RB Thread

[allblackraven]

Of course Jamal Lewis was a stud, but let's not forget we had one of the baddest defenses in league history.

Spoiler

P.S. I know you guys aren't forgetting that lol, but the fact still remains....

fixed

 

[rossihunter2]

This is all meaningless. If they weren't big contributors they aren't worth mentioning.

Teams with stud RBs don’t win Super Bowls very often, sorry.

what you are completely discounting is the fact that round 1 rbs disappeared for a while partly because of the lack of success teams had with round 1 rbs and the relative devaluation of rbs as a whole

since rbs have regained their status as round 1 relevant we have seen some huge playmakers who are absolutely assets to their team:
gurley, melvin gordon, zeke, fournette, mccaffrey - outside of gordon, every single one of them has been a significant contributor in their team's playoff reaching attempts...

and this belies the fact that the devaluation of rbs has meant that first round talents have fallen

what even counts as a stud rb anyway?
good players make their teams better - its the same as every other position... you can pick your own correlation on the graph all you want but i bet you that its mostly just a mass of dots on a graph with no obvious relationship beyond teams with more good players win games... the only position i reckon that has a strong correlation is qb

 

[RavensMania]

We're targeting Penny in round two. This Guice rumor is a rouse intended so that someone move ahead of us to take him in order that Ridley might more likely be there at sixteen.

Not really a huge fan of Penny. Runs too upright, too easy to take down, doesn't get much in the way of yards after contact. Could he be a change of pace guy, yeah maybe, but there are so many better backs in this draft and Penny in the 2nd is much too high.

 

[allblackraven]

Not really a huge fan of Penny. Runs too upright, too easy to take down, doesn't get much in the way of yards after contact. Could he be a change of pace guy, yeah maybe, but there are so many better backs in this draft and Penny in the 2nd is much too high.

At least he won't get caught much by the new rule.

Also, there's only one who can run upright and run well.

 

[DeVito52]

what you are completely discounting is the fact that round 1 rbs disappeared for a while partly because of the lack of success teams had with round 1 rbs and the relative devaluation of rbs as a whole

since rbs have regained their status as round 1 relevant we have seen some huge playmakers who are absolutely assets to their team:
gurley, melvin gordon, zeke, fournette, mccaffrey - outside of gordon, every single one of them has been a significant contributor in their team's playoff reaching attempts...

and this belies the fact that the devaluation of rbs has meant that first round talents have fallen

what even counts as a stud rb anyway?
good players make their teams better - its the same as every other position... you can pick your own correlation on the graph all you want but i bet you that its mostly just a mass of dots on a graph with no obvious relationship beyond teams with more good players win games... the only position i reckon that has a strong correlation is qb

Dude. Your first sentence is my entire argument, how am I discounting it? Also, they did not disappear for a while. 2 years. That's it, and that's because their were no huge talents besides Bell. Nice try though.

You proved my point. RBs have not regained their status of round 1 relevance considering none of the players you just named have won or been to a super bowl. I gave you the past 20 super bowl teams and there were a solid 2 guys who were a big part of their teams success. Facts.

The point is that teams are just as successful, if not more successful, with RBs that are picked after round 1. A 1st round RB is not an important part of being a super bowl contender, and certainly not a super bowl winner.

Good draft value lies elsewhere.

 

[rossihunter2]

Dude. Your first sentence is my entire argument, how am I discounting it? Also, they did not disappear for a while. 2 years. That's it, and that's because their were no huge talents besides Bell. Nice try though.

You proved my point. RBs have not regained their status of round 1 relevance considering none of the players you just named have won or been to a super bowl. I gave you the past 20 super bowl teams and there were a solid 2 guys who were a big part of their teams success. Facts.

The point is that teams are just as successful, if not more successful, with RBs that are picked after round 1. A 1st round RB is not an important part of being a super bowl contender, and certainly not a super bowl winner.

Good draft value lies elsewhere.

you are right that 1 rb does not make you a superbowl contender
my point is that neither does 1 wr or 1 te or 1 dt or 1 edge rusher etc

the value of the 1st round rb is just as high as another position outside of qb
and these round 1 rbs who are not making the superbowl arent exactly missing it by much as long as the rest of the team is good...

a stud rb improves your team to a ridiculous degree... if you get them in round 1 then you do it...

im not saying we absolutely should take guice but im saying that we shouldnt not take guice just because he happens to be a rb
and as much as a superbowl team is a superbowl team - that inherently doesnt mean a huge amount vs making the playoffs in terms of the actual quality of 1 individual player - but there were superbowl calibre offences who faltered at the wrong moment in recent times with these round 1 rbs

here are all the 1st round rbs since 2015

fournette gets to the championship round as a rookie and was a major reason why
zeke got to the divisional round and was the major reason why
mccaffrey turned a team devoid of weapons somehow into a playoff team (albeit they went out in the wildcard round)
melvin gordon has never made the playoffs but he's never been a stud rb
todd gurley only got to the wildcard round but is also the most dangerous weapon on the nfl's best offence and it was a surprise they didnt make it past the wildcard

the other important thing to note is that those first 3 rbs i mentioned went to franchises picking in the top 10 and were major reasons why their team's improved dramatically and all made the playoffs in their rookie season...

