The Offensive Line Thread

[Truth]

It appears to me that Eleumenor held up pretty nicely in pass protection with regards to the Allen sack.

Allen does a nice job of not losing eyes on Mallett, disengages and makes a play.

The pressure, (to my eyes) comes specifically as a result of our left tackle being beaten inside and from Jensen, along with the right guard being pushed into mallets lap.

Another angle shows Eleumenor generally handling Allen one on one, (For this play).

Agreed there, at least to an extent. James Hurst was soundly beaten on an inside move, and that's what helped spur the sack, hence the gingerly-labeled technically. I did edit the post and admittedly re-word the segment incorrectly, using against instead of around, which didn't help the context. And it didn't help Eleumenor that Hurst gave up multiple pressures at LT. However, I don't see Jensen's block having implication upon the outcome. I would contend that the set itself was troublesome regardless since Eleumenor was being walked back into the QB, and it appears that Mallet initially tucked the ball after glancing over at Allen. Had Mallet stood in the pocket, Allen would've had a favorable chance to plant his paw given that his leading shoulder unimpeded (Link). However, Mallet tucks the ball, negating the outside rush, forcing Allen to instead revert to a variation of the hump move to disengage in the opposite direction of his initial rush. In either case, we are in agreement that this was the least egregious clips of the ones posted.

 

[Boldnpurpblack]

Well i guess we have different meanings then cause i want to win. I want to see us in playoffs. All those " meaningful" games dont matter cause we lost them and came up short. We came up short cause we werent good enough.

Its easy to take this opinion when your team has given you almost 15 years of having a chance to be a legit playoff contender...

Watching an Xmas game vs the Steelers that decided the division was much more exciting for me, and something id much rather be able to take part in (even if we came up short) than an alternative where every December no game matters bc our team was mathematically eliminated 3 weeks ago.

Ask Browns fans if they had a week 16 game against a division rival where a win guaranteed them the division crown if that would be "meaningful" to them... especially compared to what their week 16 games have been for the past decade.

As much as i love my ravens and obviously want to win a super bowl every year -- part of me almost hopes for a downfall of epic proportions after an 9-7 type season where we barely miss the playoffs and Steve B caves to fan pressure and fires Ozzie/Harbs.... leading to a 10 year streak of 4-12 seasons.

Just to remind some of our fans with a swift kick in the rear what it means to be a loyal fan in most NFL towns. And remind them just how great it really is to go into every season with a reasonable expectation of being in the playoff hunt. Our success has spoiled many... and the Patriots have given many an unreasonable expectation of what success really is in a parody driven NFL when you dont have the greatest coach and QB of all time.

 

[Truth]

The one thing that gives me hope for him is that he really doesnt have much if any experience. Not just getting a late start, but the fact that he didnt play until his senior year at A&M and they largely run a spread offense where he was in a 2 point stance and the ball was out quick.

He mostly just had to get in the way for a second or two and job done.

So in terms of the finer points of blocking for a pro style offense with a QB under center, and man/gap blocking he really has no frame of reference and has never had coaching. I fully expected him to look lost and struggle, especially moving to the interior which hes never done and against starters/primary back ups which he wasnt expected to face much.

It wasnt a great showing, but at least in line or exceeded my expectations. And theres a good foundation of size, athleticism, and skill set (wrestling background and knowledge of holds, leverage, balance, using weight against opponent, etc...) for him to build off of with proper coaching.

For me, the real measuring stick isnt taking this first performance, but measuring that against what we see in the coming weeks.If there's marked improvement then ill be fairly optimistic about him.

Fair points, and this game alone obviously shouldn't be the sole indicator of his ceiling and upside. Texas A&M tackle prospects have seemingly had similar issues in recent years with carrying their hands too low, so it's fair to wonder if the coaching was also fully to his benefit. However, of the positives listed, I'm struggling to see the wrestling background carry over into the comprehension of leverage and balance. The latter two were essentially the backbone of my wrestling career throughout high school and college, and I consider the pitfalls within those traits to be fairly recognizable. With respect to the engagement process of position group, it especially necessitates spacial awareness, and that's been one of the most notable concerns in my eyes, the understanding of adjusting angles based on both the location and the movement speed of the target prior to contact to maintain and maximize balance. That's not to say that he outright doesn't have the traits, and they could very well become more visible as he becomes more familiar with the position and his technique becomes refined and nuanced. He was meant to be a project and I'll refrain from judging him fully as a product until at least the end of this season. I just haven't seen them in full function to date.

