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The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

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Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
There's a difference between going after a leak and using incendiary rhetoric at rallies. It's a conversation in which I tend to side with the whistleblower (even when they're from the Obama administration!) but it's a different conversation.


I'm going with conspiracy until it's proven otherwise. In my line of work I come across a lot of comments about the financial markets (one of my work's clients is the biggest financial newspaper in the southern hemisphere) and a couple of years ago I came across a comment from one of Australia's best-performing fund managers who said something that'll always stick with me. It was about picking stocks but there are a lot of moments during the political news cycles that remind me of what he said. Anyway, he was asked about the internet and whether that makes things easier for people to get more informed (and make better stock picks etc) and he made the comment that there's a huge amount of information out there but nearly all of it is of such low quality that it's absolute garbage tier. And if I'm being blunt it's really the same thing with the way people get political news in particular - a lot of these sources are the equivalent of some bloke in a parking lot telling you he has this great property investment opportunity.

I know people really don't trust the media (and I've been harping on about why the main cable channels in particular are godawful, but that it's not for the reasons people think) and I don't expect I'm changing any minds, but if I could impart one new habit on people it's to verify what you're reading. If you hear something, try to find another site that's saying the same thing (a completely unrelated site obviously) and with as much transparency on its sources as possible. I know a lot of outlets do "a source told [XYZ]" to protect their sources' jobs but it's the difference between "sources told WalterFootball" or "sources told ***" and "sources told Adam Schefter".

And for the love of all that is good, if you still touch won't any mainstream organisation, I can't recommend enough trying to see if a wire outlet like Reuters or AP has reported something on it. They're wire outlets so you see their stories pop up on other news outlets' websites (they have a huge presence around the world so they cover stories for everyone across the spectrum where it would otherwise be too expensive for other outlets to send someone). They don't embellish their stories or add editorial spin either.

As for the "dirty shit behind the scenes", a lot of those people don't help their own cause but in my experience things are a lot simpler than they appear. My partner's a civil servant (so our pillow talk tends to be about politics and geopolitics) and I'll say that it takes a certain type of person to be attracted to running for office in the same way that a lot of pro athletes tend to have similar personalities and there's a lot of toxicity. But the "deep state" is just people doing their job of making the wheels of government turn every day. Hillary wasn't running a pedophile ring in some pizza place; political staff just work long hours and pizza's a workplace staple when you're burning the midnight oil. And there was no DNC conspiracy to railroad Bernie - just a crappy outdated primary system and he didn't do well in the south. More recently it turned out that the MAGAbomber wasn't a skilled DNC operative but a deranged bloke who didn't know where to draw the line. And you look at how the caravan has a lot of women taking their kids with them and I'd ask whether it's more likely that they're on the George Soros payroll or it's the more simpler alternative that there are lots of push factors in their crappy pre-migration lives that they want to make less crappy (that was Anthony Scaramucci who made that point recently btw), especially considering it's not the first such caravan and they've happened under the watch of several presidents.

Anyway, that's my $0.02. Be sceptical of everything you read or hear (even stuff you may trust from a place like Gab or Qanon or whatever - I've got my own thoughts on sources like that and I don't see myself changing anyone's mind but that two-stage source verification process is important) and try to find other sources saying the same thing. Don't sleep on the wire agencies if you want to see if something's verifiable. And there's a lot of stuff that goes on in the champagne rooms of the political "elites" (as much as I hate that word...) irrespective of where they sit on the spectrum but the truth is almost always way more boring than you think.

You ever see Trump do that to go after a leak. When you see news organazations constantly just put up only negative material personally I believe Trump has every right to say what he says. I mean when you're constantly called a Nazi and want to kill women and babies...……….

