The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

[Ludy51]

In what other scenarios is kneeling offensive matters because if it is never offensive or disrepsectful except in this single isolated insident, we probably don't have an issue with kneeling.

If Kaep had said he wanted to kneel due to the great respect and reverence he felt toward the country, do you think the same level of backlash would apply?

I'm very curious to see if the same level of backlash has ever been had when Olympians wear the flag as a cape. Both acts are viewed as disrespectful, but I don't ever see any uproar with Olympians because it's a prideful event, so people are willing to overlook the fact that this violates written code because he's doing it to show pride. However, Kaep does it to raise awareness for issues he feels are occurring in the US and he's public enemy one. Total double standard

Also, who decided we should stand and why is it so important? Why do we care that an announcer said to stand for the National Anthem?

Well the underlying reasoning would be why. I mean do you really think flag code is what people are going by? The Olympian’s are doing it out of pride and respect for their country, and I’d wager a guess that flag code was written to avoid people mocking or disrespecting the flag as opposed to some sort of catch-all.

If you’re doing it to raise attention, then obviously it’s trying to be disrespectful, I mean how many headlines are made from people being respectful?

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Well the underlying reasoning would be why. I mean do you really think flag code is what people are going by? The Olympian’s are doing it out of pride and respect for their country, and I’d wager a guess that flag code was written to avoid people mocking or disrespecting the flag as opposed to some sort of catch-all.

If you’re doing it to raise attention, then obviously it’s trying to be disrespectful, I mean how many headlines are made from people being respectful?

Obviously it's disrespectful because kneeling is disrespectful in what other scenarios? And exercising a right to protesting, a First Amendment Right in our Constitution, is disrespectful how exactly?

No, I don't think Flag Code is what people are going by which makes this double standard worse.

Let me ask, again, these two questions.

If Kaep said he knelt because he felt such great respect and reverence toward the flag that he felt kneeling did the ultimate justice, would people be upset?

Why do we care that an announcer says to stand for the National Anthem?

 

[Ludy51]

Obviously it's disrespectful because kneeling is disrespectful in what other scenarios? And exercising a right to protesting, a First Amendment Right in our Constitution, is disrespectful how exactly?

No, I don't think Flag Code is what people are going by which makes this double standard worse.

Let me ask, again, these two questions.

If Kaep said he knelt because he felt such great respect and reverence toward the flag that he felt kneeling did the ultimate justice, would people be upset?

Why do we care that an announcer says to stand for the National Anthem?

We’re going in circles here, like I said respect is the factor, and if he thought and said that that was the best way to respect the flag then I don’t know if people would be as upset, but given that I don’t live in that parallel universe I can’t say for sure

And it could be an announcer or the military or whoever, but it was decided that that was the best most effective way to acknowledge others, so that’s what’s done, if he stood when we knelt it would be the same thing just in reverse.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

We’re going in circles here, like I said respect is the factor, and if he thought and said that that was the best way to respect the flag then I don’t know if people would be as upset, but given that I don’t live in that parallel universe I can’t say for sure

And it could be an announcer or the military or whoever, but it was decided that that was the best most effective way to acknowledge others, so that’s what’s done, if he stood when we knelt it would be the same thing just in reverse.

You're pleading the Fifth on this one because you know as well as I do that, no, people would not be nearly as upset. Would you have some people who are upset? Sure, but there are people who will get upset at literally everything.

So what does this mean? That people don't actually have an issue with the fact that he's kneeling; we have an issue with this idea that it's wrong to protest during the National Anthem, ignoring the fact that the right to protest is fundamentally protected by the Constitution. If our issue is that he's protesting and not respecting the Flag due to that, I'd have to vehemently disagree.

Why is Colin Kaepernick protesting? Because he doesn't feel that all people are represented fairly under the ideals and the values of America as it stands in present day. Okay, let's think about that- Colin Kaepernick is protesting for the fair and equal treatment of every single citizen in America... and this is disrespectful?

