Lamar Jackson

[ravenslord]

idk at this point - i think he's mostly been pretty good but the spacing issues like that are really really frustrating because they suggest that we've still ultimately got the same problems as last year...

and it can only be one of 2 things: either the routes and plays are designed like that (which would be unforgivable), or the receivers are making mistakes somewhere... i know andrews (and hollywood too) is given some ability to free-lance at times with his routes but i cant imagine that they'd allow him to do that in ways that would destroy the route concept and play design

i wonder if the problem is they both know lamar so well that they both make the same decisions when they freelance to find the same space which would make sense given what went wrong on the first play... looks to me like hollywood spotted no one guarding him and wanted lamar to alert to him and andrews also sees the space and runs a quick out into that same space (but that still doesnt account for that 2nd play where it's andrews and watkins who take each other's space away)

if it is player detail/execution then that still comes down to coaching (but more indirectly) because the details and the choices they make have to be correct

it's hard to know what specifically went wrong, but what is clear is that something is consistently going wrong and it's either a case of lack of detail in execution or it's a deficiency in play-design

that 1st play it seems pretty clear that hollywood free-lanced (but made a good decision if lamar sees it and they communicate better), the 2nd play is really the one that makes no sense to me because i cant work out who or what was supposed to happen differently

Those spacing problems looked really amateur,embarrasing in fact.

 

[29BmoreBird22]

Right, but keep in mind that "prioritizing Tackle" doesn't mean a first round pick or even an expensive veteran. It may mean a day 2 or even day 3 pick.
And I can guarantee that the fanbase and even this message board will be extremely upset if we the only thing we have after day 1 of the draft is what we have now, which I think is a real possibility.

I just want a guy with a realstic chance to compete. Orlando Brown Jr was a third rounder. You get the next Brown Jr and I'm happy.

I just don't want to see a bandaid, and a dirty one at that, like Villaneuva again, personally

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I just want a guy with a realstic chance to compete. Orlando Brown Jr was a third rounder. You get the next Brown Jr and I'm happy.

I just don't want to see a bandaid, and a dirty one at that, like Villaneuva again, personally

Have you watched any film on Trevor penning? I am seriously a fan of that guy, and idk if he will be available to us, but he looks like the dream fit

 

[ravenslord]

I just want a guy with a realstic chance to compete. Orlando Brown Jr was a third rounder. You get the next Brown Jr and I'm happy.

I just don't want to see a bandaid, and a dirty one at that, like Villaneuva again, personally

Villaneuva is way worse than I thought he would be. I can't see us keeping him,can you? If we do,our o line really is that bad.

 

[rmcjacket23]

I just want a guy with a realstic chance to compete. Orlando Brown Jr was a third rounder. You get the next Brown Jr and I'm happy.

I just don't want to see a bandaid, and a dirty one at that, like Villaneuva again, personally

Totally fair. Keep in mind that Villanueva had more experience at LT, and to be honest, as a swing Tackle, he's not that bad. Many teams in the league would kill to have Villaneuva as a backup LT or RT. I think in some cases the fan base has unrealistic expectations about how good depth should be and how much of it teams should or do have.

I agree that it would be great to get the next Brown. However, I'd point out that we just took a Tackle in the 3rd round two years ago, which is Tyre Phillips. Now some people would tell you projected more as a Guard than a Tackle, which is fair, but its still the point that we took two Tackles in the same rounds two years apart (although one was early and one was late), and they clearly have two different trajectories.

Which is my point. The later in the draft you get, the less and less of a guarantee it is that said player will be any good. Maybe they'll be Brown or Wagner. Or maybe they'll be Phillips or Alex Lewis or Jah Reid.

Ravens aren't going to pigeon hole themselves into have to getting a Tackle early. My guess is they'll do something in FA to possibly address it, OR, maybe James makes it back this year and gives them a glimpse into what he can do, and they'll go with James, Mekari and a draft pick. I just don't know, and neither does anybody else.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Totally fair. Keep in mind that Villanueva had more experience at LT, and to be honest, as a swing Tackle, he's not that bad. Many teams in the league would kill to have Villaneuva as a backup LT or RT. I think in some cases the fan base has unrealistic expectations about how good depth should be and how much of it teams should or do have.

I agree that it would be great to get the next Brown. However, I'd point out that we just took a Tackle in the 3rd round two years ago, which is Tyre Phillips. Now some people would tell you projected more as a Guard than a Tackle, which is fair, but its still the point that we took two Tackles in the same rounds two years apart (although one was early and one was late), and they clearly have two different trajectories.

