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Pass rush

rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
redrum52 said:
Pretty sure character concerns were his problem. Besides that, I think everyone thought he was talented. I was shocked we took him considering the choir boy approach we seemed to have towards drafting after Rice. Don't quote me on this, but think he beat up Marty's kid in college over sneakers... or something along those lines. Happy to have him here and hope he makes the most if it.

On topic. Need to start using guys to their strength instead of shelving them. I feel like we've held Bowser and Williams back by trying to turn them into pieces they're not. Finally seems Harbaugh is starting to realize this, though, it seems more forced in certain spots due to players leaving.

Even with those guys gone, we struggled generating a continuous pass rush. I really don't think we get much worse considering the secondary play as well. Henry being back should be a big help on the interior with McPhee. Timmy should be an improvement on the edge over Smith and I dont care what people think.
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weve drafted plenty of character problem guys since rice - the only thing that 100% takes someone off our board in all cases is DV/sexual violence

and with willis i see him as a day 3 guy who went undrafted because of character concerns but he's not someone i would have generally expected to go in the first 2 days of the draft

lots of encouraging things in willis's game but also lots of things he'll have to work on if he wants to be a contributor in an nfl defence
 
redrum52

redrum52

Hall of Famer
RavensMania said:
could be the reason we signed him. In all truth though, we wouldn't have drafted Timmy Williams if we had such a choir boy mentality.
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That's why I said seemed. I know Timmy had his red flags but there have been people we've been in spot to take, at a position of need we've just ignored. Maybe the scouts didn't think they were good enough or the problems outweighed the skill, but the FO has appeared scared to pull the trigger at times.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
redrum52 said:
That's why I said seemed. I know Timmy had his red flags but there have been people we've been in spot to take, at a position of need we've just ignored. Maybe the scouts didn't think they were good enough or the problems outweighed the skill, but the FO has appeared scared to pull the trigger at times.
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normally that's just the front office having different grades and evaluations on players than us

and the bit we dont get to see is that those character issues get evaluated and examined with the players in interviews etc. too and how the players respond/what the coaches and other players say about those players with red flags ultimately comes into the grade

its hard to just generalise because the very nature of the lottery of the draft is the fact that every player is different, every issue is different - its partly why i hate player comparisons as evaluation short-hand
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
I'm working the idea of us periodically and situationally running a version of 3-3-5. ( the 5 part might be more of a single high with a fair amount of man) but specifically having a rotation of 3 LB/safety types with 3 down.

Bowser comes to mind as someone that can rush/cover and as versatile piece in general. as an example we might have Bowser, Judon, peanut as the three LB types with Pierce, Ferguson, McPhee up front ( in rotation...we're pretty deep on all three levels). Any of these LB's can be sent or drop or in Bowsers case especially, cover man.

Also...Bowser ought to be asked to cover TE more routinely in coverage....a guy like Njouku perhaps.. he was a problem I thought and it seems Bowser would be athletically/physically more suited in coverage
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Edgar said:
I'm working the idea of us periodically and situationally running a version of 3-3-5. ( the 5 part might be more of a single high with a fair amount of man) but specifically having a rotation of 3 LB/safety types with 3 down.

Bowser comes to mind as someone that can rush/cover and as versatile piece in general. as an example we might have Bowser, Judon, peanut as the three LB types with Pierce, Ferguson, McPhee up front ( in rotation...we're pretty deep on all three levels). Any of these LB's can be sent or drop or in Bowsers case especially, cover man.

Also...Bowser ought to be asked to cover TE more routinely in coverage....a guy like Njouku perhaps.. he was a problem I thought and it seems Bowser would be athletically/physically more suited in coverage
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while the way you described that is different, putting it all together just looks like a niche nickel version of our 3rd down dime package in the way that it would functionally work with everyone up at the line - the only thing is the part that makes that dime defence work is Levine as the flex at that dimebacker spot which this 3-3-5 doesnt have

but on an actual level i wouldnt mind this kind of a look but im not sure its something id want to see a lot because i think it'll be fairly easy to beat once a defence sees it a few times

but the idea of having ferguson, mcphee and pierce rushing from inside the tackles is a salivating thought
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
rossihunter2 said:
while the way you described that is different, putting it all together just looks like a niche nickel version of our 3rd down dime package in the way that it would functionally work with everyone up at the line - the only thing is the part that makes that dime defence work is Levine as the flex at that dimebacker spot which this 3-3-5 doesnt have