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Dude. Your first sentence is my entire argument, how am I discounting it? Also, they did not disappear for a while. 2 years. That's it, and that's because their were no huge talents besides Bell. Nice try though.

You proved my point. RBs have not regained their status of round 1 relevance considering none of the players you just named have won or been to a super bowl. I gave you the past 20 super bowl teams and there were a solid 2 guys who were a big part of their teams success. Facts.

The point is that teams are just as successful, if not more successful, with RBs that are picked after round 1. A 1st round RB is not an important part of being a super bowl contender, and certainly not a super bowl winner.

Good draft value lies elsewhere.

the falcons and colts havent won a SB with their first rounds qbs, guess they arent first round worthy either

 

[Oldfaithful]

the falcons and colts havent won a SB with their first rounds qbs, guess they arent first round worthy either

I guess we should just forfeit our first rounder then because I can literally name a hall of famer at almost every single position(Sans special teams which is the only place where this argument actually holds any merit) that never won a Super Bowl. Football is a team sport, yes, but an elite player at any position is going to be a massive boost.

Look at the Rams. Sure, McVay is an offensive genius and Goff is a pretty good QB. But that potent offense goes through Todd Gurley and it's not even close. Imo, Todd is the best back in the league. Sure, he cannot carry a team singlehandedl to a goddamn super bowl.. Guess what. NO ONE CAN. It's a myth that anyone can do this. The Cowboys had the best damn oline in the nfl before they had Zeke. They get Zeke and turn into a potent offense. The Jags offense was among the worst in the entire nfl before Fournette. While the defense carried them, Fournette made that offense from pure shit, to respectable. Saquon is going to be a stud for whoever drafts him.

The only real positions not worth a first round pick, solely because of their position, are on special teams. And sure, while other players at every position have made the hall of fame in literally any round, more often than not you're going to find elite players in the first round. NFL teams draft players based off of potential, nothing else. It's why you get guys like Ezekiel Ansah going in the first round. Raw as hell, but a big time talent. Boom, paid off when healthy. He's a franchise pass rusher despite not being the most polished dude before.

As far as Guice goes. He ain't an elite prospect, but he's the next best thing. He's got special traits. Do I have a first round grade on him? Yes. Do actual GMs?? Probably. Dude's a weapon and could push an offense over the top. Would I complain at all if we got him? No. I may have confidence in Collins and Dixon but Guice likely has a higher ceiling than both, and given that we are a run first team.. He'd fit the identity well.

A few years ago I had a similar opinion but after seeing the impacts that the past three RB talents have had on their teams as of late.. I can't agree with this anymore. If they're an elite talent at any position in the first round of the draft, take them(sans special teams, obviously)

 

[DeVito52]

the falcons and colts havent won a SB with their first rounds qbs, guess they arent first round worthy either

This doesn’t have much to do with what I’ve said to be honest.

 

[DeVito52]

My entire point was that you can draft RBs on day 2 and day 3 and get the same production as a RB from round 1. Happens all the time. Which is why RBs have become devalued.

I’ve gotten carried away and the rest of what I said can be argued. But that, can not.

 

[rossihunter2]

My entire point was that you can draft RBs on day 2 and day 3 and get the same production as a RB from round 1. Happens all the time. Which is why RBs have become devalued.

I’ve gotten carried away and the rest of what I said can be argued. But that, can not.

and the retaliatory point still stands - if that elite playmaker comes at the cost of a first round pick it doesnt matter that they happen to be a running back - as with every position you can still find elite talent later in the draft but it becomes exponentially harder - otherwise those day2/day3 rbs would be taken earlier...

 

[Edgar]

My entire point was that you can draft RBs on day 2 and day 3 and get the same production as a RB from round 1. Happens all the time. Which is why RBs have become devalued.

I’ve gotten carried away and the rest of what I said can be argued. But that, can not.

I'd take a special back in the first round. Guice doesn't qualify in that regard. Certainly not at sixteen. And you're right, there are plenty of backs that will get you the same level of production.
One of them is called Alex Collins and another is called Kenneth Dixon.

 

[Justdewinit20]

I guess we should just forfeit our first rounder then because I can literally name a hall of famer at almost every single position(Sans special teams which is the only place where this argument actually holds any merit) that never won a Super Bowl. Football is a team sport, yes, but an elite player at any position is going to be a massive boost.

Look at the Rams. Sure, McVay is an offensive genius and Goff is a pretty good QB. But that potent offense goes through Todd Gurley and it's not even close. Imo, Todd is the best back in the league. Sure, he cannot carry a team singlehandedl to a goddamn super bowl.. Guess what. NO ONE CAN. It's a myth that anyone can do this. The Cowboys had the best damn oline in the nfl before they had Zeke. They get Zeke and turn into a potent offense. The Jags offense was among the worst in the entire nfl before Fournette. While the defense carried them, Fournette made that offense from pure shit, to respectable. Saquon is going to be a stud for whoever drafts him.