Which is my point. The later in the draft you get, the less and less of a guarantee it is that said player will be any good. Maybe they'll be Brown or Wagner. Or maybe they'll be Phillips or Alex Lewis or Jah Reid.

Ravens aren't going to pigeon hole themselves into have to getting a Tackle early. My guess is they'll do something in FA to possibly address it, OR, maybe James makes it back this year and gives them a glimpse into what he can do, and they'll go with James, Mekari and a draft pick. I just don't know, and neither does anybody else.

I agree with the first, I’d love to have AV stick around at a reduced rate as our backup LT. He’s not been good, but if he had to step in for 6 weeks as a backup I’d be comfortable

 

[rmcjacket23]

I agree with the first, I’d love to have AV stick around at a reduced rate as our backup LT. He’s not been good, but if he had to step in for 6 weeks as a backup I’d be comfortable

I mean the problem is he's kind of already here on a reduced rate. He made $8M this year, which is probably higher than I would like, but he's also been a starter for pretty much the whole season.

Next year he's only due $4M. If you want a quality, veteran, swing tackle, $4M is an extremely reasonable price tag.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

I mean the problem is he's kind of already here on a reduced rate. He made $8M this year, which is probably higher than I would like, but he's also been a starter for pretty much the whole season.

Next year he's only due $4M. If you want a quality, veteran, swing tackle, $4M is an extremely reasonable price tag.

Ah I didn’t realize he was only here for 4m next year, with the cap increase I’d absolutely keep him around at that figure, which really reduces that desperate need for tackle depth.

 

[rossihunter2]

I would throw inside linebacker in there. Just not convinced they're happy with what they're getting there.

not a high value position - would have to be a great talent not to look at other positions

 

[rossihunter2]

The Ravens will never force their board. The consensus from the media regarding the opinion of NFL teams after the first round is that NFL teams did not view there to be another high round tackle after Darrisaw, so the Ravens weren't going to take a tackle to take one. Then, the Ravens didn't even have a second round pick and didn't pick again until almost pick 100.

One thing I remember reading and hearing consistently from the media was that teams were super high on Brandon Stephens and he would not last until the Ravens next pick, so he was pretty much a must take with that second third round pick.

With all that in mind, the Ravens first true opportunity to take a tackle came at, I believe, pick 94 and they ended up taking a guard. After that, it was pick 136. I think we can both agree the chances of getting a starting quality OT is really slim that late into the draft, so why force it?

But anyway- if I'm remembering correctly, the Ravens were in pretty constant contact with tackles before the draft, putting out feelers and getting guys lined up for when comp picks wouldn't be affected. I do believe the Ravens realized they needed help at tackle, and wanted help at tackle, but this wasn't a stacked OL draft by any means (from a media perspective; time will tell on the field) and things just didn't fall in a way that the Ravens could pick "their guy."

No, I do not expect a massive overhaul of the offensive line. Not a huge fan of Mason, but they have players who can play LG and if Bozeman gets re-signed, I think the Ravens are happy with Bozeman-Zeitler for another year. But I truly do believe the Ravens will prioritize a tackle, assuming James doesn't ball out here all of a sudden, because there's uncertainty surrounding both tackle spots.

I mean, tbf this was one of the most stacked tackle classes I can ever remember - it’s clear the ravens weren’t keen on some of them enough to spend a 1st rounder but a ton of guys came off the board in rounds 2 and 3 (including Spencer brown the pick before we took Cleveland and brown was really the last good one available)

it is disappointing that between the last 2 draft classes which were stacked with OT talent that we couldn’t get one

 

[rossihunter2]

Ah I didn’t realize he was only here for 4m next year, with the cap increase I’d absolutely keep him around at that figure, which really reduces that desperate need for tackle depth.

His cap number was 4m this year... it’s over 9m in 2022 and we save 6m by getting rid of him

he gone

 

[rmcjacket23]

Ah I didn’t realize he was only here for 4m next year, with the cap increase I’d absolutely keep him around at that figure, which really reduces that desperate need for tackle depth.

Well, yes and no. He's only getting paid $4M, which is reasonable. His cap hit is $9.25M, which isn't reasonable. That's our fault, not his, because we backloaded his deal.

That's the issue. The actual compensation you would pay him to return as a swing tackle is incredibly reasonable in my eyes. It's the fact that they structured the deal the way they did because of lower current year cap that he'll probably not return. Maybe you can get him to take like a small paycut, but you'll still have a $7M cap hit for a backup.

