Lamar Jackson

[rossihunter2]

Yep, seems we are. I guess I could see the point if you have more than one QB that you trust and a ton of weapons surrounding them, but for me you are resigning to that player being expendable. It happens too often, running or not, to not be recognized as an increased risk.

maybe in the past - and maybe it shortens the career lengths of the successful guys from 15 years to 10 but there is now a collection of exciting and effective running qbs in the NFL and a whole host of others for whom escapability is a major part of their game too

Cam Newton
Russell Wilson
Deshaun Watson
Marcus Mariota
Tyrod Taylor
Alex Smith
Andrew Luck
Dak Prescott
Ryan Tannehill
Jacoby Brissett
Blaine Gabbert
Colin Kaepernick (not sure if he counts anymore)
Robert Griffin III
Deshone Kizer

these guys are for sure thought of as running qbs but i think you could say that the following list also contains guys who you expect to run when they can:

Blake Bortles
Andy Dalton
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Case Keenum
Trevor Siemian
Mitch Trubisky
Patrick Mahomes
Jimmy Garropolo
Josh McCown
Aaron Rodgers

and at least 3 of the top 5 qbs (and probably 4 tbh) would fit on these 2 lists and these lists are by no means complete
running of course increases the risk of injury to a player but it also inordinately opens up the offence to be more effective in so many other ways even when said qb doesnt actually run

i just can never see adding a threat to a qb's game as an overall negative - there's risk on every play and players get injured in non-contact all the time too - and jackson's rarely gonna get lit up with the new helmet rules as long as he learns not to power finish his runs head on - if he learns to slide he negates so much of the risk - and when joe flacco's 2 major injuries in his career have come from his own lineman rolling up on him in the pocket and an offseason pre-training-camp-non-contact-off-facility-workout-session there's not really a worse place in terms of qb injury happenstances to be coming from lol...

 

[rossihunter2]

Same build, as in their bodies. lol 6’2” 215 give or take.

What you say could be true, but no one has any idea how his game will translate when the designed runs are removed. Not saying he won’t be a good one, it’s just not the guaranteed deal some seem to think it is.

there's a middle ground - you can be a pocket passer and also have designed runs - even andy dalton has designed runs that the bengals make part of the game plan in certain weeks to add a dimension to their offence...

i doubt we would ever or should ever remove designed runs from a jackson-led offence but that doesnt mean i want him to look like a qb for Navy

 

[Tank]

maybe in the past - and maybe it shortens the career lengths of the successful guys from 15 years to 10 but there is now a collection of exciting and effective running qbs in the NFL and a whole host of others for whom escapability is a major part of their game too

Cam Newton
Russell Wilson
Deshaun Watson
Marcus Mariota
Tyrod Taylor
Alex Smith
Andrew Luck
Dak Prescott
Ryan Tannehill
Jacoby Brissett
Blaine Gabbert
Colin Kaepernick (not sure if he counts anymore)
Robert Griffin III
Deshone Kizer

these guys are for sure thought of as running qbs but i think you could say that the following list also contains guys who you expect to run when they can:

Blake Bortles
Andy Dalton
Ryan Fitzpatrick
Case Keenum
Trevor Siemian
Mitch Trubisky
Patrick Mahomes
Jimmy Garropolo
Josh McCown
Aaron Rodgers

and at least 3 of the top 5 qbs (and probably 4 tbh) would fit on these 2 lists and these lists are by no means complete
running of course increases the risk of injury to a player but it also inordinately opens up the offence to be more effective in so many other ways even when said qb doesnt actually run

i just can never see adding a threat to a qb's game as an overall negative - there's risk on every play and players get injured in non-contact all the time too - and jackson's rarely gonna get lit up with the new helmet rules as long as he learns not to power finish his runs head on - if he learns to slide he negates so much of the risk - and when joe flacco's 2 major injuries in his career have come from his own lineman rolling up on him in the pocket and an offseason pre-training-camp-non-contact-off-facility-workout-session there's not really a worse place in terms of qb injury happenstances to be coming from lol...