So, we've established that kneeling is not actually disrespectful in any other scenario ever and now we're arguing that asking for equal treatment of all people is somehow offensive? Huh... That doesn't make sense.

You do it because someone told you to and has always told you to. The same way that non-whites, for several hundred years, were told they were inferior. The same way that non-whites were told they would be slaves. The same way that non-whites would be told they would have no rights (as well as women).

And you know what happened? People decided this was unacceptable and went agains the grain in a peaceful way to bring about change. And it did.

My point being that just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's automatically right or the only way to do something. My bet is that you've never actually given much thought to why this is considered the right way- you've just always been told it's the way to act during the Anthem. That's why people are unable to actually tell me why kneeling, which is universally accepted as respectful in every single other scenario, is disrespectful here other than, "It's always been that way. I was told to do this."

 

[Oldfaithful]

@DeVito52 I see that the "who cares" approach only applies to a select few here. Smh

 

[29BmoreBird22]

@DeVito52 I see that the "who cares" approach only applies to a select few here. Smh

I have this belief, but I'd alter it another person, not just me.

 

[DeVito52]

@DeVito52 I see that the "who cares" approach only applies to a select few here. Smh

Seriously...move on with your lives people

 

[Ludy51]

@DeVito52 I see that the "who cares" approach only applies to a select few here. Smh

I’m not passionately connected to it really, just trying to argue what I think about the situation

 

[Ludy51]

You're pleading the Fifth on this one because you know as well as I do that, no, people would not be nearly as upset. Would you have some people who are upset? Sure, but there are people who will get upset at literally everything.

So what does this mean? That people don't actually have an issue with the fact that he's kneeling; we have an issue with this idea that it's wrong to protest during the National Anthem, ignoring the fact that the right to protest is fundamentally protected by the Constitution. If our issue is that he's protesting and not respecting the Flag due to that, I'd have to vehemently disagree.

Why is Colin Kaepernick protesting? Because he doesn't feel that all people are represented fairly under the ideals and the values of America as it stands in present day. Okay, let's think about that- Colin Kaepernick is protesting for the fair and equal treatment of every single citizen in America... and this is disrespectful?

So, we've established that kneeling is not actually disrespectful in any other scenario ever and now we're arguing that asking for equal treatment of all people is somehow offensive? Huh... That doesn't make sense.

You do it because someone told you to and has always told you to. The same way that non-whites, for several hundred years, were told they were inferior. The same way that non-whites were told they would be slaves. The same way that non-whites would be told they would have no rights (as well as women).

And you know what happened? People decided this was unacceptable and went agains the grain in a peaceful way to bring about change. And it did.

My point being that just because it's tradition doesn't mean it's automatically right or the only way to do something. My bet is that you've never actually given much thought to why this is considered the right way- you've just always been told it's the way to act during the Anthem. That's why people are unable to actually tell me why kneeling, which is universally accepted as respectful in every single other scenario, is disrespectful here other than, "It's always been that way. I was told to do this."

But we’re not talking about other situations we’re talking about THIS situation.

Now he can decide when and where to protest that’s fine, but it’s also idiotic to do during the anthem, because only a moron would think that that would lead to anything other than the debate we’re having now,

which leads to the next point of some people might disagree about how he feels the country is toward black people, or may say that there are ways he could actually do something as opposed to “starting a conversation”

You just seemed determined to bring in constant hypotheticals, “what would people think if this happened” or “how would people react to this” I just want to talk about what’s actually happening

 

[29BmoreBird22]

But we’re not talking about other situations we’re talking about THIS situation.

