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The Defence, The Offence and The Passing Game

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
we did always have the proviso that if we had to take a 1st round LB that it would be Queen please - and partly i was under the assumption that if we picked a 1st round LB we wouldn't be able to get guys like Madubuike and Harrison and Dobbins as well lol
I was thinking similarly. One of the Receivers I wanted if we didn't pick a top WR in the 1st round was Duvernay and I wanted Harrison as well as Madubuike. I didn't expect us to take Dobbins due to not thinking we would take a 2nd round RB. Glad we did though.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I was frustrated with Lamar after the Chief’s game but as I’ve had a couple weeks to think about it I realized (in my opinion) I was being pretty stupid. He’s the reigning MVP for god’s sake.

We’re talking about the NFL, where guys are paid millions of dollars to figure each other out. What makes Lamar special has always been his legs, not his arm. There was, and is, the potential for his arm to become his primary asset but his passing has never been what made him a truly great quarterback. The fact that he is such a good runner that can also really sling the ball is the X Factor. He’s terrible outside the numbers and average at going through progressions. That’s just a fact. If he throws the ball 40 times in a game, it’s going to be ugly more often than not. It probably won’t be like that forever (though it might), but for now it is.

With that in mind, all I’m seeing is a 23 year old with less than 2 seasons under his belt as a starter that is having growing pains as a passer. Combine that with not using his legs as much or as well as he did in his first and second years (for a variety of reasons), and you get what we’re seeing now...and we’re still blowing teams out on a regular basis.

I feel like, as a fan base, we’re so defensive about Lamar that we’re setting the expectations way too high and robbing ourselves of enjoying our VERY, VERY good football team.

It’s sad.
No.

I'm not setting expectations too high. He is. When you win MVP, what should the expectation be? Just tell me what it should be.

The reality is this... his legs are what makes him special. His legs, also, will decline, every single season, until he's in his 30s, and his legs are no longer special in any way. There is no version of Lamar Jackson where he's out running everybody when he's in his 30s. That is the expectation that every single fan should have.

And knowing that, it means you don't get to wait until your 30s to learn how to play QB from the pocket. To learn precision accuracy, to learn how to read defenses and progressions, etc. If he learns that, he'll play for 15 more years. If he doesn't, he'll play for about 6-8 more years. I'm fine with either, but the reasonable expectations is that one skill sets improves while another declines. That's how good QBs become great QBs.

Its early in his career, but the latter portion, in my eyes, is not developing at a level that I think it should, nor do I think anybody can sell the idea that its developing the way the Ravens want it to. Doesn't mean it won't, and it doesn't mean it can't. It means, so far, it hasn't.

You are seeing what teams are doing. Due to a combination of play calling, ineffective execution, and opposing opposition, Lamar is not running nearly as much, not running nearly as effectively, and the Ravens as a team aren't humming as an offense like we did last season. You either throw up your hands and say "well that's who we are" and roll over and die, or you adapt. And adaptation means players grow, get better, and develop skills in other areas.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
I was frustrated with Lamar after the Chief’s game but as I’ve had a couple weeks to think about it I realized (in my opinion) I was being pretty stupid. He’s the reigning MVP for god’s sake.

We’re talking about the NFL, where guys are paid millions of dollars to figure each other out. What makes Lamar special has always been his legs, not his arm. There was, and is, the potential for his arm to become his primary asset but his passing has never been what made him a truly great quarterback. The fact that he is such a good runner that can also really sling the ball is the X Factor. He’s terrible outside the numbers and average at going through progressions. That’s just a fact. If he throws the ball 40 times in a game, it’s going to be ugly more often than not. It probably won’t be like that forever (though it might), but for now it is.

With that in mind, all I’m seeing is a 23 year old with less than 2 seasons under his belt as a starter that is having growing pains as a passer. Combine that with not using his legs as much or as well as he did in his first and second years (for a variety of reasons), and you get what we’re seeing now...and we’re still blowing teams out on a regular basis.

I feel like, as a fan base, we’re so defensive about Lamar that we’re setting the expectations way too high and robbing ourselves of enjoying our VERY, VERY good football team.