but on an actual level i wouldnt mind this kind of a look but im not sure its something id want to see a lot because i think it'll be fairly easy to beat once a defence sees it a few times

but the idea of having ferguson, mcphee and pierce rushing from inside the tackles is a salivating thought
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True enough about bringing them to the line... good point. ButI like the 3-3 as a means of being deceptive from a "base" look. To me it's the easiest to move in and out of into other fronts. It's very simple to move into an over with the kind of players we have. A three linebacker look with the right pieces ( I think we have them...Levine/peanut/Clark/Bowser/Elliot/jeffeerson) will cloud the look on all three levels. Also, the fact that we are so strong in man makes the back end so unpredictable).... I'm mostly interested in how multiple and position less we can become.....heck, I've seen Ferguson lined up as a mike linebacker in college.....(yes, he blitzed).

Im also looking to use Bowser...he can legitimately run with guys on posts/seams in man....
The third thing is the idea of this front with a lead late. I think, with the players we have it is just as easy to send extra rushers if you want...and you don't have to crowd the line early and crush it getting off the line into a drop and with backers/safety already close to their drops....the idea of whose dropping and whose coming AND what the coverage might be are endless and (I think) easier to disguise.
 
rossihunter2

rossihunter2

Staff Member
Moderator
Edgar said:
True enough about bringing them to the line... good point. ButI like the 3-3 as a means of being deceptive from a "base" look. To me it's the easiest to move in and out of into other fronts. It's very simple to move into an over with the kind of players we have. A three linebacker look with the right pieces ( I think we have them...Levine/peanut/Clark/Bowser/Elliot/jeffeerson) will cloud the look on all three levels. Also, the fact that we are so strong in man makes the back end so unpredictable).... I'm mostly interested in how multiple and position less we can become.....heck, I've seen Ferguson lined up as a mike linebacker in college.....(yes, he blitzed).

Im also looking to use Bowser...he can legitimately run with guys on posts/seams in man....
The third thing is the idea of this front with a lead late. I think, with the players we have it is just as easy to send extra rushers if you want...and you don't have to crowd the line early and crush it getting off the line into a drop and with backers/safety already close to their drops....the idea of whose dropping and whose coming AND what the coverage might be are endless and (I think) easier to disguise.
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i see - but honestly situationally where this kind of alignment and grouping might be most effective is in situations where i think our dime works even better

its certainly an interesting base concept given that we (like almost every other defence in the NFL) are a nickel base team at this point (there's a couple who still run base the most and the chargers who were a predominantly dime team - more than 50% of their snaps in dime)
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
Gosh, I'm just realizing how often we are in 2-4 nickel.....its a bit of a base look with wrinkles really
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
Where do you find the statistics on something like that?
I'm curious about whether that will continue. I didn't want to call it our base as such but can't think what else to call it;. ;)
We run it an awful lot on all three downs. @rossihunter2
 
RavensMania

RavensMania

Staff Member
Administrator
rossihunter2 said:
I mean looking purely statistically it is our base defence - it’s the defence we run most often, followed by dime and traditional 3-4 base is actually our 3rd defence
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yeah, I seem to recall seeing a statistic someplace that said we were in our base defense about 18% of the time last season.
 
cdp

cdp

Ravens Ring of Honor
Edgar said:
Where do you find the statistics on something like that?
I'm curious about whether that will continue. I didn't want to call it our base as such but can't think what else to call it;. ;)
We run it an awful lot on all three downs. @rossihunter2
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This is for the 2017 season (Pees last season, when he started to use the dime more often).
Number of DBs for 1032 snaps:
3 DBs: 1.1%
4 DBs: 30.7%
5 DBs: 39.9%
6 DBs: 28.3%

The most common substitutions from 4 to 7 DB packages have been: 4 DBs to 5: DL out, SCB in
5DBs to 6: ILB2 out, Dime (S) in (Ravens played a 4-1 dime)
 
Edgar

Edgar

Ravens Ring of Honor
operating out of a 3-3 front gives us the best opportunity to get the most pass rushers on the field at one time; consequently, a diverse and deceptive group. I know I've said it already but I can't shake the notion. We use a 2-4 so frequently ...I cant's how a three man front with this years personnel ( the right group) wouldn't be preferable on both fronts
 
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