The only real positions not worth a first round pick, solely because of their position, are on special teams. And sure, while other players at every position have made the hall of fame in literally any round, more often than not you're going to find elite players in the first round. NFL teams draft players based off of potential, nothing else. It's why you get guys like Ezekiel Ansah going in the first round. Raw as hell, but a big time talent. Boom, paid off when healthy. He's a franchise pass rusher despite not being the most polished dude before.

As far as Guice goes. He ain't an elite prospect, but he's the next best thing. He's got special traits. Do I have a first round grade on him? Yes. Do actual GMs?? Probably. Dude's a weapon and could push an offense over the top. Would I complain at all if we got him? No. I may have confidence in Collins and Dixon but Guice likely has a higher ceiling than both, and given that we are a run first team.. He'd fit the identity well.

A few years ago I had a similar opinion but after seeing the impacts that the past three RB talents have had on their teams as of late.. I can't agree with this anymore. If they're an elite talent at any position in the first round of the draft, take them(sans special teams, obviously)

Don’t agree with the Zeke statement. Dak was a huge part of that success they had. Gurley imo is not the best back in the league, he has trouble running inside but in space he’s talented. I think David Johnson(3rd round pick) is the best back in the league and it probably isn’t close. Sure RBs fall in the draft but I’m sure any GM would take Kareem Hunt and Kamara in the first after what they just did. Fournette was not a good back at all this year average at best a fantasy star but couldn’t break tackles or run inside zone and dropped passes. RB rely on so much around them a good o line, decent qb, WRs that require double coverage. If those pieces aren’t in place it makes not sense to take a talented RB high

 

[DeVito52]

and the retaliatory point still stands - if that elite playmaker comes at the cost of a first round pick it doesnt matter that they happen to be a running back - as with every position you can still find elite talent later in the draft but it becomes exponentially harder - otherwise those day2/day3 rbs would be taken earlier...

I just think you have a lot better of a chance of finding a good RB later in the draft as opposed to a WR or any other position really. And that’s the thing. There aren’t a ton of them taken earlier because there’s no reason to. It’s much easier to take an Olineman or an edge rusher or a WR or a TE earlier and wait for a RB later because it’s really not very hard to find good talent later in the draft.

 

[rossihunter2]

I just think you have a lot better of a chance of finding a good RB later in the draft as opposed to a WR or any other position really. And that’s the thing. There aren’t a ton of them taken earlier because there’s no reason to. It’s much easier to take an Olineman or an edge rusher or a WR or a TE earlier and wait for a RB later because it’s really not very hard to find good talent later in the draft.

i think that's the perception because rbs are flashier names during the draft process so we are more used to knowing the guys who drop - its true that the rb position has been devalued in the league (partially because of how many good rbs are coming from college) but i dont think necessarily that the draft devalues them per se

each draft has its own strengths and you could argue that its much easier to wait for a wr in this draft than a rb considering the strengths of the class
we've just got used to consistently strong and deep rb classes in recent history

 

[allblackraven]

and the retaliatory point still stands - if that elite playmaker comes at the cost of a first round pick it doesnt matter that they happen to be a running back - as with every position you can still find elite talent later in the draft but it becomes exponentially harder - otherwise those day2/day3 rbs would be taken earlier...

It does matter - you can get elite player at other position in 1st and scout better and find Kamara in 3rd. That's the entire point.

 

[rossihunter2]

It does matter - you can get elite player at other position in 1st and scout better and find Kamara in 3rd. That's the entire point.

but that's the same with every position in any given draft

 

[allblackraven]

but that's the same with every position in any given draft

Not imo - I'd argue that RB is the position in which you can find the best talent later in the draft in numbers

 

[rossihunter2]

Not imo - I'd argue that RB is the position in which you can find the best talent later in the draft in numbers

i think its more consistently deep than other positions but its not necessarily deeper than other positions in any given draft per se
i think also the different ways rbs are used in the nfl can give a larger sense of prowess to a player who is essentially a role player - "backup" rbs see the field more than any other position group in all likelihood hence the perception of their role is larger

but anywho we're getting a bit bogged down on the initial point which was about guice - and all ive been trying to articulate is that if guice is the highest guy on the board when we pick then you dont worry about the depth of rb later on in the draft you just take the playmaker

and if he's not the highest guy on the board then you dont take him...

 

[allblackraven]

i think its more consistently deep than other positions but its not necessarily deeper than other positions in any given draft per se
i think also the different ways rbs are used in the nfl can give a larger sense of prowess to a player who is essentially a role player - "backup" rbs see the field more than any other position group in all likelihood hence the perception of their role is larger

but anywho we're getting a bit bogged down on the initial point which was about guice - and all ive been trying to articulate is that if guice is the highest guy on the board when we pick then you dont worry about the depth of rb later on in the draft you just take the playmaker

and if he's not the highest guy on the board then you dont take him...

The reason, I think, is that most NFL teams are smart and they don't draft RBs early - thus you always have good number of pretty good ones to choose from in rounds 2-4.

Re Guice as BPA at #16 - I'd still pass, the next best won't be too far behind him on the board and if it's Da'Ron Payne, I take him every time.