The 2022 Offseason Thread

[UPennChem]

I don't know that Dline is dramatically better. For starters, I have no clue if Wolfe is going to play, but there's a lot of pessimism there, and I'm not sure he's a game changer anyway. We added Jones, who I like, but that's about it. Pierce may be an upgrade over Williams, but it's not a big one in my eyes. I don't think its a weak unit, but I don't think we've made dramatic shifts in pass rush ability from that group.

The depth at Corner is a major concern for me. I'm fine with playing more 3 safety looks, but literally any injury to Marlon or Peters is a big problem right now. Stephens is basically your 3rd corner, who I wouldn't trust to play outside much at this stage, and you've got a rookie 4th rounder as your #4. Last year, if everybody were healthy, you had Tavon and Averett as your #3 and #4 Corners. That's a huge step back in my opinion.

I'm hedging my bets on pass rush. A lot of optimism for Ojabo, but I have zero expectation he starts the season, and I expect he lands on PUP. I think you get any contribution from him like post-bye-week, and it'll be a success. And remember, that's basically with no offseason. I can't see him suiting up for training camp or the preseason at all.

For me, its simple... we traded depth at Corner and strength at WR for a significantly upgraded Oline and Safety position.

The good news is, if you focus on where we struggled last year, it was a) running the ball without using the QB and being a more balanced offense and b) giving up big plays in the passing game. I think our personnel decisions would hopefully address both of those.

But I don't think our passing game will be nearly as good, I think we may struggle to stretch the ball down field, and I have concerns about pass rush. I think our defense may have a lot more of a "bend but don't break" mentality, especially early in the year. I think teams will be able to move the ball on us, but hopefully limited in terms of scoring.

I agree with basically all of this. I'm not sure there is actual pessimism on Wolfe. I mean maybe he's lying but didn't the guy tweet a little while ago he is ready to go when people were saying he might retire? Even if he's not a quote unquote starter he helps the rotation a ton. Also Pierce should be significantly better than BWill. You get Campbell back, Madabuike has another year under his belt and you add Jones. At the beginning of the offseason that was a really weak unit. Now as you said it is solid.

Corner depth kinda sucks. It needs a veteran. Fortunately this can be remedied.

WR depth is fine but it's missing a starter. This may or may not be able to be remedied effectively.

EDGE is gonna get back Houston and Hayes. Then Ojabo will come back in November. Should be largely the same if not potentially better come the end of the season. Oweh will continue to improve.

So as you said, our run D should be better and our starting secondary will be much better. Those things should help out the pass rush hopefully long enough to get Ojabo in there whether that be this year or next.

Really you've just gotta be nervous about losing Marlon, Marcus, or Bateman to injury. Because those position groups as constructed right now can't afford those injuries. Every other position group actually has the depth to take blows.

 

[rossihunter2]

Man we just took so many steps forward this offseason its incredible.

QB stays the same but that's great. Lamar keeps working

RB is infinitely better
FB stays the same and that's great

LT should be a huge step forward if Ronnie's back
LG is likely Mekari to Tyree and should be better and at worse the same as last year.
C should hopefully be reasonably similar to BB, hoping he can be better.
RG is the same and that's great
RT should be improved by Moses
Finally there's actual all around depth on the line you can feel decent about

TEs got better! One of the two rookies will be better than Oliver and Boyle will be healthy.

WR took a step back by losing Marquise.

So on offense our run game is gonna dramatically improve from additions to the backfield and OL. TE play should also be better.
It all comes down to if we can just fill the Hollywood hole. I know Bateman is gonna take a step.

DL is dramatically better. You get Wolfe, Pierce and Jones in this new group.
EDGE is gonna be the same but then get infused by Ojabo when he comes back. Gotta hope Oweh takes a step.
ILB is the same and that's fine.
CB starters are gonna be improved, depth is probably a little worse.
S is dramatically improved.