Thanks for the research. How many playoff wins/SB winners on those lists?

Totally agree mobility is a must, but generally having a franchise QB running by design is dumb.

 

[rossihunter2]

Thanks for the research. How many playoff wins/SB winners on those lists?

Totally agree mobility is a must, but generally having a franchise QB running is dumb.

it's 1 SB win on each list
although if we count appearances then we can add another couple to the first list...

i couldnt tell you how many playoff wins

but on the first list we've got an MVP, a perennial MVP candidate, a hugely exciting sophomore, the best college qb prospect (maybe ever) who also happens to be a perennial MVP candidate when healthy, a bunch of solid starters (and a couple of not so solid starters too lol), and Marcus Mariota who is none of the above

i understand the hesitancy but i dont see how its dumb to have a franchise qb run if its a part of their game and it helps the offence

 

[Tank]

i understand the hesitancy but i dont see how its dumb to have a franchise qb run if its a part of their game and it helps the offence

It’s a simple matter of risk assessment/avoidance. You only have one franchise QB(huge investment) on your roster and losing that player more often than not spells lost season, if not seasons. Again, I’m talking about designed runs being dumb, not about being mobile and elusive.

 

[Deebo813]

When it comes to lamar taking hits, i think some of you are mistaking him for your typical soft ass qbs with no toughness. Yes our qb should avoid contact, but trust me when i say lamar is a rough ass player.... didint know you guys were talking about designed runs, yea ill pass on that. Shit is wack

 

[allblackraven]

When it comes to lamar taking hits, i think some of you are mistaking him for your typical soft ass qbs with no toughness. Yes our qb should avoid contact, but trust me when i say lamar is a rough ass player.... didint know you guys were talking about designed runs, yea ill pass on that. Shit is wack

Lamar might be tough but he's going to get hit buy guys who hit little harder than what he's used to in college.

 

[DeVito52]

I would rather Lamar run designed runs than improvised scrambles idk wtf you guys are talking about.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

It’s a simple matter of risk assessment/avoidance. You only have one franchise QB(huge investment) on your roster and losing that player more often than not spells lost season, if not seasons. Again, I’m talking about designed runs being dumb, not about being mobile and elusive.

Designed runs are exactly that, designed. They are blocked properly and are more likely to send him running away from contact, it's almost 100% on him to go down rather than lower his shoulder and fight for yards. Hits in the pocket are far more dangerous, impovised runs as well.

Plus, what good is your franchise qb if he's a Vick and you try to play him like a brady? Fuck that, go win games, if he gets hurt at least you were out there doing what you had to do to win. All it takes is 1 or 2 designed runs a game to make pass rushers hesitate on literally every snap, which is exactly what you want.

 

[RavensMania]

Bob and Lamar are actually quite different as far as prospects go. Lamar actually has the ability to become a pass first QB.. And the only reason he wasn't in college is because he had absolutely no one to help him whatsoever.

I hate run first guys too. Jackson probably isn't gonna be that at the pro level. The dude can throw and had passing traits coming out of school RGIII wishes he had

RG3 was a pass first qb in college and in Washington. He also was very accurate, but he couldn’t see the field and never had a playbook at Baylor. He also didn’t protect himself and because of this was injured on multiple occasions.

RG3 wanted to be a pocket passer and in yr two and didn’t want Kyle Shanahan designing many read option plays. If the opposing team thinks they are coming, they have to spend time preparing for it and the backside edge is a half second late as well.

 

[RavensMania]

Same build, as in their bodies. lol 6’2” 215 give or take.

What you say could be true, but no one has any idea how his game will translate when the designed runs are removed. Not saying he won’t be a good one, it’s just not the guaranteed deal some seem to think it is.

