The Well-Mannered Politics Thread

[Somerset Ravens]

In North Dakota, thousands of Native American voters have been disenfranchised by having to provide proof of address (most native americans dont have traditional residential addresses) in a new voter ID law in that state

In Georgia where Brian Kemp (secretary of state) has purged thousands of voters (in mostly minority-high urban areas) including putting more than 50000 registrations on hold - it is crazy that that it is legal for brian kemp to be overseeing the election in georgia but also running as a candidate (that's a conflict of interest if i ever saw one) and it is baring out even more on election day - polling stations in low-income and high black population areas are being purposefully opened late, given faulty voting machines, supplied voting machines without power units, supplied fewer voting machines than other areas (in south west atlanta the polling station was only given 3 whole machines), legitimate voters being forced to fill in provisional ballots in stead and in some cases the polling station is being moved completely on election morning - that's clearly a conscious effort to deter voting from a particular group (and is in fact probably illegal) given that the person responsible for ensuring none of those things happen just happens to be on the ballot

great example in georgia:


In Colorado, (supposedly the safest state for election security) hundreds of thousands have been purged from the electoral rolls

In Detroit, polling stations in high black population areas like martin luther king jr high school, voting machines have been left locked up with no on site ability to unlock them, in other polling stations machines have been provided with faulty scanners again to predominantly black precincts

In Arizona, polling stations have been opened late for no apparent reason

In Kansas and Georgia, there is misinformation being spread about the ID needed to vote and turning voters away despite the voter id laws in those areas having been struck down in court and in Kansas particularly polling sites have been moved

There are additional reports all across the US of polling station locations having been moved last minute without notification and "random" power outages at voting sites

In Maryland, count public transport was cancelled but under pressure has reintroduced it

In Florida, mail-ballots were not sent out to significant numbers of people (mostly students in other states) despite repeated requests, voters are being denied entry to their polling stations because they are in gated communities

In Texas and PA, machines aren't working and no paper ballots (or nowhere near enough) were provided as replacement and specifically in texas there have been reports of "calibration issues" whereby the machine picks the wrong candidate

In PA there are also reports of election officials asking for ID despite the fact that the voter registration card explicitly states that it is itself a form of ID

Reports are that there are "broken" machines all over the tri-state area and particularly Brooklyn too

these are just some of the reports coming out already - it's obviously worst in Georgia (and most blatant - and obviously corrupt) but it's happening all over your country

it should be easy to vote and yet various states are making it harder for certain demographics to vote - we live in a world where i can communicate securely with almost anyone in the world but voting machines are unsecured, slow, faulty and in difficult to reach locations - you should be able to vote on your phone tbh but you absolutely should be able to at least use paper voting in stead of machine voting

in the uk ive voted in different areas and different polling stations in all sorts of different votes and none of them have taken more than 5 minutes no matter how busy it was

I appreciate you getting back to me. I just got back from taking my Mom to vote so my reply is tardy.

What I read about North Dakota it seems that many Indians use P.O. Boxes for their mailing address and the state does not accept a P.O. Box as proof of residence. I know Maryland does the same thing. When my wife and I moved back to Maryland we had to prove our residency ( we used county real estate records ). This is a measure to prevent voter fraud.
Even though many tribal members do not know their street address, they do have them. They can get it from the 911 service or county records. Once they know their address they can get a tribal I.D. which will enable them to vote.

Your Georgia example is very sad. I did some reading on this and did not find any reason for purging these records. I want to see if these purges were legit or not. Federal Law requires states to remove ineligible voters, but not within 90 days of an election. The thing to know before judging is how many of the removed voters were truly eligible.

I did look for info on polls opening late and found nothing. I did see where many areas are keeping there polls open late.

I will keep looking, thanks again for your response.

 

[rossihunter2]

I appreciate you getting back to me. I just got back from taking my Mom to vote so my reply is tardy.

What I read about North Dakota it seems that many Indians use P.O. Boxes for their mailing address and the state does not accept a P.O. Box as proof of residence. I know Maryland does the same thing. When my wife and I moved back to Maryland we had to prove our residency ( we used county real estate records ). This is a measure to prevent voter fraud.
Even though many tribal members do not know their street address, they do have them. They can get it from the 911 service or county records. Once they know their address they can get a tribal I.D. which will enable them to vote.