We know what we need to do. Add a vet to stabilize the WR, CB, and EDGE rooms. Then that roster is ready to compete. Most of all though, stay healthy

I mostly agree
I actually think Linderbaum is an instant upgrade over Boze - he's a better pass protector straight away and is better in space too - probably lose some drive blocking ability but that wasnt a strength of BB anyway and he projects to be a better puller and we know he's a great at backside cut-offs - and on top of that he opens up the ability to add more zone plays to our offence where he's a weapon with his ability to reach 3techs and just generally is exceptional working on the horizontal plane

i think DL is better but i wouldnt say it's dramatic - not convinced wolfe is coming back, pierce may well be an upgrade over williams and we added jones and madubuike's my boy so i hope he takes that step to become a consistent pass rusher in year 3 - to me there's way more upside to this unit than in previous years but i wouldnt say that right now it's dramatically better - especially with calais another year older

im bullish on EDGE because im expecting a jump from Oweh and im expecting Hayes to become more involved because i really do think we found something with him last year even if he's only gonna play on obvious passing downs for now - that said... this entire EDGE group is coming off surgery outside of jaylon ferguson and justin houston's a free agent (albeit may well be returning) - and if we do get any benefit from Ojabo, it's gonna be very late in the season...

im not worried about LB but it's definitely a thin group - Board is an underrated loss - he was the LB who played most of the dime snaps last year once Queen stopped playing 100% of the snaps

CB is really thin still - armour-davis is a great addition and one of the few day 3 options who actually could become a starter... but im not even sure damarion williams is a corner (think he's more of a versatile DB with safety/nickel flexibility) - obviously it's a unit bolstered by the fact that stephens can play some cover snaps at corner and ardarius washington can do the same at nickel - think the thinness of this group is gonna dictate that we play a lot of 3 safety "big" nickel

 

[UPennChem]

I mostly agree
I actually think Linderbaum is an instant upgrade over Boze - he's a better pass protector straight away and is better in space too - probably lose some drive blocking ability but that wasnt a strength of BB anyway and he projects to be a better puller and we know he's a great at backside cut-offs - and on top of that he opens up the ability to add more zone plays to our offence where he's a weapon with his ability to reach 3techs and just generally is exceptional working on the horizontal plane

i think DL is better but i wouldnt say it's dramatic - not convinced wolfe is coming back, pierce may well be an upgrade over williams and we added jones and madubuike's my boy so i hope he takes that step to become a consistent pass rusher in year 3 - to me there's way more upside to this unit than in previous years but i wouldnt say that right now it's dramatically better - especially with calais another year older

im bullish on EDGE because im expecting a jump from Oweh and im expecting Hayes to become more involved because i really do think we found something with him last year even if he's only gonna play on obvious passing downs for now - that said... this entire EDGE group is coming off surgery outside of jaylon ferguson and justin houston's a free agent (albeit may well be returning) - and if we do get any benefit from Ojabo, it's gonna be very late in the season...

im not worried about LB but it's definitely a thin group - Board is an underrated loss - he was the LB who played most of the dime snaps last year once Queen stopped playing 100% of the snaps

CB is really thin still - armour-davis is a great addition and one of the few day 3 options who actually could become a starter... but im not even sure damarion williams is a corner (think he's more of a versatile DB with safety/nickel flexibility) - obviously it's a unit bolstered by the fact that stephens can play some cover snaps at corner and ardarius washington can do the same at nickel - think the thinness of this group is gonna dictate that we play a lot of 3 safety "big" nickel

Yep tbis makes sense. Try and add one more guy to the CB room and big Nickel sounds good to me. Work with what you got.

Why are we so down on Wolfe? Many guys had injuries they couldn't overcome last year. I think he's gonna be fine.

Not super worried about EDGE honestly.

Much more worried about receiver. Because going back to 2019 offense is great honestly. But an important part of that offense was Hollywood. We don't have that or anything close to that rn

 

[rossihunter2]

Yep tbis makes sense. Try and add one more guy to the CB room and big Nickel sounds good to me. Work with what you got.

Why are we so down on Wolfe? Many guys had injuries they couldn't overcome last year. I think he's gonna be fine.