RG3 was 6’2 3/4 and 220 coming out of school, so very close.

 

[Deebo813]

Designed runs are exactly that, designed. They are blocked properly and are more likely to send him running away from contact, it's almost 100% on him to go down rather than lower his shoulder and fight for yards. Hits in the pocket are far more dangerous, impovised runs as well.

Plus, what good is your franchise qb if he's a Vick and you try to play him like a brady? Fuck that, go win games, if he gets hurt at least you were out there doing what you had to do to win. All it takes is 1 or 2 designed runs a game to make pass rushers hesitate on literally every snap, which is exactly what you want.

i dont want a vick.. i want a russ wilson even though thats highly unlikely..

 

[Ellicottraven]

Call me crazy, i think i would have been more excited if we drafted mason in the 3rd over Jackson in the 1st.

Yes sir you certainly are!

 

[Oldfaithful]

RG3 was a pass first qb in college and in Washington. He also was very accurate, but he couldn’t see the field and never had a playbook at Baylor. He also didn’t protect himself and because of this was injured on multiple occasions.

RG3 wanted to be a pocket passer and in yr two and didn’t want Kyle Shanahan designing many read option plays. If the opposing team thinks they are coming, they have to spend time preparing for it and the backside edge is a half second late as well.

Here's the thing: Jackson can read the fucking field and actually has pocket presence. He needs mechanical issues but that's literally it. He may have scored poorly on that wonderlic of his but he does not play like a moron on the field. In contrast to a guy like Josh Allen who had a high wonderlic score but is a total moron on the field.

Jackson is that rare QB who can actually sit and learn something because his game is far more developed than given credit for. He has the occasional lapse, but he was a college player. Say what you want but Flacco is kind of the perfect guy to watch. Flacco's spotty as a QB but when he's in rhythm he's a good QB to learn from. When he's on his A-game Flacco has good pocket presence, and can read the field pretty decently. Lamar can learn a lot from him.

And to put the dumbass(cause that's what it is) argument to rest. No. Jackson did not fall to 32 because he was black. Baker was FAR more polished than he was. So was Rosen. So was Darnold. And the Bills are fucking idiots so they took Allen in the top ten when I wouldn't have even touched him in the first 3 rounds. Jackson is a hell of a runner and probably the best athlete to come out of the draft at that positions since Vick.. But make no mistakes. He can play. Jackson would've been the #1 QB selected last year and next year imo. He was a top 10 player on my board and getting him at 32 was a fucking steal. It doesn't mattter if all of our other picks bust. If Jackson is a success, so was this draft.

I do have worries about his build as well which is why I hope we draft a QB high next year too(even if the class is dismal). But his mechanical issues can be corrected with a good QB and we've started to build a good foundation for him. Which is what I said we needed to do this offseason. Build the skeleton of the offense. We've addded some solid oline prospects, two good pass catching TES, and a few good but not great options on the outside at WR. Find us a #1 WR in this draft and a successor for Yanda and Jackson is going to go "Oh shit... I have help. I've never had this before" and he might go on a tear.

I'd prefer Jackson to sit two years though. If Flacco plays as well as I think he can with the supporting cast we've given him(we've added 5 capable pass catchers this offseason along with upgrading the RT position and he gets Yanda back) than I suspect Flacco is here for another year longer than anticipated. We're both in win now mode while rebuilding. You know how rare that shit is.

Ozzie built the skeleton, but also prepared us for a brain transplant for when Flacco's gone. Ozzie might've ended his career with the best offseason he's had since.... 2008

 

[rossihunter2]

RG3 was a pass first qb in college and in Washington. He also was very accurate, but he couldn’t see the field and never had a playbook at Baylor. He also didn’t protect himself and because of this was injured on multiple occasions.