Now he can decide when and where to protest that’s fine, but it’s also idiotic to do during the anthem, because only a moron would think that that would lead to anything other than the debate we’re having now,

which leads to the next point of some people might disagree about how he feels the country is toward black people, or may say that there are ways he could actually do something as opposed to “starting a conversation”

You just seemed determined to bring in constant hypotheticals, “what would people think if this happened” or “how would people react to this” I just want to talk about what’s actually happening

I am talking about this situation. He is kneeling. Never in any other situation is kneeling disrespectful so why is it here? I outlined why it isn't. Again, you can't actually answer why other than someone told you it is.

But that's exactly what Kaep wanted. Do you know when he first sat? 2015. This has gone on for THREE years now! Kaep sitting, which is a really small gesture, honestly, has gone on for three years! Do you understand how much conversation and buzz he has started?

And that's okay if some people disagree or feel starting a conversation isn't the only way to do things (ignoring that he does plenty of charity work) because starting a conversation leads to open ended discussions on how to change and action, as it has for many people.

No, I'm not focused on hypotheticals. I'm trying to get you to make an argument for yourself and to make your own decisions. Why is this disrespectful other than you were told it is? Can you answer for yourself with your own thought out argument? So far I haven't seen anyone actually give me an answer as to why it is disrespectful. There is nothing hypothetical about this.

 

[Willbacker]

So I see you can't answer my questions, can you?

I have been answering your questions Bird and from what I can tell from your responses is you seem to think that protesting is the same as respect just cuz your on a knee. That's mindboggling to me.

Why didn't the Ravens take a knee during the London game. Why not show some "respect". The answer is obvious.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

I have been answering your questions Bird and from what I can tell from your responses is you seem to think that protesting is the same as respect just cuz your on a knee. That's mindboggling to me.

Why didn't the Ravens take a knee during the London game. Why not show some "respect". The answer is obvious.

You didn't answer all the questions I posed. I don't ask these questions just for the sake of asking. Go ahead and look at the questions I asked and see how many you answered. I'll give you a hint: you didn't answer any and there's four.

Not every player kneels, and that's okay, but Ravens players DID kneel in London, just so you're aware.

 

[Willbacker]

Okay, so again let me ask the question- in what other instance is the kneeling ever viewed as disrespectful?

Where are people getting up in arms and throwing protests about the Olympics? Where are people burning the gear that sponsor these athletes?

The National Anthem also several racist undertones and there's a reason we don't sing the first verse (the same way that Germany doesn't sing their entire National Anthem), but I digress.

But let me ask this- why is it disrespectful to take a knee? A knee is universally seen as a symbol of respect and submission, so why is it offensive? What about this is doing something to directly impact the lives of these people in a way that they should feel offended? Unless exercising our First Amendment Rights is now offensive and unAmerican.

OK. First off America is not God. There are protestors who have knelt in front of a moving object to stop it. Obstruction is not respectful and there have been instances of this happening

2nd question. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-ground/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.30c151cceae9. The Shaun White wearing of the flag. People were upset.

3rd question. Social media has really been cranked up only the last few years and youtube hasn't been around forever. When you talking about sponsers I guess you talking about Nike but yet you seem upset that they used their freedom of speech.

4th question. Why is it disrespectful. I've already said before I cant think of a country that doesn't stand for their national anthem. Why do you think the Ravens didn't kneel during the British national anthem? They didn't want to disrespect. You kneel in some countries you going to jail or perhaps be shot. Try it in the Phillipines. Hell maybe when they're kneeling they're disrespecting the aspects of kneeling lol.

5th question about impacting lives. I don't know. Ask the guys at Benghazi or served in the Vietnam War. Or the police. You think they like being protested thru the flag. It must be impactful to them since they turning off the tv and burning shoes.

On a sidenote. Kneeling has not stopped me from watching football. I do wish they would stop tho. Its gotten to the point of ridiculousness.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

OK. First off America is not God. There are protestors who have knelt in front of a moving object to stop it. Obstruction is not respectful and there have been instances of this happening

2nd question. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...-ground/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.30c151cceae9. The Shaun White wearing of the flag. People were upset.