Not super worried about EDGE honestly.

Much more worried about receiver. Because going back to 2019 offense is great honestly. But an important part of that offense was Hollywood. We don't have that or anything close to that rn

with wolfe it sounds more like the relationship with the coaches and the front office is broken more than anything else based on the recovery process etc. and the hip thing i think...

i think with WR, you're somewhat underestimating Bateman's ability to take the top off - he's not just an underneath possession receiver - obviously id love to add another vertical threat to the WR corps (and i think we will somehow) but Hollywood with a plate in his foot wasnt as explosive or fast as a healthy Bateman anyway and Bateman has the ability to post-up downfield too

it's not beyond the realm of possibilities though that we acquire a vet like Landry and spend the offseason working with Duvernay to develop his vertical route running - they focussed on his press release and his breakpoint technique last year and it did show up - if they can work with him to develop a double-move or refine a post route or a post-corner then he can mitigate some of that impact - but that is a question of development - and it would also mean that we put him in motion less at the snap because no matter how explosive you are, that reduces your ability to get vertical consistently - gonna have a look some more at some of his route-running this arvo and maybe come back with some thoughts about his ability to win vertically

 

[UPennChem]

with wolfe it sounds more like the relationship with the coaches and the front office is broken more than anything else based on the recovery process etc. and the hip thing i think...

i think with WR, you're somewhat underestimating Bateman's ability to take the top off - he's not just an underneath possession receiver - obviously id love to add another vertical threat to the WR corps (and i think we will somehow) but Hollywood with a plate in his foot wasnt as explosive or fast as a healthy Bateman anyway and Bateman has the ability to post-up downfield too

it's not beyond the realm of possibilities though that we acquire a vet like Landry and spend the offseason working with Duvernay to develop his vertical route running - they focussed on his press release and his breakpoint technique last year and it did show up - if they can work with him to develop a double-move or refine a post route or a post-corner then he can mitigate some of that impact - but that is a question of development - and it would also mean that we put him in motion less at the snap because no matter how explosive you are, that reduces your ability to get vertical consistently - gonna have a look some more at some of his route-running this arvo and maybe come back with some thoughts about his ability to win vertically

So like maybe their some relationship that's broken but I'm really not sure I buy it. The Ravens always liked him. He always liked the Ravens. He was thrilled to be here and had a really good season here. Just doesn't seem like the kinda guy to try and scam us out of a season. Either way he's still on the team and so I expect him to have a role. If things were really broken they could have moved on.

I definitely am undervaluing Batemans down field stuff and honestly that's recency bias because there was really never an opportunity to see it on the Ravens. Either one of them was injured or for the tiny overlap the OL was atrocious with no run game.

I definitely agree though you've kinda got two options. Bring in someone like Landry and make Duv your new Hollywood. Duv MAY be able to become a good vertical route runner of that's basically all he practices and is asked to do in addition to sweeps and short easy stuff.

You can also just attempt to bring in a Fuller or Slayton or someone who can more certainly play the Hollywood role and you keep things closer to how they are now.

If the OL is improved and the running game is improved the QB play will improve. Will Lamar firing on all cylinders with time to throw, Andrews and Bateman should be able to eat. If Proche is eating from the slot and Duv can just find a way to use his speed and improve some route running down field we may be able to field a strong offense.

 

[rossihunter2]

So like maybe their some relationship that's broken but I'm really not sure I buy it. The Ravens always liked him. He always liked the Ravens. He was thrilled to be here and had a really good season here. Just doesn't seem like the kinda guy to try and scam us out of a season. Either way he's still on the team and so I expect him to have a role. If things were really broken they could have moved on.

I definitely am undervaluing Batemans down field stuff and honestly that's recency bias because there was really never an opportunity to see it on the Ravens. Either one of them was injured or for the tiny overlap the OL was atrocious with no run game.

I definitely agree though you've kinda got two options. Bring in someone like Landry and make Duv your new Hollywood. Duv MAY be able to become a good vertical route runner of that's basically all he practices and is asked to do in addition to sweeps and short easy stuff.