 

[Truth]

With Ryan Kelly slated to miss 6-8 weeks due to surgery, I wonder if that puts pressure on Indianapolis to sign Jeremy Zuttah. May render the discussions about him moot.

 

[Adreme]

Well i guess we have different meanings then cause i want to win. I want to see us in playoffs. All those " meaningful" games dont matter cause we lost them and came up short. We came up short cause we werent good enough.

Coming up short does not make you irrelevant. I agree I would like to see the Ravens win but losing one of your last games to be knocked out of the playoffs doe snot make you irrelevant. Irrelevant are half the teams in the NFL that are basically done in the middle of November and the only meaningful games they play are the ones that determine there opponents fate. THOSE teams are irrelevant because whether they win or lose it does not matter. If your argument was that 3 of the last 4 years that Ravens have made less of an impact than I would agree though cautioning that the Ravens have never made the playoffs by a lot even during there streak.

 

[rossihunter2]

The one thing that gives me hope for him is that he really doesnt have much if any experience. Not just getting a late start, but the fact that he didnt play until his senior year at A&M and they largely run a spread offense where he was in a 2 point stance and the ball was out quick.

He mostly just had to get in the way for a second or two and job done.

So in terms of the finer points of blocking for a pro style offense with a QB under center, and man/gap blocking he really has no frame of reference and has never had coaching. I fully expected him to look lost and struggle, especially moving to the interior which hes never done and against starters/primary back ups which he wasnt expected to face much.

It wasnt a great showing, but at least in line or exceeded my expectations. And theres a good foundation of size, athleticism, and skill set (wrestling background and knowledge of holds, leverage, balance, using weight against opponent, etc...) for him to build off of with proper coaching.

For me, the real measuring stick isnt taking this first performance, but measuring that against what we see in the coming weeks.If there's marked improvement then ill be fairly optimistic about him.

i agree 100% - it was not a pretty performance by eluemunor but its crazy that he was even starting the game given where he's come from and while he wasnt good by any stretch the fact that he wasnt a complete turnstile is promising - i dont know what people were necessarily expecting out of a 1 year starter with very little history of line play who didnt grow up around the game

so i fully expect him to improve and if/when he doesn't then we can be concerned but i feel like its premature to be discussing him as a disappointment already - i did not find myself disappointed by his performance - if i was disappointed by anything, it was the fact that he had to start in the first place

 

[Deebo813]

Coming up short does not make you irrelevant. I agree I would like to see the Ravens win but losing one of your last games to be knocked out of the playoffs doe snot make you irrelevant. Irrelevant are half the teams in the NFL that are basically done in the middle of November and the only meaningful games they play are the ones that determine there opponents fate. THOSE teams are irrelevant because whether they win or lose it does not matter. If your argument was that 3 of the last 4 years that Ravens have made less of an impact than I would agree though cautioning that the Ravens have never made the playoffs by a lot even during there streak.

We only came up short like the last few years so thats what i was referring too. My bad i shouldve mentioned it. The other guy did which i replied to first though

 

[Rav'n Maniac]

With Ryan Kelly slated to miss 6-8 weeks due to surgery, I wonder if that puts pressure on Indianapolis to sign Jeremy Zuttah. May render the discussions about him moot.

Agreed, If I'm Zuttah, I'm going where I have the best opportunity of starting, as long as the money is comparable.