RG3 wanted to be a pocket passer and in yr two and didn’t want Kyle Shanahan designing many read option plays. If the opposing team thinks they are coming, they have to spend time preparing for it and the backside edge is a half second late as well.

yea that's an important point because RGIII was a rookie of the year and Shanahan wanted to keep the offence based in a similar system but RGIII was determined to change - and that was the beginning of his downfall - Marty and Roman aren't shanahan but Jackson would do well to not follow the same route that RGIII took

we need to look at Shanahan and how he and Mcvay call their offences around their best players and we need to look at how Bill O'Brien created an offence that features Deshaun Watson as a passer but also uses Watson's legs in a significant and dangerous way

 

[Oldfaithful]

yea that's an important point because RGIII was a rookie of the year and Shanahan wanted to keep the offence based in a similar system but RGIII was determined to change - and that was the beginning of his downfall - Marty and Roman aren't shanahan but Jackson would do well to not follow the same route that RGIII took

we need to look at Shanahan and how he and Mcvay call their offences around their best players and we need to look at how Bill O'Brien created an offence that features Deshaun Watson as a passer but also uses Watson's legs in a significant and dangerous way

Which is important to note. While I do want Jackson to become a QB that can beat teams with only his arm... Which he can very well do. That doesn't mean we shouldn't use his ability to move to our advantage.. I'd actually argue that his passing is far more polished than say a Colin Kaepernick's was, which was Kaepernick's downfall ultimately. I'd argue Jackson's pocket presence is superior to say RGIII's was, and RGIII was actually pretty underrated imo.

In order for Jackson to succeed he is going to have to become a pass first guy. That's an indisputeable fact. Name one run first QB who couldn't pass that has actually won a SB and he was the catalyst for that.. Exactly. Kaepernick is probably the closest thing I've seen to that and he didn't come out on top.

But look at Cam Newton. If you asked Cam Newton to go dominate a team without running he could very well do it, he's that good of a passer, but the Panthers are going to incorporate his mobility because he's a fucking QB in LB's body. That's what Jackson needs to become as a player, and he's further along then anyone possibly gives him credit for

 

[DeVito52]

Here's the thing: Jackson can read the fucking field and actually has pocket presence. He needs mechanical issues but that's literally it. He may have scored poorly on that wonderlic of his but he does not play like a moron on the field. In contrast to a guy like Josh Allen who had a high wonderlic score but is a total moron on the field.

Jackson is that rare QB who can actually sit and learn something because his game is far more developed than given credit for. He has the occasional lapse, but he was a college player. Say what you want but Flacco is kind of the perfect guy to watch. Flacco's spotty as a QB but when he's in rhythm he's a good QB to learn from. When he's on his A-game Flacco has good pocket presence, and can read the field pretty decently. Lamar can learn a lot from him.

And to put the dumbass(cause that's what it is) argument to rest. No. Jackson did not fall to 32 because he was black. Baker was FAR more polished than he was. So was Rosen. So was Darnold. And the Bills are fucking idiots so they took Allen in the top ten when I wouldn't have even touched him in the first 3 rounds. Jackson is a hell of a runner and probably the best athlete to come out of the draft at that positions since Vick.. But make no mistakes. He can play. Jackson would've been the #1 QB selected last year and next year imo. He was a top 10 player on my board and getting him at 32 was a fucking steal. It doesn't mattter if all of our other picks bust. If Jackson is a success, so was this draft.

I do have worries about his build as well which is why I hope we draft a QB high next year too(even if the class is dismal). But his mechanical issues can be corrected with a good QB and we've started to build a good foundation for him. Which is what I said we needed to do this offseason. Build the skeleton of the offense. We've addded some solid oline prospects, two good pass catching TES, and a few good but not great options on the outside at WR. Find us a #1 WR in this draft and a successor for Yanda and Jackson is going to go "Oh shit... I have help. I've never had this before" and he might go on a tear.