You can also just attempt to bring in a Fuller or Slayton or someone who can more certainly play the Hollywood role and you keep things closer to how they are now.

If the OL is improved and the running game is improved the QB play will improve. Will Lamar firing on all cylinders with time to throw, Andrews and Bateman should be able to eat. If Proche is eating from the slot and Duv can just find a way to use his speed and improve some route running down field we may be able to field a strong offense.

with bateman, all you need to see is his college tape and then what he did to Marlon in training camp (at M&T) to see what he can be as a deep threat

with Duv, im not saying he's gonna replace hollywood at all, just dont think it's out of the question that he cant do some of those vertical things that hollywood did - but that's why im going to the tape right now to have a look-see

i definitely think Proche's the better receiver, route-runner and separator and it's notable that while Duvernay got way more snaps and about 100 more yds than Proche in 2021, Proche made his yards in massively fewer snaps and targets and also notable that with all Duvernay's usage and even the occasional big play, he's only eclipsed 50 total yards once (and 42 of those yards came on 1 jet sweep), has never had more than 4 catches in a game and has never had more than 60 total yards in a game where Proche has gone over 70 yds twice in 2021 alone when he only had 3 games with multiple targets and only 4 games where he had more than 20 snaps on offence

i also think that EDC's listing proche first when talking about the WRs in-house, as well as the fact that he called him "uncoverable" in practice is somewhat telling of what he thinks about james

if will fuller's the guy then that's great and i hope he stays healthy because he's a weapon but there's a reason he's still available and it's because of his health - also probably means that the ravens have faith in at least 1 of the 3 guys on the roster to step up and take over the WR3 role

i just think that jarvis landry is a culture fit and is a good short and intermediate separator and especially in the middle of the field where lamar's at his best

 

[RavensMania]

Yep tbis makes sense. Try and add one more guy to the CB room and big Nickel sounds good to me. Work with what you got.

Why are we so down on Wolfe? Many guys had injuries they couldn't overcome last year. I think he's gonna be fine.

Not super worried about EDGE honestly.

Much more worried about receiver. Because going back to 2019 offense is great honestly. But an important part of that offense was Hollywood. We don't have that or anything close to that rn

I think we are super underestimating the jump Bateman is going to have this offseason. Sure it's a huge loss losing Hollywood, but we've had worse WR rooms in the past. We will get by with a bunch of 13 personnel groupings.

 

[rmcjacket23]

So like maybe their some relationship that's broken but I'm really not sure I buy it. The Ravens always liked him. He always liked the Ravens. He was thrilled to be here and had a really good season here. Just doesn't seem like the kinda guy to try and scam us out of a season. Either way he's still on the team and so I expect him to have a role. If things were really broken they could have moved on.

I definitely am undervaluing Batemans down field stuff and honestly that's recency bias because there was really never an opportunity to see it on the Ravens. Either one of them was injured or for the tiny overlap the OL was atrocious with no run game.

I definitely agree though you've kinda got two options. Bring in someone like Landry and make Duv your new Hollywood. Duv MAY be able to become a good vertical route runner of that's basically all he practices and is asked to do in addition to sweeps and short easy stuff.

You can also just attempt to bring in a Fuller or Slayton or someone who can more certainly play the Hollywood role and you keep things closer to how they are now.

If the OL is improved and the running game is improved the QB play will improve. Will Lamar firing on all cylinders with time to throw, Andrews and Bateman should be able to eat. If Proche is eating from the slot and Duv can just find a way to use his speed and improve some route running down field we may be able to field a strong offense.

On Wolfe, I don't know what the end game is going to be, BUT, he's on the roster now for financial reasons.
a) his $2M base salary for the year became fully guaranteed on March 20th
b) It would actually cost us more cap space to cut him before June 1st than to keep him (current cap hit = $3.8M, dead cap for pre-June-1 release is $5.6M)
c) I'm not entirely convinced he could pass a physical right now, which makes it more difficult for a team to cut you. It's not impossible, but player would have to agree to an injury settlement, which I'm guessing he won't due, given he can collect his salary in full with or without playing a snap.