Your Georgia example is very sad. I did some reading on this and did not find any reason for purging these records. I want to see if these purges were legit or not. Federal Law requires states to remove ineligible voters, but not within 90 days of an election. The thing to know before judging is how many of the removed voters were truly eligible.

I did look for info on polls opening late and found nothing. I did see where many areas are keeping there polls open late.

I will keep looking, thanks again for your response.

the issue in north dakota is not the law itself but that there were laws in place that stopped voter fraud but didnt disenfranchise native americans, then suddenly this new voter id law comes in with no chance for native americans to adjust in order to get "valid" ID in time even if the rules were not clearly there to target that population - there were solutions to the problem had the law been allowed to proceed but not within the timeframe given to those affected - and it really is a serious issue in that state - the majority was around 2000 in the last election but around 4500 voters were affected by the new voting rules with little time to react

it makes more sense in maryland but again creates a barrier to vote

voter fraud is a seriously overblown idea - it doesnt happen much and when it does happen its incredibly easy to notice, discount and punish
it's a bad thing but the threat of voter fraud penalties is enough to dissuade many people (and unfortunately those penalties are dissuading eligible voters from voting just in case)

with regards to Georgia - what's happening there im pretty sure would be illegal in most countries (and may well be in the US) but im not sure any punishment will come forthwith - it's a crazy situation - it sounds like a lot of the purged voters were eligible (and removed for reasons that were struck down by the courts)

if you are interested in the anecdotes about polling stations opening late etc. have a gander at this hashtag on twitter:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/VoterSuppression?src=hash

have a scroll through - i will warn you it's deeply partisan and political (mostly because these measures are disproportionately affecting certain voters much more than others) if that's something you wish to avoid although i would recommend having a look through the top posts - a lot of it is people coming with solutions to those who have reported voting problems etc. but it also has anecdotes and pictures and videos of various polling station problems across the US today

but in that hashtag you will find anecdotes about polling stations opening late, polling stations being moved last minute with no notice, broken voting machines, low numbers of voting machines being sent to high population polling stations, low numbers of paper ballots (albeit some of this seems to be an higher than expected voter turnout - but wouldnt be a problem in the first place if the machines actually worked) among many other problems that you can peruse

 

[rossihunter2]

in fact as an update - it looks like they just "ran out" of ballots in standing rock too
it may be coincidence but a lot of places where voters were purged or disenfranchised (and those new laws/purges were struck down in courts) are the places where machines are not working/paper ballots are running out...

it may well not be active voter suppression and in stead could be coincidence/poor preparation/high voter turnout but its a problem even if it is one of those latter suggestions

 

[rossihunter2]

excuse the language on this tweet if this offends but im sorry this is crazy

https://twitter.com/The_UnSilent_/status/1059962688338583554

EDIT:
that's from Indiana - there are reports that its been happening all over indiana and texas

 

[Somerset Ravens]

the issue in north dakota is not the law itself but that there were laws in place that stopped voter fraud but didnt disenfranchise native americans, then suddenly this new voter id law comes in with no chance for native americans to adjust in order to get "valid" ID in time even if the rules were not clearly there to target that population - there were solutions to the problem had the law been allowed to proceed but not within the timeframe given to those affected - and it really is a serious issue in that state - the majority was around 2000 in the last election but around 4500 voters were affected by the new voting rules with little time to react

it makes more sense in maryland but again creates a barrier to vote

voter fraud is a seriously overblown idea - it doesnt happen much and when it does happen its incredibly easy to notice, discount and punish
it's a bad thing but the threat of voter fraud penalties is enough to dissuade many people (and unfortunately those penalties are dissuading eligible voters from voting just in case)

with regards to Georgia - what's happening there im pretty sure would be illegal in most countries (and may well be in the US) but im not sure any punishment will come forthwith - it's a crazy situation - it sounds like a lot of the purged voters were eligible (and removed for reasons that were struck down by the courts)

if you are interested in the anecdotes about polling stations opening late etc. have a gander at this hashtag on twitter:
https://twitter.com/hashtag/VoterSuppression?src=hash

have a scroll through - i will warn you it's deeply partisan and political (mostly because these measures are disproportionately affecting certain voters much more than others) if that's something you wish to avoid although i would recommend having a look through the top posts - a lot of it is people coming with solutions to those who have reported voting problems etc. but it also has anecdotes and pictures and videos of various polling station problems across the US today

but in that hashtag you will find anecdotes about polling stations opening late, polling stations being moved last minute with no notice, broken voting machines, low numbers of voting machines being sent to high population polling stations, low numbers of paper ballots (albeit some of this seems to be an higher than expected voter turnout - but wouldnt be a problem in the first place if the machines actually worked) among many other problems that you can peruse