It’s sad.
Also, in regards to blowing teams out... I just don't care. The expectation when you play Washington or Cincinnati is that you blow them out. They're bad football teams who will struggle to win 4-5 games all year long. There's a massive talent gap between the two of us, and so blowing them out is basically like achieving the bare minimum. The only thing I give a Lamar-led team credit for is they aren't doing what many of the Joe Flacco teams did, which is play to precisely the level of competition (i.e. crap the bed against bad teams).

Blowing out Cincinnati at home is a no-win situation. If you do it, you're supposed to do it. If you don't, the alarm bells go off. Its a barometer for absolutely nothing.

We have one really good win against Cleveland, and we're all still not sure how great that is. We can probably sleep walk our way to at least 8-9 wins (likely more), so that'll get you a playoff spot in the AFC regardless.

Got a five game stretch in November that will tell us where we stack up. We already got blown out by KC. We play PIT twice, Colts, Patriots and Titans. Three of those teams will likely be playoff teams. How we fare in that stretch will tell us. Those are probably 3 of the top 5 teams in the AFC.
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
Ok hear me out. Lamar had in my opinion his worst game as a Raven this week. Not only as a passers but literally as a runner. That has to be his lowest total rushing in his career right? So just awful game all around. Let's dive a little deeper. As far as I recall there was not a single designed run for Lamar called. That's weird. That's gotta be the first time in his career right? So on a week where he was limited by a knee injury and then ended up being sick, he comes in to have his worst game ever in which there are no designed runs and he didn't even look to scramble more than I believe twice the whole game. Completely independent of Roman's play calling, that's not the Lamar Jackson we know. I'm not even talking about execution. I mean Lamar Jackson does not just not scramble. To me the circumstances when all put together point to something. I'm not sure what it is but something was clearly wrong yesterday.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Ok hear me out. Lamar had in my opinion his worst game as a Raven this week. Not only as a passers but literally as a runner. That has to be his lowest total rushing in his career right? So just awful game all around. Let's dive a little deeper. As far as I recall there was not a single designed run for Lamar called. That's weird. That's gotta be the first time in his career right? So on a week where he was limited by a knee injury and then ended up being sick, he comes in to have his worst game ever in which there are no designed runs and he didn't even look to scramble more than I believe twice the whole game. Completely independent of Roman's play calling, that's not the Lamar Jackson we know. I'm not even talking about execution. I mean Lamar Jackson does not just not scramble. To me the circumstances when all put together point to something. I'm not sure what it is but something was clearly wrong yesterday.
In fairness, very few of Lamar's runs are "designed QB runs". You usually only see those on like QB runs in short yardage.
Most of Lamar's runs are on read/run options, where he has the option to hand off or keep himself. I was actually a little happy to see him hand the ball off more in those spots, because I thought early in the season his reads on those players were sometimes wrong, and he was keeping when he should have been handing off.

But I do agree yesterday had a bit more of a "traditional offense" look to it.
 

cdp

Ravens Ring of Honor
What do you guys think of Hollywood - esp. when you compare him to the rest of his draft class?
 

UPennChem

Hall of Famer
In fairness, very few of Lamar's runs are "designed QB runs". You usually only see those on like QB runs in short yardage.
Most of Lamar's runs are on read/run options, where he has the option to hand off or keep himself. I was actually a little happy to see him hand the ball off more in those spots, because I thought early in the season his reads on those players were sometimes wrong, and he was keeping when he should have been handing off.

But I do agree yesterday had a bit more of a "traditional offense" look to it.