 

[UPennChem]

On Wolfe, I don't know what the end game is going to be, BUT, he's on the roster now for financial reasons.
a) his $2M base salary for the year became fully guaranteed on March 20th
b) It would actually cost us more cap space to cut him before June 1st than to keep him (current cap hit = $3.8M, dead cap for pre-June-1 release is $5.6M)
c) I'm not entirely convinced he could pass a physical right now, which makes it more difficult for a team to cut you. It's not impossible, but player would have to agree to an injury settlement, which I'm guessing he won't due, given he can collect his salary in full with or without playing a snap.

Ok we'll obviously be patient and see what happens, but I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

[UPennChem]

with bateman, all you need to see is his college tape and then what he did to Marlon in training camp (at M&T) to see what he can be as a deep threat

with Duv, im not saying he's gonna replace hollywood at all, just dont think it's out of the question that he cant do some of those vertical things that hollywood did - but that's why im going to the tape right now to have a look-see

i definitely think Proche's the better receiver, route-runner and separator and it's notable that while Duvernay got way more snaps and about 100 more yds than Proche in 2021, Proche made his yards in massively fewer snaps and targets and also notable that with all Duvernay's usage and even the occasional big play, he's only eclipsed 50 total yards once (and 42 of those yards came on 1 jet sweep), has never had more than 4 catches in a game and has never had more than 60 total yards in a game where Proche has gone over 70 yds twice in 2021 alone when he only had 3 games with multiple targets and only 4 games where he had more than 20 snaps on offence

i also think that EDC's listing proche first when talking about the WRs in-house, as well as the fact that he called him "uncoverable" in practice is somewhat telling of what he thinks about james

if will fuller's the guy then that's great and i hope he stays healthy because he's a weapon but there's a reason he's still available and it's because of his health - also probably means that the ravens have faith in at least 1 of the 3 guys on the roster to step up and take over the WR3 role

i just think that jarvis landry is a culture fit and is a good short and intermediate separator and especially in the middle of the field where lamar's at his best

Yeah I remember that play on Marlon and obviously his college play. I also agree Duv won't replace Hollywood but maybe he can as you say work to replace some parts. If the Ravens think that Duv can, then maybe you take a flier on Fuller because you're not actually going to rely on him.

I agree that EDC's statements were strong about Proche and I posted those efficiency metrics about the receivers last year. He was actually our second most efficient receiver after Hollywood last year. Duv was our worst. I'm really excited to see Proche get real snaps in this offense

 

[rossihunter2]

Yeah I remember that play on Marlon and obviously his college play. I also agree Duv won't replace Hollywood but maybe he can as you say work to replace some parts. If the Ravens think that Duv can, then maybe you take a flier on Fuller because you're not actually going to rely on him.

I agree that EDC's statements were strong about Proche and I posted those efficiency metrics about the receivers last year. He was actually our second most efficient receiver after Hollywood last year. Duv was our worst. I'm really excited to see Proche get real snaps in this offense

well you'll be somewhat unsurprised to hear that im not having a good time watching duvernay tape

still going want to do another game of snaps to triple-check but...
the 3 words i have written most often in my notes so far are: 1) motion 2) aimless and 3) stiff

im just not sure i see much to develop with duvernay

it is notable that every time i see 11 come on the field to replace 13, proche just looks more purposeful and tbh he looks more explosive (which is maybe a little surprising) than duvernay

 

[UPennChem]

well you'll be somewhat unsurprised to hear that im not having a good time watching duvernay tape

still going want to do another game of snaps to triple-check but...
the 3 words i have written most often in my notes so far are: 1) motion 2) aimless and 3) stiff

im just not sure i see much to develop with duvernay

it is notable that every time i see 11 come on the field to replace 13, proche just looks more purposeful and tbh he looks more explosive (which is maybe a little surprising) than duvernay