 

[Boldnpurpblack]

Fair points, and this game alone obviously shouldn't be the sole indicator of his ceiling and upside. Texas A&M tackle prospects have seemingly had similar issues in recent years with carrying their hands too low, so it's fair to wonder if the coaching was also fully to his benefit. However, of the positives listed, I'm struggling to see the wrestling background carry over into the comprehension of leverage and balance. The latter two were essentially the backbone of my wrestling career throughout high school and college, and I consider the pitfalls within those traits to be fairly recognizable. With respect to the engagement process of position group, it especially necessitates spacial awareness, and that's been one of the most notable concerns in my eyes, the understanding of adjusting angles based on both the location and the movement speed of the target prior to contact to maintain and maximize balance. That's not to say that he outright doesn't have the traits, and they could very well become more visible as he becomes more familiar with the position and his technique becomes refined and nuanced. He was meant to be a project and I'll refrain from judging him fully as a product until at least the end of this season. I just haven't seen them in full function to date.

I cant say this with 100% confidence - but i imagine his wrestling weight was much lower than his football playing weight... so it may be that those athletic traits are in there - he just hasnt yet adapted to be able to control/display them while carrying this weight.

It may also be that his success in wrestling came from primarily just overpowering lesser sized individuals to where leverage and balance werent big enough advantages for his opponents to overcome his advantage in size/strength.

We'll see... im just surmising that based on that background, some of those fundamentals, ideas and athletic traits are in there somewhere; he just hasnt found a level of comfort in football yet where hes still overly focused on other things to just let his natural athletic traits take over and guide him, or to where the game hasnt slowed down enough for him to rely on his natural ability.

And I know you werent using just the 1 performance to return an indictment on his career... just stating why i still have a decent level of optimism. Mainly because i had 0 expectation of him bringing anything to the team this year; so him having a handful of good plays or a good series against starter/primary back up level NFL talent is more of a return then i envisioned.

 

[Boldnpurpblack]

Agreed, If I'm Zuttah, I'm going where I have the best opportunity of starting, as long as the money is comparable.

If I'm Zuttah, and the money's near equal, im going where im least likely to play. That way my complete lack of power/push isnt exposed for 16 straight weeks, and theres a chance I could get another contract next year based on my name recognition, recent pro bowl nod, and former above average play.

Taking a 1 year deal (which is i imagine all he'll get from either team) to go start could be the nail in his career... after the Center-less Ravens traded him for a 6th round pick swap, and then the Center-less 49ers gave up on him after just 2-3 weeks of practice.

--
Of course, thats not what I would do if I were in Zuttah's position bc im competitive and confident... and its not what zuttah will do bc hes likely the same way. But, knowing what i know about him, and not having the same pride/ego i would have about myself - that objectively is probably his best career move.

 

[Truth]

I cant say this with 100% confidence - but i imagine his wrestling weight was much lower than his football playing weight... so it may be that those athletic traits are in there - he just hasnt yet adapted to be able to control/display them while carrying this weight.

It may also be that his success in wrestling came from primarily just overpowering lesser sized individuals to where leverage and balance werent big enough advantages for his opponents to overcome his advantage in size/strength.

We'll see... im just surmising that based on that background, some of those fundamentals, ideas and athletic traits are in there somewhere; he just hasnt found a level of comfort in football yet where hes still overly focused on other things to just let his natural athletic traits take over and guide him, or to where the game hasnt slowed down enough for him to rely on his natural ability.

And I know you werent using just the 1 performance to return an indictment on his career... just stating why i still have a decent level of optimism. Mainly because i had 0 expectation of him bringing anything to the team this year; so him having a handful of good plays or a good series against starter/primary back up level NFL talent is more of a return then i envisioned.

Can't disagree with any notion above. Appreciate it. Just wanted to state it for the record since my post was a critical review and it could've implied otherwise. The last point is very much fair.

 

[RavensMania]

This should be the theme for this or any message board

 

[The Raven]

The starting oline today looked pretty damn good and it wasn't even our starting oline. Jensen is moving people and got some brutal pancakes. Hurst looked solid (yes he did) at LT. Skura is putting it together. Idek who Pughsley is but he was solid. Austin Howard looked... well, fat, to put it bluntly, when I first saw him, but he looked good, too. His length and strength really helps with his complete lack of mobility. He's powerful.