Totally agree here, but there are definitely those runs GRo calls where as soon as the snap is caught Lamar just rolls out to one side running. And then he also occasionally calls a QB draw or at least it looks liek it when Lamar acts quickly on the opening. Couple that with Lamar's off the script running and he's usually around or over 10 rushing attempts not including kneels. There just wasn't any of that yesterday.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
Totally agree here, but there are definitely those runs GRo calls where as soon as the snap is caught Lamar just rolls out to one side running. And then he also occasionally calls a QB draw or at least it looks liek it when Lamar acts quickly on the opening. Couple that with Lamar's off the script running and he's usually around or over 10 rushing attempts not including kneels. There just wasn't any of that yesterday.
Yes, though some of that is based on pre-snap reads also. Like if your DE is already lined up inside the Tackle, and there's nothing on the outside, there's no reason to even run the option. It just becomes a designed outside run. Sometimes that's called in the huddle, other times that's a line-of-scrimmage read from the QB.
 

rmcjacket23

Ravens Ring of Honor
What do you guys think of Hollywood - esp. when you compare him to the rest of his draft class?
I think he could do everything Tyreke does in KC if he were playing with Mahomes. But he's not like this super, dynamic play maker who fits in every offense. He's not on the level of a Hopkins or Julio who would perform at a high level with any QB throwing to him, because he wins contested situations with size, strength, speed combinations.
 

organizedchaos21

Practice Squad
idk that i buy that he's locking onto hollywood - andrews maybe - but i think hollywood has fewer targets so far through the first 4 weeks this year than this time last year (not sure if week 5 changed things) and that is despite the increased passing attempts this year and the improved health of hollywood

i think the problem is that lamar's missing more throws which makes the missed opportunities feel more important and we're noticing them more because they're often coming on misses to hollywood and andrews

idk just a thought

Through 5 games:
2019 - 39 targets, 21 catches, 326 yards, 3 TD
2020 - 36 targets, 22 catches, 319 yards, 1 TD

Note that he missed a significant portion of the week 5 game against PIT (left in Q2, came back for some snaps in H2, then did not play against until week 9).

Regarding passing attempts, even with yesterday, the Ravens have thrown fewer passes in 2020 (138 total, 135 by Lamar) than the first 5 weeks of 2019 (168 total, 162 by Lamar).

cant say for sure before the a-22 comes out but looks to me like Proche got himself open for a potential conversion on the 4th down that lamar overthrew to andrews

he had 6 snaps this week (although think 1 was a kneel) but from what i can see so far i think all 5 were passing plays with him out on the route

Eh, I think Proche comes open after Lamar throws. I'm also 100% fine with throwing to Andrews when he has that step. Just need to make a better throw (hmm, this sounds familiar in 2020). I'd also like them to have the full complement of players on the field XD

Regarding Proche's snaps, correct on all counts. 5 dropbacks, 1 kneel.
 

Deebo813

Hall of Famer
We just have to deal with the inconsistent accuracy from lamar. I mean we all knew it would be this way.. i highly doubt he will ever have precision like accuracy. I still dont like that grip lol
 

D1City55

Pro Bowler
I really wish we got another WR in the off-season. I was pounding the table for one and I am
Another WR would be great because yes Lamar doesn’t seem to have a lot of trust outside Andrews & Brown. I can’t say I blame Lamar because Boykin has his issues so it is hard to trust him. He blocks great but the dude is kinda like Perriman in terms of fighting for the ball and his mental lapses. We really need a #2 Lamar can trust. Honestly it may be worth bringing in Antonio Brown to help this offense but I hate saying that.
I think Boykin is another Perriman in the sense that he doesn't play up to his size. As far as WRs are concerned we don't have a single physical presence there and that's an issue. Just one more would make a massive difference to this offense. I don't see any changes in store for next season, but they need to make a move in the off-season.
 

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Eh, I think Proche comes open after Lamar throws. I'm also 100% fine with throwing to Andrews when he has that step. Just need to make a better throw (hmm, this sounds familiar in 2020). I'd also like them to have the full complement of players on the field XD

i get that - but lamar was not hurried at all on that throw - like the play was pre-determined to andrews no matter what - and if it wasnt then idk what lamar's doing there

cant believe of all the plays for them not to have 11 guys on the field this is the one lol
 

ravenslord

Ravens Ring of Honor
Lamar looks rusty to me
I think the lack of preseason games and I think there were no minicamps in June hurt young QB's like Lamar.

With Covid, its not like Lamar could get together much with his receivers as it seemed the only one we saw were the Browns down in Florida.

His coaches have said Lamar needs a lot of reps and I dont think he got as much of that in the offseason.
 
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