The pizza pedophile was just so absolutely ridiculous and I don't even know where that came from but it had to be from a real obscure newssource. There was conspiracy to railroad Bernie. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/damaging-emails-dnc-wikileaks-dump/story?id=40852448. Wikileaks bro. Remember them. Can you trust ABC? Its interesting how he's called the MAGAbomber. If newssources were fair how come housewhip Steve Scalise's shooter was not called the BERNIEshooter and then blame Bernie's rhetoric. Now my favorite the caravan you don't believe that the women with the children were put to the forefront by the agenda driven media? Really lmao. The major bulk of this caravan is working fighting aged men and by a longshot. Heck its even a strong possibility that these are unaccompanied minors that are being smuggled. I mean have you not noticed food trucks, medicine and gasp clean clothes being provided and you don't believe there is money behind all this.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Now my favorite the caravan you don't believe that the women with the children were put to the forefront by the agenda driven media? Really lmao. The major bulk of this caravan is working fighting aged men and by a longshot. Heck its even a strong possibility that these are unaccompanied minors that are being smuggled. I mean have you not noticed food trucks, medicine and gasp clean clothes being provided and you don't believe there is money behind all this.

but what's your actual issue with the "Caravan"?
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
also sorry to even insert myself here but i dont understand what's wrong with the caravan...
these are migrants who are attempting to gain asylum and havent even entered the US yet

these are potential refugees (who are legal migrants if accepted into the US) who are not illegal immigrants and if they were going to try and enter illegally are doing an awful job of it...

i would just like to point out also that Asylum-seekers are not illegal immigrants and any potential refugee has the legal right to make a claim at any border of the US (in this particular case) - any refusal to listen to asylum claims goes against the UN Refugee convention and the US refugee act and would be illegal

First off when you're seeking asylum you first have to do it at the embassy but if you are fleeing from violence lets say you are supposed to seek asylum in the first country of entry which would be Mexico. Mexico has given them the offer of asylum and they have refused. My opinion of this if you're waving a flag of a different country and try storming over our border I call that an invasion.

See the problem is we have the most stupidest system of catch and release with the promise that they will return for their hearing. They don't return and just disappear.
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
but what's your actual issue with the "Caravan"?

We don't know who is all in that caravan. Could be terrorists that just look Spanish. Spanish is pretty much the easiest language to learn. You could have potential for disease. Contraband. You just don't know who these people are.

Also a problem is we give these countries massive financial aid. For their people!!
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
First off when you're seeking asylum you first have to do it at the embassy but if you are fleeing from violence lets say you are supposed to seek asylum in the first country of entry which would be Mexico. Mexico has given them the offer of asylum and they have refused. My opinion of this if you're waving a flag of a different country and try storming over our border I call that an invasion.

See the problem is we have the most stupidest system of catch and release with the promise that they will return for their hearing. They don't return and just disappear.

that is false

individuals have a legal right to seek asylum whether at the US border, a port of entry or even from the interior of the country - this right is extended regardless of how an individual entered the country - the only proviso: the individual has to be at least on the US border to have the legal right to bring the claim

and with regards to mexico - almost 2000 did accept mexico's asylum offer
for some mexico still isnt a safe place which would be why they rejected mexico's asylum offer...
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
We don't know who is all in that caravan. Could be terrorists that just look Spanish. Spanish is pretty much the easiest language to learn. You could have potential for disease. Contraband. You just don't know who these people are.

Also a problem is we give these countries massive financial aid. For their people!!

but seeking asylum is not the same as being allowed into the country - they have to demonstrate evidence of credible fears based on various factors and if they cannot do that then their asylum claim is rejected and they have to migrate via other means

and if you're worried about terrorists then id just close off the US and not have any migrants or tourists at all and be done with it...
not sure ive come across that as a reasonable excuse for anything before but heyho...

and the disease excuse is demonstrably racist im afraid... you yourself posted above that there was clearly medicine etc. going with them so why do you think they are bringing diseases in?
 