You can save $6M against the cap by cutting him, which is what they'll almost certainly do.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

His cap number was 4m this year... it’s over 9m in 2022 and we save 6m by getting rid of him

he gone

Totally misunderstanding the last post I replied to then lol

 

[RavensMania]

I mean the problem is he's kind of already here on a reduced rate. He made $8M this year, which is probably higher than I would like, but he's also been a starter for pretty much the whole season.

Next year he's only due $4M. If you want a quality, veteran, swing tackle, $4M is an extremely reasonable price tag.

yes, but we can also save 6m in cap space if we cut him, with 3.25m in dead cap. I think this really depends on how they replace him. Whether that be with James, a draft pick or free agency. I do agree that 4m in just salary alone is a good price. AV has no guaranteed salary next year so we have some time to figure that out. My guess is he will not be on the roster.

AV's cap number in 2021 was 4.75m and with the prorated bonus and roster bonus his total cap number is 9.25m in 2022.

 

[rmcjacket23]

yes, but we can also save 6m in cap space if we cut him, with 3.25m in dead cap. I think this really depends on how they replace him. Whether that be with James, a draft pick or free agency. I do agree that 4m in just salary alone is a good price. AV has no guaranteed salary next year so we have some time to figure that out. My guess is he will not be on the roster.

AV's cap number in 2021 was 4.5m and with the prorated bonus and roster bonus his total cap number is 9.25m in 2022.

Right I referenced that later on. The point is that it's not really entirely reasonable to broach Al for a paycut, considering he's not really overpaid for a Swing Tackle. Usually a guy with a big cap hit you can go back and ask for a paycut. I think he could get $3-4M a year on the open market, especially next year.

So for me, paycut seems unlikely. Its either you keep him or you don't.

 

[rmcjacket23]

Totally misunderstanding the last post I replied to then lol

Its compensation vs cap hit. They're not the same.

Lets say they're going to broach Al for a paycut. They're not asking for a paycut from $9.25M cap hit, because that's not what he's making. He's only making $4M. The $9.25M is because we structured the cap hit that way.

Asking him to take a paycut from $4M isn't super reasonable to me, and if I were him, I'd decline and hit the market.

The fallacy a lot of fans have is that a guy with a big cap number will just take a paycut to stay. Sometimes yes, but othertimes, like in this case, he's due to make like half as much money next year as he got paid this year, and he's not highly compensated to begin with.

So paycut isn't much of an option in my opinion, and if it is, its like $1M or something like that. Not really worth it.

Either we keep him at the current price, or we don't (likely we don't).

 

[RavensMania]

Its compensation vs cap hit. They're not the same.

Lets say they're going to broach Al for a paycut. They're not asking for a paycut from $9.25M cap hit, because that's not what he's making. He's only making $4M. The $9.25M is because we structured the cap hit that way.

Asking him to take a paycut from $4M isn't super reasonable to me, and if I were him, I'd decline and hit the market.

The fallacy a lot of fans have is that a guy with a big cap number will just take a paycut to stay. Sometimes yes, but othertimes, like in this case, he's due to make like half as much money next year as he got paid this year, and he's not highly compensated to begin with.

So paycut isn't much of an option in my opinion, and if it is, its like $1M or something like that. Not really worth it.

Either we keep him at the current price, or we don't (likely we don't).

I know the difference and still don't think we keep AV on the roster and agree, he won't take a paycut. Never said or even implied that he would.

 

[JoeyFlex5]

Its compensation vs cap hit. They're not the same.

Lets say they're going to broach Al for a paycut. They're not asking for a paycut from $9.25M cap hit, because that's not what he's making. He's only making $4M. The $9.25M is because we structured the cap hit that way.

Asking him to take a paycut from $4M isn't super reasonable to me, and if I were him, I'd decline and hit the market.

The fallacy a lot of fans have is that a guy with a big cap number will just take a paycut to stay. Sometimes yes, but othertimes, like in this case, he's due to make like half as much money next year as he got paid this year, and he's not highly compensated to begin with.

So paycut isn't much of an option in my opinion, and if it is, its like $1M or something like that. Not really worth it.

Either we keep him at the current price, or we don't (likely we don't).

Yeah I get that I just wasn’t getting that you were talking about his earnings rather than his cap hit

 

[rmcjacket23]

Yeah I get that I just wasn’t getting that you were talking about his earnings rather than his cap hit

Right. Earnings pretty much matter more when you're talking paycuts.

 

[Simba]

I'd be shocked if AV is back. $4M base but also a $2M roster bonus. They ain't paying that. This was always a 1 year deal dressed up as a 2 year deal.