weapons” in nfl. It reminds me BB offenses. He always had like two really good guys, but the rest benefit off his play calling and those other guys getting doubled.

 

[Deebo813]

sammy watkins as the number 2 receiver on that team was averaging 50 yds/game in the regular season (skewed slightly by the crazy game he had in week 1) but also went off for nearly 300 yds in 3 games in the playoffs...

the reason the chiefs are loaded weapons-wise is because they've created a roster where they always have 1 more guy than you can deal with in terms of explosion - if hill doesnt get you kelce will, if neither of those 2 get you watkins will, and if you somehow manage to contain all 3 it's likely that either the RB went off or Hardman broke off a big one

So basically andy reid?

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I could be wrong but i dnt even remember hardman in playoffs. Was he injured? Im only down playing them because they really arent good enough to be considered “ best weapons” in nfl. It reminds me BB offenses. He always had like two really good guys, but the rest benefit off his play calling and those other guys getting doubled.

Well you’re talking about the 3rd/4th/5th options in the offense, how good do the rotational players need to be for you to consider them a strong group?

here’s what we can do, name the teams you think have the best skill groups, combined regardless of positions, if you think Sammy Watkins and mecole hardman and Damien Williams are worse than your teams 3rd, 4th, and 5th options, then place them above the chiefs, there is going to be a list, but it won’t be a long one.

Vikings - cook and thielen 1/2, Kyle Rudolph > the chiefs guys

saints - AK and Thomas 1/2, Jared cook > and that’s debatable

Bucs - evans, Godwin, Howard, brate, no debate

browns - odb, Landry, chubb, no debate

Of the first 2, that’s only the third man better than the chiefs third man, it’s not accounting for the 4th and 5th options. Other than that short list, what teams can you even have in the conversation? And only what they’ve all done so far since we’re talking about what mahomes has done so far, I’m not counting new additions that haven’t played on their teams yet

 

[Deebo813]

Well you’re talking about the 3rd/4th/5th options in the offense, how good do the rotational players need to be for you to consider them a strong group?

here’s what we can do, name the teams you think have the best skill groups, combined regardless of positions, if you think Sammy Watkins and mecole hardman and Damien Williams are worse than your teams 3rd, 4th, and 5th options, then place them above the chiefs, there is going to be a list, but it won’t be a long one.

Vikings - cook and thielen 1/2, Kyle Rudolph > the chiefs guys

saints - AK and Thomas 1/2, Jared cook > and that’s debatable

Bucs - evans, Godwin, Howard, brate, no debate

browns - odb, Landry, chubb, no debate

Of the first 2, that’s only the third man better than the chiefs third man, it’s not accounting for the 4th and 5th options. Other than that short list, what teams can you even have in the conversation? And only what they’ve all done so far since we’re talking about what mahomes has done so far, I’m not counting new additions that haven’t played on their teams yet

I dnt think saints have better weapons tbh, so id add in cowboys to replace them with cooper, galladay and zeke.

Other team i had in mind was rams with kupp, woods, gurley and cooks. Even though theyre not together, kc was still conisdered a better group than them.. i dnt think kc group is bad, i just dnt think theyre are the best and its a way for people to not give pat credit.

Edit: could even say a healthy bengals team in ross, boyd, green and mixon.

 

[Ellicottraven]

I think you should put A.I in there too. Not as far as winning cause he never won a ship but impact. What A.I brung to the NBA is what lamar brings to the NFL

No A.I didn't have everything else other than pure talent that goes along with it.. he wasn't a big believer in practice and had a work ethic that wasn't great. He wan't focused on BB all the time either with all his extra curricular. In reality the closest thing to Lamar when you factor in pure talent, desire for greatness, willingness to put in the work to realize that greatness, wanting to win championships and remarkable focus on the task at hand, the only comparison is Michael Jordan @Deebo813.

 

[Ellicottraven]

being number 1 voted by his peers was clearly on the cards after that jets game where multiple players lined up to get his jersey and have it signed - so many that lamar had spares brought on the field for them

that just does not happen to anyone else and tells you an awful lot about what even opposing players think of him

what ben watson said was cool - as an opposing player you're not supposed to support him but you can't help but want to see him do well and do amazing things

Just listen to what Melvin Gordon had to say in that video. That says it all. When supreme athletes are impressed enough to watch someone play instead of just the fans, you have the best player period. What do you think happened to the games that Michael Jordan played in? Exactly the same thing. I don't recall one player saying they stopped playing to see Mahomes play. He is a good QB with great weapons and an awesome coach. Lamar is a supremely talented QB that can do things nobody has done before. I'm tired of arguing Lamar's case with our own fans, man. It makes me weary. I'm not talking about you, but it is tiresome to see all these posts downplaying Lamar. Like I've said forever it seems like, just wait a few years and I'll be proven right. Everybody, their uncle and aunt will be on the Lamar bandwagon acting like they never doubted him ever!

 

[Deebo813]

No A.I didn't have everything else other than pure talent that goes along with it.. he wasn't a big believer in practice and had a work ethic that wasn't great. He wan't focused on BB all the time either with all his extra curricular. In reality the closest thing to Lamar when you factor in pure talent, desire for greatness, willingness to put in the work to realize that greatness, wanting to win championships and remarkable focus on the task at hand, the only comparison is Michael Jordan @Deebo813.

I was referring to A.I impact to the game. He showed his true authentic self and not some image they wanted him to portray. He didnt care what people thought of his braids, tats and how he acted/talked.. however,A.I def had a desire to be great and wanted to win. Idk if youre heavy on bball but A.I was one of the most competitve people during his era along with kobe.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Just listen to what Melvin Gordon had to say in that video. That says it all. When supreme athletes are impressed enough to watch someone play instead of just the fans, you have the best player period. What do you think happened to the games that Michael Jordan played in? Exactly the same thing. I don't recall one player saying they stopped playing to see Mahomes play. He is a good QB with great weapons and an awesome coach. Lamar is a supremely talented QB that can do things nobody has done before. I'm tired of arguing Lamar's case with our own fans, man. It makes me weary. I'm not talking about you, but it is tiresome to see all these posts downplaying Lamar. Like I've said forever it seems like, just wait a few years and I'll be proven right. Everybody, their uncle and aunt will be on the Lamar bandwagon acting like they never doubted him ever!

I’ll be honest... I love reading your posts about Lamar lmao

 

[rossihunter2]

I could be wrong but i dnt even remember hardman in playoffs. Was he injured? Im only down playing them because they really arent good enough to be considered “ best weapons” in nfl. It reminds me BB offenses. He always had like two really good guys, but the rest benefit off his play calling and those other guys getting doubled.

hardman did nothing in the playoffs but watkins went off and hill and kelce did their thing also
and in the superbowl damien williams had himself a day too