Willbacker

Ravens Ring of Honor
but seeking asylum is not the same as being allowed into the country - they have to demonstrate evidence of credible fears based on various factors and if they cannot do that then their asylum claim is rejected and they have to migrate via other means

and if you're worried about terrorists then id just close off the US and not have any migrants or tourists at all and be done with it...
not sure ive come across that as a reasonable excuse for anything before but heyho...

and the disease excuse is demonstrably racist im afraid... you yourself posted above that there was clearly medicine etc. going with them so why do you think they are bringing diseases in?

Did you not read what I said about our laws. Catch and release.

Also why you saying what I said was racist?
 
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rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Did you not read what I said about our laws. Catch and release.

Also why you saying what I said was racist?

because talking about foreign ethnic peoples as carriers of disease is a common racially-motivated argument to try and justify the vilification of foreigners who look or speak differently

so either you were being racist (either on purpose or not on purpose doesnt really matter) or you were parroting statements from other people who were being racist...
 

JoeyFlex5

Hall of Famer
because talking about foreign ethnic peoples as carriers of disease is a common racially-motivated argument to try and justify the vilification of foreigners who look or speak differently

so either you were being racist (either on purpose or not on purpose doesnt really matter) or you were parroting statements from other people who were being racist...
Well that’s a reach. Come on man, you are race baiting by definition. That’s like being scared of the Ebola crisis from a few years ago and not being ok with mass immigration from an Ebola hot zone during a crisis. That’s a perfectly reasonable thing.

Now I understand Central American immigrants is a little different than an Ebola crisis, but flat out calling that racist is a reach and a really unnecessary accusation
 

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
This fucking thread. I was literally just accepted to go work for the US Senate a couple of days ago and will be doing so next semester.. And this thread makes me want to reconsider.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Well that’s a reach. Come on man, you are race baiting by definition. That’s like being scared of the Ebola crisis from a few years ago and not being ok with mass immigration from an Ebola hot zone during a crisis. That’s a perfectly reasonable thing.

Now I understand Central American immigrants is a little different than an Ebola crisis, but flat out calling that racist is a reach and a really unnecessary accusation

im calling it racist because its a traditional racist trope throughout the ages - to dehumanise others with claims of being disease-ridden etc.

it may not be intentionally racist but it's still got unavoidable racial undertones

at best he's not really considering the connotations of what he's saying
 
This fucking thread. I was literally just accepted to go work for the US Senate a couple of days ago and will be doing so next semester.. And this thread makes me want to reconsider.
I've learned to not express a political opinion ANYWHERE. Anything you say leaves you open to be demonized (even if the title of the thread is "Well Mannered"), so I just keep my opinions to myself.
 

Oldfaithful

Hall of Famer
I've learned to not express a political opinion ANYWHERE. Anything you say leaves you open to be demonized, so I just keep my opinions to myself.
Well FUCK YOU and your opinion that you want to keep opinions to yourself! That offends me...



Sarcasm is amazing
 

Inqui

Pro Bowler
You ever see Trump do that to go after a leak. When you see news organazations constantly just put up only negative material personally I believe Trump has every right to say what he says. I mean when you're constantly called a Nazi and want to kill women and babies...……….

The pizza pedophile was just so absolutely ridiculous and I don't even know where that came from but it had to be from a real obscure newssource. There was conspiracy to railroad Bernie. https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/damaging-emails-dnc-wikileaks-dump/story?id=40852448. Wikileaks bro. Remember them. Can you trust ABC? Its interesting how he's called the MAGAbomber. If newssources were fair how come housewhip Steve Scalise's shooter was not called the BERNIEshooter and then blame Bernie's rhetoric. Now my favorite the caravan you don't believe that the women with the children were put to the forefront by the agenda driven media? Really lmao. The major bulk of this caravan is working fighting aged men and by a longshot. Heck its even a strong possibility that these are unaccompanied minors that are being smuggled. I mean have you not noticed food trucks, medicine and gasp clean clothes being provided and you don't believe there is money behind all this.
Again I agree that the Obama administration overreached (in this case I believe in smaller, more transparent government so it's an area where I tend to agree with the right - or at least what the right pays lip service to when they're in opposition), but again that's not the same thing as using incendiary rhetoric at your rallies about people on your shitlist. It's a separate conversation.