That's sad to read but as you said unsurprising. All I hope is that they give Proche his shot. He's earned it

 

[JoeyFlex5]

well you'll be somewhat unsurprised to hear that im not having a good time watching duvernay tape

still going want to do another game of snaps to triple-check but...
the 3 words i have written most often in my notes so far are: 1) motion 2) aimless and 3) stiff

im just not sure i see much to develop with duvernay

it is notable that every time i see 11 come on the field to replace 13, proche just looks more purposeful and tbh he looks more explosive (which is maybe a little surprising) than duvernay

Literally everything that made duvernay a round 4-6 pick in my eyes. 2 years later nothing has changed. And I don’t think it’s that proche looks more explosive, but much twitchier in all his movements, he can change direction a lot quicker, he threatens much more with a 2 way go and duvernay threatens vertically only, he just doesn’t do a good job separating on sharp breaks.

I don’t put much stock in either, they’re both WR4 at best imo. But I’d rather have duvernay threaten vertically from the slot than have proche in for possession style roles, I think we already have plenty of that skill set from andrews and Bateman.

 

[rossihunter2]

That's sad to read but as you said unsurprising. All I hope is that they give Proche his shot. He's earned it

there's promise to tylan to hope for a year 2 jump too
but as a receiver, right now, it's pretty clear that proche offers the most right now

my worry is that duvernay's role in the run game will prevent proche or tylan from winning snaps - duvernay was used an absolute ton in motion at the snap and also played a lot on running downs as a blocker (basically i hope we avoid boykin over-play syndrome lol)

duvernay's not devoid of useful production and a role in the offence - he's still dangerous off slants from the backside and of course when in motion he's dangerous in the short game - and of course he's an all-pro returner

but id like to see him drop down the depth chart at WR

 

[rossihunter2]

Literally everything that made duvernay a round 4-6 pick in my eyes. 2 years later nothing has changed. And I don’t think it’s that proche looks more explosive, but much twitchier in all his movements, he can change direction a lot quicker, he threatens much more with a 2 way go and duvernay threatens vertically only, he just doesn’t do a good job separating on sharp breaks.

I don’t put much stock in either, they’re both WR4 at best imo. But I’d rather have duvernay threaten vertically from the slot than have proche in for possession style roles, I think we already have plenty of that skill set from andrews and Bateman.

i do actually think proche's more explosive - duvernay's not particularly explosive off-the line or through his first few steps - duvernay's athletic prowess is in his flying-20 where he's absolutely rapid

but i also think it's a misnomer to think that duvernay's a vertical threat just because he ran a 4.39 40 - he's not... no one in the 3 games i've watched has been even remotely threatened by duvernay vertically in either man or zone, inside or outside...

it's not that duvernay doesn't do a good job separating on sharp breaks, it's that he doesn't do a good job separating at all - only reps ive been impressed with were slants vs press coverage where he won with his combination of play-strength/hands and quick feet through his release

 

[Davesta]

Goooooodbye chuckie. Have fun in New York.

 

[rossihunter2]

Goooooodbye chuckie. Have fun in New York.

i mean... not sure how chuck could wear the green dot at rookie minicamp lol...
i get it, and maybe hamilton does end up with the green dot in week 1 and this is the first step in that (by having him practise it from day 1) but this is completely meaningless at least until we get to OTAs

 

[Ellicottraven]

i mean... not sure how chuck could wear the green dot at rookie minicamp lol...
i get it, and maybe hamilton does end up with the green dot in week 1 and this is the first step in that (by having him practise it from day 1) but this is completely meaningless at least until we get to OTAs

Exactly. Who else would have the green dot? A whole lot of nothingburgers.

 

[Davesta]

i mean... not sure how chuck could wear the green dot at rookie minicamp lol...
i get it, and maybe hamilton does end up with the green dot in week 1 and this is the first step in that (by having him practise it from day 1) but this is completely meaningless at least until we get to OTAs

Hopium.

 

[cdp]

I swear I have never seen another fanbase being obsessed with "who wears the green dot"