3rd question. Social media has really been cranked up only the last few years and youtube hasn't been around forever. When you talking about sponsers I guess you talking about Nike but yet you seem upset that they used their freedom of speech.

4th question. Why is it disrespectful. I've already said before I cant think of a country that doesn't stand for their national anthem. Why do you think the Ravens didn't kneel during the British national anthem? They didn't want to disrespect. You kneel in some countries you going to jail or perhaps be shot. Try it in the Phillipines. Hell maybe when they're kneeling they're disrespecting the aspects of kneeling lol.

5th question about impacting lives. I don't know. Ask the guys at Benghazi or served in the Vietnam War. Or the police. You think they like being protested thru the flag. It must be impactful to them since they turning off the tv and burning shoes.

On a sidenote. Kneeling has not stopped me from watching football. I do wish they would stop tho. Its gotten to the point of ridiculousness.

Okay, so this is obstruction now? I get your point that there are corner cases of kneeling not being respectful, but people would have also been standing or sitting as well. My guess is they were kneeling simply because kneeling is less strain than sitting; nothing symbolic to it.

Okay, so people were protesting and burning the gear of those who sponsor White? Can you link me to that? I can't actually read the article because I use an ad blocker, but it appears people are upset that he let it drag, not that Olympians are wearing the flag.

I'm upset that who used their Freedom of Speech? People burning their Nike apparel? Nah, I think they're idiots. Nike doesn't care that you burn the stuff you already paid for. Plus, enough people are whining about Kaep doing things for charity (he is), so it's really hypocritical to burn this instead of donating it to charity if you feel that strongly enough against Nike.

Okay, so you haven't told me why it's disrespectful. You have said other countries don't, but you haven't told me why it's disrespectful. Give me a reason why this is disrespectful to kneel. Like I told Ludy, if Kaep had come out and said that he felt kneeling was the penultimate way to honor the country and the only way to express his reverence, people wouldn't care, would they?

Kaep is asking for the fair and equal treatment of all Americans. He's not protesting the military or the police (although, he is definitely protesting the shootings that go unpunished by the police). If you asked Kaep if he respects the military and is grateful for the police, I'm sure he'd say he is. The same way that Chris Long, Eric Reid, Michael Bennett, etc. would. I think that's the issue here- people think he's protesting America and the military and the police. No, he's simply asking that every single person is treated fairly within this country.

I don't care if they kneel during the Anthem or no and I can promise they will not stop because this has raged on for three years.

Also, I think this is exactly what Kaep wanted- for people like you and I to have a discussion. Neither of us is hostile or angry and I think that this is helpful and fruitful.

 

[Ludy51]

I am talking about this situation. He is kneeling. Never in any other situation is kneeling disrespectful so why is it here? I outlined why it isn't. Again, you can't actually answer why other than someone told you it is.

But that's exactly what Kaep wanted. Do you know when he first sat? 2015. This has gone on for THREE years now! Kaep sitting, which is a really small gesture, honestly, has gone on for three years! Do you understand how much conversation and buzz he has started?

And that's okay if some people disagree or feel starting a conversation isn't the only way to do things (ignoring that he does plenty of charity work) because starting a conversation leads to open ended discussions on how to change and action, as it has for many people.

No, I'm not focused on hypotheticals. I'm trying to get you to make an argument for yourself and to make your own decisions. Why is this disrespectful other than you were told it is? Can you answer for yourself with your own thought out argument? So far I haven't seen anyone actually give me an answer as to why it is disrespectful. There is nothing hypothetical about this.

Can you explain what the anthem has to do with what he’s protesting?

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Can you explain what the anthem has to do with what he’s protesting?

Kaep has already done that

 

[Ludy51]

Kaep has already done that

Great, can you give him the computer?

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Great, can you give him the computer?

I can point you in the direction of Google.

 

[Ludy51]

I can point you in the direction of Google.

Third door on the right?

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Third door on the right?

Then make a left turn and right ahead.