I'd prefer Jackson to sit two years though. If Flacco plays as well as I think he can with the supporting cast we've given him(we've added 5 capable pass catchers this offseason along with upgrading the RT position and he gets Yanda back) than I suspect Flacco is here for another year longer than anticipated. We're both in win now mode while rebuilding. You know how rare that shit is.

Ozzie built the skeleton, but also prepared us for a brain transplant for when Flacco's gone. Ozzie might've ended his career with the best offseason he's had since.... 2008

Dan Marino got a 15 on his Wonderlic. One of the greatest QBs of all time got a damn 15 but people still think it matters.

Terry Bradshaw got a 16. Donovan Mcnabb got a 14. Ray Lewis got a 13 but was one of the smartest defensive players of all time.

I could literally go on for hours about good to great skill position players who got terrible scores. Adrian Peterson scored a 16. AJ Green scored a 10. Frank Gore scored a 6. They aren't QBs but it's still relevant. They have to learn playbooks and all that nonsense.

Anyone who thinks the Wonderlic means anything is a dumb ass.

 

[Oldfaithful]

Dan Marino got a 15 on his Wonderlic. One of the greatest QBs of all time got a damn 15 but people still think it matters.

Terry Bradshaw got a 16. Donovan Mcnabb got a 14. Ray Lewis got a 13 but was one of the smartest defensive players of all time.

I could literally go on for hours about good to great skill position players who got terrible scores. Adrian Peterson scored a 16. AJ Green scored a 10. Frank Gore scored a 6. They aren't QBs but it's still relevant. They have to learn playbooks and all that nonsense.

Anyone who thinks the Wonderlic means anything is a dumb ass.

I don't give a flying fuck about the wonderlic. Like at all. Jimi Hendrix couldn't read music, greatest and most influential guitar player of all time.

You mean to tell me Josh Allen is smarter about football than Peyton fucking Manning... The smartest QB in NFL history. Give me a break. Allen was a moron on and based off of those tweets, off the field as well.

Jackson's interview demeanor worries me slightly... But not totally. Flacco is one of the most boring QBs I've ever had to listen too and seems dull and like a total, but all in all.. Flacco was a fine NFL QB. Not elite or great, but he was a franchise QB for 10 years who won a SB. Anyone who claims that his career and tenure in Baltimore was not a total success is a total moron. What I care about above all else is the tape. You can have all the measureables in the world. Cannon arm, freakish athleticism. If you can't play at all it's blatantly obvious. I compared Josh Allen to Cardale Jones and Logan Thomas with far more hype because of that freakishly strong arm of his... All three, great athletes for the QB position. Neither of them could read the field worth a damn, had poor pocket presence, and made moronic decisions.

Jackson displayed progression in his football IQ on the field during his years in Louisville and made tremendous strides as a passer each year he was there. I have no doubts that if he actually had a decent team around him, he could've dominated teams solely with his arm.

Yes, he needs to fix his footwork a little. Yes, he needs to get a tad bigger. Yes he needs to learn how to slide and go out of bounds sooner. He could stand to improve in reading the field(though he's not bad at it at all). Here's the thing.. All of those problems are fixable by coaches who know what they're doing. Urban was a good guy to bring in for this reason. He's got a track record. Jackson has some raw qualities and I wouldn't prefer it if he were to start day one, but I have far more confidence in him starting day one over guys like Mason Rudolph and Josh Allen

 

[rossihunter2]

Jackson's interview demeanor worries me slightly

in what way?

 

[Oldfaithful]

in what way?

He doesn’t seem like the smartest guy. But that said. He doesn’t seem like a dumb football player either.

It worries me slightly but ultimately is a likely non-sequitur.

He’s not Ronnie stanley. I remember ravens fans freaking out over his interview because he was soft spoken. y’all may have heard soft spoken, I listened to his words. Stanley was intelligent and just listening to him talk you could tell. Which you could also tell in how he conducted himself. Jackson seems somewhat irksome but he could have an IQ of 15. If he’s a good football player and knows how to read a field I’m good with him