I'm also further impressed by the diversity of our scheme. The counters, the misdirectioons, the traps, my God I want to play in this scheme. I saw one play, it looked like a misdirection, where the line just crashed the defense one way, and the dlineman Patrick Ricard comes across on a fucking nasty cut block and we gouged them off tackle. This helps illustrate another advantage of gap over zone: it wears out the defense physically and mentally.

Still pretty optimistic here. Excited to see how we look when we have out full starting line in.

 

[RavensMania]

The starting oline today looked pretty damn good and it wasn't even our starting oline. Jensen is moving people and got some brutal pancakes. Hurst looked solid (yes he did) at LT. Skura is putting it together. Idek who Pughsley is but he was solid. Austin Howard looked... well, fat, to put it bluntly, when I first saw him, but he looked good, too. His length and strength really helps with his complete lack of mobility. He's powerful.

I'm also further impressed by the diversity of our scheme. The counters, the misdirectioons, the traps, my God I want to play in this scheme. I saw one play, it looked like a misdirection, where the line just crashed the defense one way, and the dlineman Patrick Ricard comes across on a fucking nasty cut block and we gouged them off tackle. This helps illustrate another advantage of gap over zone: it wears out the defense physically and mentally.

Still pretty optimistic here. Excited to see how we look when we have out full starting line in.

They need to cut down on the penalties, but I agree it will come together when Yanda and Stanley get out there, plus we make a decision on starting LG

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Thoroughly disappointed in Howard's first performance, but understand he's a veteran coming off an injury. He looked clumsy and was reaching and chasing blocks.

Hurst once again looked capable of starting.

Jensen once again looks like a bully who should set the tone for the OL every snap.

Skura and pughsley looked horrible

 

[RavensMania]

Thoroughly disappointed in Howard's first performance, but understand he's a veteran coming off an injury. He looked clumsy and was reaching and chasing blocks.

Hurst once again looked capable of starting.

Jensen once again looks like a bully who should set the tone for the OL every snap.

Skura and pughsley looked horrible

I agree that Jensen looked good and Skura and Pugsley were missing blocks.

 

[Ravenbran]

Not what I heard

Not what I heard[/QUOT

Agreed there, at least to an extent. James Hurst was soundly beaten on an inside move, and that's what helped spur the sack, hence the gingerly-labeled technically. I did edit the post and admittedly re-word the segment incorrectly, using against instead of around, which didn't help the context. And it didn't help Eleumenor that Hurst gave up multiple pressures at LT. However, I don't see Jensen's block having implication upon the outcome. I would contend that the set itself was troublesome regardless since Eleumenor was being walked back into the QB, and it appears that Mallet initially tucked the ball after glancing over at Allen. Had Mallet stood in the pocket, Allen would've had a favorable chance to plant his paw given that his leading shoulder unimpeded (Link). However, Mallet tucks the ball, negating the outside rush, forcing Allen to instead revert to a variation of the hump move to disengage in the opposite direction of his initial rush. In either case, we are in agreement that this was the least egregious clips of the ones posted.

Agreed there, at least to an extent. James Hurst was soundly beaten on an inside move, and that's what helped spur the sack, hence the gingerly-labeled technically. I did edit the post and admittedly re-word the segment incorrectly, using against instead of around, which didn't help the context. And it didn't help Eleumenor that Hurst gave up multiple pressures at LT. However, I don't see Jensen's block having implication upon the outcome. I would contend that the set itself was troublesome regardless since Eleumenor was being walked back into the QB, and it appears that Mallet initially tucked the ball after glancing over at Allen. Had Mallet stood in the pocket, Allen would've had a favorable chance to plant his paw given that his leading shoulder unimpeded (Link). However, Mallet tucks the ball, negating the outside rush, forcing Allen to instead revert to a variation of the hump move to disengage in the opposite direction of his initial rush. In either case, we are in agreement that this was the least egregious clips of the ones posted.

 

[Ravenbran]

I think its so ironic that you can say all that and not have one clue what you are talking about.

 

[rossihunter2]

i thought hurst did pretty well, howard was a bit disappointing, jensen impressed me, pughsley doesnt even enter my radar and skura was a little reminiscent of zuttah from last year - some positives and some disappointments overall

 

[Davesta]

I wonder if hurst would be better at RT and try howard at guard.