Do you know if in the past in North Dakota if a voter ID could be obtained using a P.O. Box? Were those tribal members who cannot vote registered in the past? If they could in the past I do see an issue. I do find it hard to believe you would not know your address in case you ever need 911 service. Providing a physical address to prevent voter fraud is such a little thing.

I hope there is an investigation in Georgia. The details of who was purged is needed to determine what really happened.

I appreciate you sending your Twitter sources. Honestly I cannot take anything political on Twitter seriously. Trump ruined that for me.

 

[rossihunter2]

Do you know if in the past in North Dakota if a voter ID could be obtained using a P.O. Box? Were those tribal members who cannot vote registered in the past? If they could in the past I do see an issue. I do find it hard to believe you would not know your address in case you ever need 911 service. Providing a physical address to prevent voter fraud is such a little thing.

I hope there is an investigation in Georgia. The details of who was purged is needed to determine what really happened.

I appreciate you sending your Twitter sources. Honestly I cannot take anything political on Twitter seriously. Trump ruined that for me.

those members were able to vote in the past elections (were a crucial reason why the current senator is senator) - the law was changed so that a residential address was required to register - but the native americans in north dakota in those areas typically live on reservations so only have po box addresses in stead

you say its a little thing but why is a po box not enough evidence to prove your locality?

there needs to be an investigation in georgia no matter what - even if the purges are somehow justifiable, the fact that Kemp didnt recuse himself from overseeing the election despite being on the ballot and the fact that there are clear voter suppression tactics in effect working against specific populations should be worth a very serious investigation too

 

[Somerset Ravens]

those members were able to vote in the past elections (were a crucial reason why the current senator is senator) - the law was changed so that a residential address was required to register - but the native americans in north dakota in those areas typically live on reservations so only have po box addresses in stead

you say its a little thing but why is a po box not enough evidence to prove your locality?

there needs to be an investigation in georgia no matter what - even if the purges are somehow justifiable, the fact that Kemp didnt recuse himself from overseeing the election despite being on the ballot and the fact that there are clear voter suppression tactics in effect working against specific populations should be worth a very serious investigation too

A P.O. Box does not prove residency plain and simple. Why wouldn't you offer your physical address to be able to vote?

 

[rossihunter2]

A P.O. Box does not prove residency plain and simple. Why wouldn't you offer your physical address to be able to vote?

because they didnt have them...
and tbh having a residential address doesnt prove residency either...

 

[Somerset Ravens]

because they didnt have them...
and tbh having a residential address doesnt prove residency either...

They do have them, the 911 service has them as does the county records.

A physical residence does prove residency. It did for me in Maryland.

Can you provide a reason why you would not give your physical address?

 

[rossihunter2]

They do have them, the 911 service has them as does the county records.

A physical residence does prove residency. It did for me in Maryland.

Can you provide a reason why you would not give your physical address?

but why is it necessary to prove their residency to a particular building/address when they live on a reservation within the area they are supposed to be from?

and how does a physical residence prove residency - you dont have to be living there...

my main point though is not that these restrictions need to be taken away but that if they were good enough already why should more voter id laws be placed up them - with little time to adhere to the new laws too...

 

[Inqui]

but why is it necessary to prove their residency to a particular building/address when they live on a reservation within the area they are supposed to be from?

and how does a physical residence prove residency - you dont have to be living there...

my main point though is not that these restrictions need to be taken away but that if they were good enough already why should more voter id laws be placed up them - with little time to adhere to the new laws too...