*The Wikileaks stuff doesn't say much beyond many DNC figures not liking him - so I can agree depending on your definition of whether he was railroaded. I'd agree that people in the DNC old boys club didn't like him and that it played out in the nomination process, but again that just means the DNC has a crappy selection process (the Republicans' one is better but not a huge amount better) rather than a concerted effort from the top. The truth is usually simpler than the shady explanations may make out.
*Call him the Bernieshooter if you want. I don't care. The point I was making was that if I were to argue that it was a Republican operative in a false flag operation I'd be wrong when he was clearly an unhinged person acting on his own accord, as was this MAGAbomber bloke. The truth is usually simpler than the shady explanations may make out.
*I'll leave @rossihunter2 to argue the caravan stuff. But every time someone brings up left-wing politics the right likes to talk about how crap things are in central America, so is it a stretch to think that they might want to leave those countries? Or that international humanitarian organisations are providing some kind of assistance (given the UN's already involved and that this has happened before)? If you think left-wing figures giving them a nudge (and giving the right a talking point) is the simplest explanation that makes the most sense we'll have to agree to disagree.

*The "real obscure newssource" is the issue I have. A crazy person read a crazy theory on the internet and people died as a result. Conspiracy theories aren't a new thing (9/11, the moon landing, vaccinations, etc) but they're becoming more prominent and bad information spreads faster than good. That's why I went on my "everyone needs to double-check their sources" soliloquy and why I tried to phrase it in a non-partisan way and provide what I genuinely hope was useful pointers for people. And that if people only take one thing I say to heart, that it'd be to be careful with where you get your information and to try to find other sources that say the same stuff where applicable. If one person on the internet starts applying more of a filter to what they read then I can die happy. Everyone else can ignore the rest of what I say as the opinion of some flog on the internet.
 
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Inqui

Pro Bowler
Well FUCK YOU and your opinion that you want to keep opinions to yourself! That offends me...



Sarcasm is amazing
There's another forum I'm on where people use a green font to denote sarcasm. It's actually not a bad idea.

(though whether this post should be in green font is the big question...)
 

Ludy51

Hall of Famer
but seeking asylum is not the same as being allowed into the country - they have to demonstrate evidence of credible fears based on various factors and if they cannot do that then their asylum claim is rejected and they have to migrate via other means

and if you're worried about terrorists then id just close off the US and not have any migrants or tourists at all and be done with it...
not sure ive come across that as a reasonable excuse for anything before but heyho...

and the disease excuse is demonstrably racist im afraid... you yourself posted above that there was clearly medicine etc. going with them so why do you think they are bringing diseases in?
If they really wanted asylum they could've taken it when it was offered by Mexico, now I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure you have to accept the first asylum offer given, or you have to stop in the first country that can offer it, they are doing neither.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
If they really wanted asylum they could've taken it when it was offered by Mexico, now I could be wrong but i'm pretty sure you have to accept the first asylum offer given, or you have to stop in the first country that can offer it, they are doing neither.

nearly half of the "caravan" did accept asylum offers in mexico once they were offered
others have said they will consider the offer in mexico city
others have turned around
many do not feel safe in mexico still (potentially the nature of their asylum claim makes mexico not a safe country for them)

partly this is because they have been offered temporary asylum on a very fragile basis and quite rightly fear that agreeing to this straight away leaves them liable to be deported back to the countries they are fleeing

id also like to point out that the last massive "caravan" ended up with only 200 people seeking asylum in the USA
id also like to point out that this "caravan" is still months away from the US border if it ever makes it there
id also like to point out that those military personnel sent to the US border will be doing nothing but sweating and wasting government money waiting for a caravan that wont arrive for a long time
 
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