I'm not opposed to the concept of voter ID but if you're going to impose restrictions like that the flipside is that you have to make it easier to get an ID in the first place. Over here everyone gets a card with a number and that works out fine. But any attempt to toughen voter ID laws without also making voter ID easier to get feels like a bit of a Trojan horse (similar to when gun rights advocates talk about mental health after a shooting without providing actual mental health solutions). And then like you said there's the gerrymandering and the lack of operational polling stations and so on, which there's not much of an excuse for tbh.

In the meantime, a political party over here is going to use a blockchain system to vote on its leadership caucus. In the not-so-distant future that'll be a staple for national elections and solve a lot of problems for any government not stuck in the (early) 20th century.

 

[rossihunter2]

I'm not opposed to the concept of voter ID but if you're going to impose restrictions like that the flipside is that you have to make it easier to get an ID in the first place. Over here everyone gets a card with a number and that works out fine. But any attempt to toughen voter ID laws without also making voter ID easier to get feels like a bit of a Trojan horse (similar to when gun rights advocates talk about mental health after a shooting without providing actual mental health solutions). And then like you said there's the gerrymandering and the lack of operational polling stations and so on, which there's not much of an excuse for tbh.

In the meantime, a political party over here is going to use a blockchain system to vote on its leadership caucus. In the not-so-distant future that'll be a staple for national elections and solve a lot of problems for any government not stuck in the (early) 20th century.

it will improve for any government that is interested in making voting easier to accomplish - there are certain political systems and ideologies that are very much not interested in making voting easier for everyone

the modernisation of voter systems is overdue but it requires a ruling party or group of leaders in each individual country to want to increase access and ease of voting

 

[Somerset Ravens]

but why is it necessary to prove their residency to a particular building/address when they live on a reservation within the area they are supposed to be from?

and how does a physical residence prove residency - you dont have to be living there...

my main point though is not that these restrictions need to be taken away but that if they were good enough already why should more voter id laws be placed up them - with little time to adhere to the new laws too...

If the timing was too short I see an issue. Why in the world would someone not give their physical address?

 

[rossihunter2]

If the timing was too short I see an issue. Why in the world would someone not give their physical address?

because they never had to before

 

[Somerset Ravens]

because they never had to before

Seriously you need to do better than that. It is a sound policy.

 

[rossihunter2]

Seriously you need to do better than that. It is a sound policy.

but you've been saying its a problem if timing is an issue - and im telling you that timing absolutely is an issue - they had never had to register an address before to be able to vote and now they had very little time to satisfy the conditions to be able to register to vote in the election...

 

[Somerset Ravens]

but you've been saying its a problem if timing is an issue - and im telling you that timing absolutely is an issue - they had never had to register an address before to be able to vote and now they had very little time to satisfy the conditions to be able to register to vote in the election...

How long ago was this new rule put in place? Going forward it is a very solid policy.

I am going to ask a question and you need not answer if you don't want. If this rule was put in place for you a week before the election, would you have done what it takes to eligible to vote?

 

[rossihunter2]

How long ago was this new rule put in place? Going forward it is a very solid policy.

I am going to ask a question and you need not answer if you don't want. If this rule was put in place for you a week before the election, would you have done what it takes to eligible to vote?

i think it was within the last few months (unsure though)

but my question is this - these native american voters already had their own ID system

Native Americans can use their ids to travel out of US, open bank accounts, drive, etc. but the new rule made those existing IDs invalid for voting (and voting only)

To answer your question - I would, but I am able to do it and not likely to be deterred by extra voting regulations because i dont have a cultural history of being disenfranchised

and its a moot point for the moment anyway - their votes werent registered, they werent able to vote and the state has flipped off the back of this rule

 

[JO_75]

Democrats are on their way to another loss as it seems the Republicans are going to keep the Senate and in the process gained some seats as well. They got a huge flip from Indiana where Mike Braun beat Joe Donnelly. Democrats look like they may get the house but as we all know getting Congress was the big slice of pie they wanted most.

 

[Grim]

I don’t speak on this much, and this will probably be one of the only times I’ll post in this thread, but I really hate political parties. They’re not consistently representative of the values on which they claim they are based. I just feel people should actually research the person not the party when voting. The number of people who said they voted straight red or blue because of our President seems entirely asinine and grossly ignorant in voting a person into public office to act on your behalf. On the subject of political parties and their impact on our country, I couldn’t agree more with George Washington in his quote on political parties.